Credits ... Are we making too much or too little?

[StarfireIX]

I fall on the side of FAR too much! .. Every day I see people complaining they are not making Billions in 20 mins (OK that's an exaggeration) .. but to see people moan that making a million in ten mins is "an Insult" is bizarre for me, an old Elite fan. Elite has always been about the long haul, Progression and the journey, now all I am hearing is "It's all a grind"

The progression is so messed up that in 1 hour you can move from a sidewinder to a far more capable ship .. and still i see people saying it's too slow!
I can't be the only one who remembers the joy of getting military lasers or that energy bomb and feeling that I had achieved something. I feel that credits are far too easy to come by now that the game is losing it's original identity as a long haul game.

FD please don't increase the progression speed anymore, I bet a lot of players have never seen the inside of a Hauler.
I get that people want things quickly, but that has never been Elites way.

The topic is a very long-discussed one over the years, as it roughly depends on how the developers want progression for the game. Initially, those who start the game will earn small credits to afford small ships. Then once at a higher level of rank, you earn more money to afford higher-tier ships. This should've been a thing since day 1 of release, however RNG has been an issue for that for both high and low-tier CMDRs. I believe Frontier are working on a new mission system, but was broken shortly after 2.4 release due to the money hotspot of Rhea passenger missions. They're working on fixing the system, and hopefully should see more improved QoL changes in the near future. My concept for the money grind should be something like this:

Combat Rank	From: (CR)	To: (CR)
Harmless	30,000	100,000
Mostly Harmless	50,000	200,000
Novice	200,000	300,000
Competent	300,000	500,000
Expert	500,000	1,000,000
Master	1,000,000	3,000,000
Dangerous	2,000,000	4,000,000
Deadly	3,000,000	5,000,000
Elite	5,000,000	8,000,000

The profits may vary for Trade and Exploration as well, but could be applied in same practice as the others. If you are ranked at Expert (for example), you will not get lower Credit missions under that rank. The higher reputation you have with a faction, the increased chance you will receive a mission higher than your current rank with a better reward and higher risk. If you are ranked Competent or so and you see an Elite mission, it may require a wing if the target is tougher than you think. This I think would offer a much more lucrative and encouraged Quality of Life change for those going Solo or in a wing.

 

[NW3]

I know I will never be a billionaire in this game, I have too much fun doing things that don't make money like roaming around on a planet for half a day just cos I can or investigating USS's just incase there is something interesting there.

As long as your credits are increasing, you'll get to be a billionaire, eventually. I've spent months at a time, doing engineering, trying to have a Thargoid encounter, and generally farting around, basically earning nothing. I still wound up with over a billion, in a couple of years, using NO exploits.

 

[Mrat13]

Thing is, ideally that'd mean setting up a whole pile of other things too.

You could do it "on the cheap" just by adding it as an option to the "pilot's lounge" and giving you a choice ranging from newbies in Eagles to Elites in FdLs.

To do it "properly", though, you'd probably want it set up so you could hire all the NPCs in the current way, train them all up by flying an SLF for you and then actually buy a bunch of ships, upgrade them and engineer them and then allocate an NPC to each ship.

And that WOULD create a helluva credit-sink and allow you to travel around with an entourage of badass dudes in Vultures, FdLs or whatever.

Yes. That would make more sense. We don't just have the NPC bring their own SLF, we let them use ours. Same should apply to NPC wings we could hire, because real NPCs don't end up in a better ship because their elite, do they (looking at you, elite sidewinders).

But that's just the rational way of doing it. Who knows what crazy scheme Fdev would cook up for us.

 

[playfuldreamer]

Let's think of it this way, shall we?

If I started playing at launch or before, it is very likely that I have a comfortable bank account which allows me to fly any ship I please and outfit them according to my desires. If I started playing a year ago--or less--I'm likely still earning my way to one of the top ships and have to cut corners on outfitting because I cannot afford the 10% loss through experimenting. Now, Frontier decides that payouts are too high so they lower them. Well, the former player isn't going to be bothered by this as they don't need the credits to continue playing comfortably. But the latter player, the one still working to build themselves a nest egg, well they suddenly discover that it's going to take even longer for them to reach their goal. And each time the payouts get lowered, it only adds time to their earning potential.

Basically, all changing credit payouts does is punish players who started late and/or haven't made use of (or abused) exploits.

Payouts for bulk and short-distance passenger missions have tanked post-2.4 to a level that I find infuriating. So I've had to completely change my playstyle because the way I chose to blaze my own trail is suddenly not paying enough to make the time spent worthwhile.

 

[Han Zulu]

That'd be a terrific idea except that, erm, it's not really like there's much need for it.

I mean, who's going to burn a heap of credits to hire a wing of NPCs for CP at a CG when they can just, y'know, play in Solo/Mobius instead?

I don't mean to mock though.
It really WOULD be a terrific thing... if they could figure out a way to make it useful.

Perhaps they could expand massacre missions into being ongoing things where you have to kill baddies in a system for, say, an entire week and you could hire NPCs to help?

Well, it could mean that they increased the difficulty of pirates interdicting again (which was an issue last year and was nerfed to smitherines). Now, it would become an economical thing to defend yourself.

Well, I don't know. It was just a thought.

 

[Wulfram Carbide]

I didn't find it too slow for me. Not generally, anyway. I basically just went on moderately lengthy expedition in my Type 6 and when I got back never really felt I had to worry about money again

I find the real grind is in other things, because there's less freedom to choose how to get them.

 

[Han Zulu]

I'd hire an NPC wing just for the sake of having an entourage. They don't really have to do anything, just look mean.

You're saying there should be paintjobs we could buy for the NPC wing as well. Tiger jaws and such.

Thing is, ideally that'd mean setting up a whole pile of other things too.

You could do it "on the cheap" just by adding it as an option to the "pilot's lounge" and giving you a choice ranging from newbies in Eagles to Elites in FdLs.

To do it "properly", though, you'd probably want it set up so you could hire all the NPCs in the current way, train them all up by flying an SLF for you and then actually buy a bunch of ships, upgrade them and engineer them and then allocate an NPC to each ship.

And that WOULD create a helluva credit-sink and allow you to travel around with an entourage of badass dudes in Vultures, FdLs or whatever.

Basically, train and use these NPCs for combat with some boss thargoid.

 

[Flavourless]

I don't really understand why people worry about that. Everything I do makes me profit and as long as you play it just a bit safe its impossible to lose money.

Heck, I was stranded on a planet in a srv for 3 weeks and even that made me profit. just a tiny little bit, but still

That is exactly what is wrong
The game should hit you with setbacks, losses on some endeavours, and possible backwards progression. Not just by losing ships, but also by sour trade markets and economic depressions.

Always being a win is just so meh!

 

[Calcilis]

We never know.... TC might have already made billions and just want to screw everyone else.

Same goes for everyone else who complains about big money making stuff.

how do i know you don have billions already as credits or assets and just want to make sure no one else get billions

 

[NW3]

If I started playing at launch or before, it is very likely that I have a comfortable bank account which allows me to fly any ship I please and outfit them according to my desires. If I started playing a year ago--or less--I'm likely still earning my way to one of the top ships and have to cut corners on outfitting because I cannot afford the 10% loss through experimenting. Now, Frontier decides that payouts are too high so they lower them.

Granted players that have been at it for a couple of years probably have a "comfortable bank account", but they earned it the hard way (at least a lot of them did). FD has continually raised the mission payouts over time. Aside from fixing some exploits, money has never been as easy to earn as it is today.

The "old timers" aren't trying to "ruin the fun"; they just want the game to have reasonable dynamics.

The thing is, credits are the least useful measure of your progress. I'm not sure why so many people seem to think they are the only meaningful measurement. I think people should concentrate on having fun, not their bank account. The big ships aren't all that much fun, imo. I've flown them all (in betas) and I have no desire for any of the "big 3". Flying my AspX is a lot more fun, than a big, slow ship.

 

[M00ka]

Calls for self-nerf and credit sinks I can respect. What I don't abide is calls for changes in progression (which affects EVERYONE) because someone has 4 or 5 Cutters, 3 or 4 Corvettes and doesn't know what else to do with their time or money.

I've been playing this game for over 2 years... at my own pace. I work full time, and life calls so I do have responsibilities to attend to when I'm not playing ED.

I've yet to see 100 million credits at one time, let alone a billion. I've managed to scrape together enough to buy a few decent ships, like a Python (at one time, I sold it and went back to my AspX) and a tricked out DBX so I can do some long-haul Exploration, etc. Sure, I've never seen the inside of a Hauler... but I HAVE seen the inside of an Adder, Eagle, Viper MkIII and Mk IV, Cobra III (which I still use) and other ships, too.

What gets me is the pretentiousness of people who think their perspective must be the only perspective- and that they speak for everyone in the game or something.

There's this guy I knew years ago, who would go buy a game- then download cheat codes before he even began to play the game. Then he would complain because it was too easy and now he was bored.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps?

Well said and duly REP'd.

There seems to be this persistent myth in the game that you can only succeed in any endeavour if you have the biggest ship in the game. But IMHO, everyone plays the game to their personal paradigm. For me, I have what many will call a very inadequate stable of ships:

Vulture (Phoenix Hunter), perfect for BH and anything that requires a punch
Courier (Phoenix Prince), used for those missions that speed is required but capable enough to defend it's quite well
ASP Explorer (Phoenix Nest), trader, 88T is enough for me to make a decent profit and it's size allows me to land anywhere
Cobra MKIII (Phoenix Explorer), cheap, now with a decent jump range and capable of doing I require of it.

I have no real desire to own one of the big three, hell the biggest I 'might' end up buying is a Python or Clipper and even then I am having a hard time convincing myself that I need one. Yes I have sufficient credits to buy one now, but since I already have the ships I need to perform the tasks I like, the purchases are still on the backburner.

But so many think they can only enjoy the game if they have the biggest, baddest ship without any thought on if it dovetails into their playing style. I wonder how many new players trolled the forums to find the current exploit and jumped from a Cobra to an Anaconda then realised they had no idea how to fly something that big, that they couldn't land everywhere and then discovered they had missed half the things to do because they were that focused on the exploit and the dreams of power and domination in the Anaconda. Add to the regular posts of players complaining they bought some mega ship, but can't afford the rebuy or didn't realise how expensive it is to kit out!

I like the slow progression, I like to earn that next level, it makes whatever you did to get there worthwhile.

 

[Stealthie]

Granted players that have been at it for a couple of years probably have a "comfortable bank account", but they earned it the hard way (at least a lot of them did). FD has continually raised the mission payouts over time. Aside from fixing some exploits, money has never been as easy to earn as it is today.

The "old timers" aren't trying to "ruin the fun"; they just want the game to have reasonable dynamics.

A fair point.

I think some people see "exploits" and conclude that people who've been playing longer will have accrued credits purely due to extended opportunities to use those "exploits".

The reality, of course, is that although FDev are attempting to nerf the "exploits" they've also consistently increased regular payments at the same time.
New players might not have access to the same "exploits" as veterans but they DO have access to newbie missions which pay, literally, hundreds of times more than they used to - as well as still having access to current "exploits" as well.

The thing is, credits are the least useful measure of your progress. I'm not sure why so many people seem to think they are the only meaningful measurement. I think people should concentrate on having fun, not their bank account. The big ships aren't all that much fun, imo. I've flown them all (in betas) and I have no desire for any of the "big 3". Flying my AspX is a lot more fun, than a big, slow ship.

To be fair, though, credits ARE the way you get "stuff" and "stuff" is a reasonable measure of achievement in the game.
Sure, you can try and tell people who've bought a spaceship game that there's no point in coveting the biggest spaceships in the game but nobody's going to believe you.

And, besides, the biggest ships in the game ARE terrific fun and well worth obtaining, IMO.

 

[Cmdr Lucca1985]

OP credits should be turned up. The only argument against it is that veterans wont be king of the hill anymore. The narratives and the exploration and the cgs and the engineers and the galaxy as it stands would not be affected in the slightest by wider higher end ship ownership. It is known that fdls can take out anacondas and clippers corvettes so it doesnt matter who has what. Where it does matter is when players are locked out of game elements by unfair rebalancing after others have engaged in lucky exploitation (ps i say exploit away btw). You'd still have the tryhards engineering their ships to super duper A class and the racers and the buckyball boys. Higher payouts means more enjoyment because it means more ships for players and more chances to create say my dream of a super multipurpose annie plus more ships means more skins being sold for real cash on the website woo hoo. More cash makes the game more fun and stops it becoming a box of snobs

 

[Stealthie]

OP credits should be turned up. The only argument against it is that veterans wont be king of the hill anymore. The narratives and the exploration and the cgs and the engineers and the galaxy as it stands would not be affected in the slightest by wider higher end ship ownership. It is known that fdls can take out anacondas and clippers corvettes so it doesnt matter who has what. Where it does matter is when players are locked out of game elements by unfair rebalancing after others have engaged in lucky exploitation (ps i say exploit away btw). You'd still have the tryhards engineering their ships to super duper A class and the racers and the buckyball boys. Higher payouts means more enjoyment because it means more ships for players and more chances to create say my dream of a super multipurpose annie plus more ships means more skins being sold for real cash on the website woo hoo. More cash makes the game more fun and stops it becoming a box of snobs

3 weeks ago I was down to my last Cr100m. I now have Cr1bn again.

People aren't saying you don't need more opportunities because they're trying to stop you progressing.
They're saying it because you already have the means to progress.

 

[Cmdr Lucca1985]

3 weeks ago I was down to my last Cr100m. I now have Cr1bn again.

People aren't saying you don't need more opportunities because they're trying to stop you progressing.
They're saying it because you already have the means to progress.

Time is a factor... that concept is fast becoming a dirty phrase on here. But its true.

 

[Stealthie]

Time is a factor...

No, it isn't.

 

[Mrat13]

Sure, I've never seen the inside of a Hauler... but I HAVE seen the inside of an Adder, Eagle, Viper MkIII and Mk IV, Cobra III (which I still use) and other ships, too.

Ok, went back to find this comment.

What is it with people avoiding hauler, either skipping to the adder or the cobra 3?

Ok, I might of gotten out of the sidewinder as fast as possible, but, to be fair, that cockpit is horrendous, I can't see a thing out of it, and the hauler is so easy to get and make money way faster that is was a no brainer.

The hauler isn't for everyone, it definitely feels like a Korean hatchback, but I still own one as a taxi, purely because it's a quirky, underappreciated ship that does early game hauling missions well enough till you get a bigger ship like the cobra 3.

And it's the first ship, and for a while the best ship, to look out at the world at, till I'd say the type 6. I love a good sized window with no overly sized bars obstructing the view, and the hauler has that.

Seriously, everyone should try the hauler, even just as a taxi. You'll be surprised at the smile on your face while flying this quirky gem of a ship.

Time is a factor... that concept is fast becoming a dirty phrase on here. But its true.

No, it isn't.

The difference is whether you have a life outside of the game or not....

Like most people on here do....

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Firstly, I don't really have a stake in the question asked - raised or lowered, credit reward will not change how I play one bit. I played for over two years under one account, all the way to stupendously (but not record-breakingly) rich Cutter-driver, and just recently started another account. I've just passed through the 'early game' stage and am where I want to be there, as I'm no 'collector' type.

It's a complex topic though.

Braben said in the past that one of the chief things they didn't expect was so many people staying in the same place, doing the same thing. If you take a little time to consider that, it would seem to have a number of consequences.

- From FDev's end 'reward' will be considered as averaged out across a number of/all activities, not held to an average across every activity. If you expect players to change activity often, it's not necessary for each of these activities to be at the same reward level or even close to it.

- The statement itself suggests that there's a whole lot of players sticking to one career/activity, and certainly my observations match that. Early in Powerplay, for example, some of us were absolutely stunned at the number of people who sat in e.g. Gende to bounty hunt and did little or nothing else. Those players, if and when their chosen activity is one of those not high on the scale of reward, are going to naturally feel at least a little 'cheated'.
I get it, to some extent. While I do a wide variety of things, there are two or three activities I detest and if reward were much higher in those than in my own activities, it'd be annoying.

So the end result very often I think is a misunderstanding between two types of players. You have one side complaining about low rewards, and the other side looking on perplexed (and sometimes labeling the first group with "I win button" accusations and so on), because the first is really talking about the reward inside their chosen range of activities. People who range across a higher number activities see correspondingly less of a problem.
It's tough because you can't really use a wide brush for all the people who only choose one or a few activities. Everything from hardcore career-centric RPers participating (or trying to) heavily in the narrative, to the fellow who *only* enjoys CZing with friends - even ignoring the quasi-mythical player who actually just wants an I-win button and to progress through the whole shipyard in hours. If the latter exist, they only represent one side of the issue. The others are harder to label and deride.

Reward being too *high*...I can't really begin to touch that. Too high for who? For what? There's no endgame. Eventually, you'll have more money than you have things to do with it. It seems meaningless for me to venture an opinion on how long that should take, as it always depends on what you want to own or do. I don't want to own a fleet. Many do. On it goes.
FDev are who I leave that to. If they have a progression rate in mind they've never stated it afaik. Without that statement I don't understand what too high reward would even mean.

 

[Morbad]

I just want a real economy with a semblance of real economic forces at play. A population model would probably be required first, though.

If my 'chosen activity' isn't profitable, I should probably have to choose something else, if I want to make a profit doing it...unless I can engineer some sort of increased demand.

 

[Chaparral]

Most MMOs will set aside achievement titles and special skins for end gamey grinds. Over-engineering mods is an end game activity for example. The problem with interpreting large sums of credits as an end game goal, is that large ships represent different modes of play and not the "final mode" of play.

There are plenty of commanders, that choose to fly smaller ships for specific circumstances- or just for fun even though they have cutters and corvettes.

Since credits really represent access to ships (outside of rep locked ships), I don't think it's a good idea to lock players out of game modes for an extended period of time.