Okay we need to talk about how wanted levels are handed out.

[NecasekO]

Now that I think of it, it really doesn't make sense. Lore wise the attacked ship is the one reporting the crime, making the attacker wanted. But how does the attacked ship know whether the attacker scanned it or not? So I have to agree that attacking a wanted ship should not make you wanted, regardless whether you finished scan or not. And there are plenty of cases where the wanted status is clear before scanning, like a ship that's fighting security or attacking a miner that you scanned previously and know to be clean.

By the way, did anyone test how it works with players? What happens when you attack a wanted player without scanning? What happens when you attack a player that has crimes turned off, without scanning?

 

[Stealthie]

That implies it's up to your readout and not the victim though, which means your own computer would be calling authority to report your crimes. As is now, it's the victim's computer that is calling the authority. The error is that wanted ships are calling the authority just because you haven't positively identified them, when they probably would not even if you haven't scanned them. Some ships can easily be destroyed before you even finish an ID scan. Imagine the friction if people were then presented with a full 7 day bounty instead due to murder. What we have now is letting you know before you even get to that point that you're making a mistake, even if lawbreakers probably shouldn't or wouldn't report you.

Meh,

That's all justification after-the-fact.
In reality, the game is simply demanding that you go through a procedure before opening fire and then penalising you if you don't.

If it was changed so you could fire at anybody and only get punished for shooting at innocent targets, it'd be more realistic.
Shoot at a random target.
Target turns out to be outlaw and you don't get a fine... because the target had a bounty on them so the kill was justifiable.
Target turns out to be innocent and you get punished.... because the target was law-abiding and you were reported for your attack.

It's the current system, whereby you could take out the biggest criminal in the galaxy - and be awarded a giant bounty for doing so - and yet still end-up wanted as a result of not completing a scan before you open fire which is out of whack.

Don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying there's any justification for shooting at innocent ships and we do have the tools to help us figure that out so there's no excuse for it.
I just think it's a bit silly that you can get a fine for not following correct procedure even if you decide to attack a ship which is, say, attacking another clean ship.

 

[MDHansen]

Spoiler

Those git gud guys haven't a clue. They need to get off their high horses and get real. I'd like to see them miss this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRewG0WxaZU

Hi. I'm sorry to be that guy, but 12 seconds in to the clip I could see him coming. CZ and RES, you really need to keep an eye on your surroundings. I am also gonna be that guy to say I've never accidently shot something in said areas.
I do think though that npc's should be more aware of their surroundings, cause he should see you coming aswell... #MoM #SJA

 

[Dbrn47]

I just think it's a bit silly that you can get a fine for not following correct procedure even if you decide to attack a ship which is, say, attacking another clean ship.

Guess I'm just used to the idea from the military and similar jobs that require that sort of discretion and procedure. I can tell you that my unit failed during a training exercise on the way to Iraq because one soldier couldn't control his trigger, which lead to many opening fire, which lead to many unnecessary 'casualties'. Good thing it was just an exercise with blank rounds! Perhaps it's not fair for a video game to treat it with the same seriousness though. [big grin] It's fair to say it needs some work and the ideas that are flowing are going in a good direction, but again, we shouldn't be able to fire indiscriminately based on assumption either.

 

[Dbrn47]

By the way, did anyone test how it works with players? What happens when you attack a wanted player without scanning? What happens when you attack a player that has crimes turned off, without scanning?

I believe the system follows the same rule, someone would have to test it to be sure as I have not, but the rule seems to follow identification status instead of crime reporting status. The game assumes that you are committing an assault since you technically aren't aware of the ships status. Which would indicate your ship is self reporting. If this is incorrect, then its definitely janky and further indicates that we don't follow the same rules.

Maybe "possible crime" could be a new status that clears to a fine or progresses to bounty after full identification as V'larr mentioned and a system like Marc has suggested, but there need to be some sort of other system to either protect or further penalize murders that could come from this sort of thing. I don't think "but I thought.." is a viable excuse for the game.

 

[V'larr]

I believe the system follows the same rule, someone would have to test it to be sure as I have not, but the rule seems to follow identification status instead of crime reporting status. The game assumes that you are committing an assault since you technically aren't aware of the ships status. Which would indicate your ship is self reporting. If this is incorrect, then its definitely janky and further indicates that we don't follow the same rules.

Maybe "possible crime" could be a new status that clears to a fine or progresses to bounty after full identification as V'larr mentioned and a system like Marc has suggested, but there need to be some sort of other system to either protect or further penalize murders that could come from this sort of thing. I don't think "but I thought.." is a viable excuse for the game.

I don't see why there'd need to be something further? If your target is wanted, your murder of them is justifiable. If they are clean, you get a bounty. The fine applies to shooting an unscanned-but-wanted ship, as opposed to going full-out bounty-wanted-status.

 

[M00ka]

I think this covers the discussion

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Before anyone says it.

I regularly get assault bounties.
I do have spacial awareness, situational awareness, trigger discipline, etc.

However, my missiles do not.

But, mistakes happen, and I use the time to go off and rearm/repair, then return all fresh.
Missiles aside, I very rarely actually shoot a cop, or unscanned target.
However, missiles can do all sorts of odd things, and once released, you can't stop them. Lol
I've even shot myself multiple times with them.


No amount of changes to crime will prevent cops from shooting you, because you shot them.

You're in command of your vessel, take responsibility for your actions and deal with it.

Learn to overcome tunnel vision.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[V'larr]

Before anyone says it.

I regularly get assault bounties.
I do have spacial awareness, situational awareness, trigger discipline, etc.

However, my missiles do not.

But, mistakes happen, and I use the time to go off and rearm/repair, then return all fresh.
Missiles aside, I very rarely actually shoot a cop, or unscanned target.
However, missiles can do all sorts of odd things, and once released, you can't stop them. Lol
I've even shot myself multiple times with them.


No amount of changes to crime will prevent cops from shooting you, because you shot them.

You're in command of your vessel, take responsibility for your actions and deal with it.

Learn to overcome tunnel vision.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Preemptively defending a clean ship from a space-murderer I haven't scanned yet is not tunnel vision.

 

[Scoob]

My friend and I used to fly in a wing from time to time. He was quite trigger happy, so often he'd hit a ship either accidentally, or he'd forget to allow the scan to complete. He only had a handful of in-game hours at the time, so was still learning. Anyway, whenever he made a mistake I became wanted too, as we were in a wing.

So, why doesn't this happen to AI Wings automatically? I mean, when my friend made his (annoyingly regular) mistakes, I wasn't later scanned then attacked, no, I was often instantly attacked, especially if the ship had turrets. Shouldn't NPC's be playing by the same rules in this regard?

Basically, me and my friend are in a Wing, he shoots an innocent, or a wanted without scanning, and we're both insta-attacked. Not scanned. Do the NPC's now shooting me - whose done nothing wrong - now get their own wanted level for doing this? Not that I've seen.

So, an NPC in a Wing attacks a player, who has maybe also scanned them to confirm their Wanted status. Assuming the player is Clean, why aren't the NPC's wingmates able to be attacked with impunity like I was when things are reversed?

Now, I've only just returned to the game quite recently, so I might be missing something here. However, in my experience if my Wing mate screws up, I'm instantly Wanted too and am attacked without being scanned. Indeed in large groups I've had five or six ships suddenly start shooting me the very second he makes his mistake. Consider also how the guys who turn on me are often green, allied dudes!

So, while I know I need to be mindful of my surroundings in combat - I am, I don't accidentally hit the wrong target, nor engage before scanning - for me to get tagged as "kill on site" within the instance for a mistake of my Wing mate seems unfair if the same isn't true for a hostile NPC's Wing mates too.

Scoob.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Preemptively defending a clean ship from a space-murderer I haven't scanned yet is not tunnel vision.

I was referring to shooting security vessels.

It is rather annoying if you're RPing and trying to protect miners (or whatever), and one is taking a beating from pirates, but you have to wait for the scan to complete to save them. Lol
Although, if a ship is only going to last 5~ seconds, then you was probably not going to save them anyway.

Still, I'd be quite happy if criminals got flagged as soon as they committed a crime.

Maybe it could be a sort of 'Security License' you can earn from the locals, when allied, and clean, which when activated, will report crimes to you, aswell as security.
So if a pirate does attack a clean ship in front of you, it'll auto resolve as wanted.

I might chuck that in the suggestions box. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Stealthie]

Before anyone says it.

I regularly get assault bounties.
I do have spacial awareness, situational awareness, trigger discipline, etc.

However, my missiles do not.

Far better to just always blame it on your SLF pilot. That's what I always do.

Last time, she fired a stray shot at a Clean Python.
Alas, the Python took offence and decided to shoot back.
I was frantically trying to recall the fighter but an Elite NPC can do quite a bit of damage in a short time.
Eventually I got the fighter back aboard and I thought I'd escaped with only the 8 minute assault bounty.

And then a bunch of outlaw NPCs finished the job and my bounty got upgraded to 7 days for murder. [sad]

 

[Straga]

This can happen to anyone. More than once I've been in a RES when a police Anaconda boosts right across my bow, eating alot of multicannon shots aimed at the pirate I was ACTUALLY shooting at.
The same thing happens in HRES when the pirates sometimes decide to attack each other. I'll be shooting at an Anaconda when a random Sidewinder that I didn't bother to scan gets too close and eats half a clip because he is sitting on top of my weapon mount.

 

[galahad2069]

I understand everything that people were saying in this thread about situational awareness, trigger-happiness and suchlike. Basically I have nothing against being fined for accidental friendly fire, it is actually a kind of simulation of reality, something that makes sense.

What I fail to understand is the following:
If I am shooting at a dangerous criminal with 400000 Cr bounty on his head, alongside with a bunch of cops in a Res site, and I suddenly get a 400 Cr worth of bounty for accidentally hitting the shields of an unscanned vessel with a single laser pulse (not its hull, only the shields, which means virtually zero damage to the innocent ship), the cops all of a sudden lose all their interest in their previous, high bounty target, and every last one of them in the entire Res site begins to pursue me for that wretched 400 Cr bounty as if their very subsistence depended on it.

And they don't even need to scan me first. It seems that a single misplaced laser pulse can make me the most vicious villain of the Galaxy, the number one KOS target. That is ridiculous.

 

[galahad2069]

This can happen to anyone. More than once I've been in a RES when a police Anaconda boosts right across my bow, eating alot of multicannon shots aimed at the pirate I was ACTUALLY shooting at.

As a matter of fact, I've already tried to make use of this stupid friendly fire rule to my own advantage.
The other day I was testing my new gaming mouse with fixed weapons on my Vulture while BHing in a Res site, when a Master FDL CMDR appeared and began to finish off some of my targets, "stealing" every other bounty from me. I'm not really in need of credits, but when the second high-bounty Anaconda was scored to him thanks to a lucky last shot, it was getting a little bit annoying. I invited him to wing, but he did not even bother to say "no thanks", so I began to tail his ship and scanned him. He turned out to be clean, and I really did not want to become wanted in that system, so I thought to myself "what if he shot me first?", and deliberately flew between him and his target. When I made sure that he had hit my shields more than once, I turned around ready to open fire at him, but he boosted away and low waked out before I could retarget him to see if he was really wanted. I could not pursue him beacuse the kids distracted me, so I can never be sure what happened exactly (a lone Vulture cannot appear THAT threatening for a FDL after all), but since it was a HiRes site, it was most likely the bunch of cops that convinced him to go away.

 

[Faded Glory]

Preemptively defending a clean ship from a space-murderer I haven't scanned yet is not tunnel vision.

I'm asking genuinely, how do you know you are defending a clean ship?

Do you look at the fight going on and assume that ship 1 is the good guy and ship 2 is the bad guy? Do you scan one of the ships randomly, see they are clean, assume then that the other ship is a wanted criminal and open fire?

Why is it so challenging in either of those situations to wait the 4 seconds to complete the scan on the presumed wanted ship to determine its status?

This discussion is now some way off the original friendly fire mistake, and I do understand that you feel that more 'realism' would improve things for you. While I don't combat all the time, very rarely hang around RES or nav beacons, I have done my share, I'm ranked Deadly. However, regarding your role playing defending innocent ships being attacked would eventually require the game to understand a player's intent, which it does not, and I'm guessing cannot. The game can only ever know what you did, not why you did it, so there would have to be some link between the two ships already fighting and the player. If the player has scanned one ship, found them to be clean, then the attacking ships could be instantly identified as wanted as soon as targeted, the same way a ship that has shot you will be, and that would be fine, problem solved. I'm guessing that because there is no direct link to random ships until you interact with them, by scanning or shooting them, that's probably not possible.

Honestly though, and I mean no insult to you, it's so trivially simple to finish a scan on a ship once you've targeted it. That 4 seconds is rarely the matter of life or death for a clean ship you are trying to defend, if they are seconds from destruction, someone else wading in is unlikely to make a difference. the only time I ever feel that sense of urgency is if I'm trying to kill steal a bounty.

I don't believe the game can deal with grey areas, and once you open the door to having the possibility of shooting an unscanned ship, you will unleash floods of complaints when players do end up with bounties, claiming they shouldn't have, because the ship they shot must have been wanted. His wing mate was...

People clamour for consequences in the game. There's a consequence for shooting a ship that you don't know the status of. But we don't like the consequences...?

 

[Faded Glory]

What I fail to understand is the following:

People often claim that friendly fire and a 400 credit bounty is a death sentence. It's not...

The first time it happened to me, a long time ago, I panicked, fumbled around a bit, but didn't leave quickly, so I was sent to the rebuy screen. After that, I knew to stow hard points, boost away from the battle and wake away. Never been destroyed that way since.

Again, IMO, while the fact that the authority all turn their attention on you isn't particularly realistic, it's consequence and challenge. If the player is allowed to hang around and kill steal the bounty despite shooting the police by mistake, there's not really much consequence, and the challenge is to be able to get away without being destroyed. It's not much of a challenge, but you do have to make a quick getaway.

 

[galahad2069]

People often claim that friendly fire and a 400 credit bounty is a death sentence. It's not...

When exactly did I say it was?

It's not much of a challenge.
But it is utterly unimmersive, that's all.

 

[Faded Glory]

When exactly did I say it was?

It's not much of a challenge.
But it is utterly unimmersive, that's all.

No you didn't.

I agree it's not much of a challenge. Personally, I just recognize it's gameplay mechanics to try and provide a bit of consequence for shooting clean ships. Immersive? I struggle to understand why all those wanted criminals keep showing up for players (and system authority) to endlessly destroy, but I try not to let it get to me too much...

 

[galahad2069]

I'm asking genuinely, how do you know you are defending a clean ship?

Do you look at the fight going on and assume that ship 1 is the good guy and ship 2 is the bad guy? Do you scan one of the ships randomly, see they are clean, assume then that the other ship is a wanted criminal and open fire?

It you know that the one being shot at is clean (because you had scanned it before, that's how), then by the very rules of the ED crime system you can be 100% sure that the other one is wanted. The information your scanner can give you about the assaulter in this situation is completely redundant. Why are you forced to wait for this piece of information to be displayed, if you do know the only possible result of the scan before you press the button?