Why Are Space Legs and Atmospheric Landings Such a Hot Topic?

Meanwhile how about all you space legs haters go to to GTA forums and complain bitterly about devs wasting time on the ability to get out of cars and explore on foot.

I'm sure people would start complaining if the next GTA wouldn't future a finely crafted game world consisting of some cities and countryside around them, that the development studio had time and resources to make really great, but instead would future the whole procedural generated Galaxy you can walk around - done in the same time and with the same money they have spent on just a tiny tiny fragment of ONE planet before, including star ships, alien flora, different physics for different environments. It would be cool!

No it wouldn't. It would be a disaster and an AAA game studio would have to go completely crazy to even have the idea.

It's the same as saying "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Frontier could make us land on a planet, enter any building close to an airport and have a pizza with a family that is living there? Sims does it for years, the technology is there!".
 
I seem to make the same comment in all these threads.

Even with the current planetary missions, I'd just LOVE dropping down on a planet with weird and wonderful atmospheric horizons / skies. Especially for exploring. More for immersion reasons I guess.
 
Some people believe them to be a pancea for the game.
"If only we had the ability to walk around, the game would be awesome"
"If only we could land on atmospheric planets, the game would be awesome"

Unfortunately I don't believe that for one second.

People imagine that being able to walk around will add a ton of new gameplay options, first person shoot outs, ship heists, going EVA and fixing your ship etc...
Problem is that knowing FD none of that would come with "Space legs", I'd expect about the same as what we had with X-Rebirth. You'll be able to get out of your ship and do pointless things that you'll eventually stop doing because the menus currently in game are more efficient.

Atmospherics would add even less. The exact same game play as you have now when landing on planets but with an atmosphere so it would be slightly different.

Until FD add rich gameplay you have to assume that it's going to be the bare minimum again if your considering things logically. Sure you can have "faith" that they will be brilliant. How far did that faith get you with Powerplay or CQC or Multicrew etc...??
 
I'd really like to see atmospheric landings, especially if they required some skill, not only some simple glide-equivalent method. I understand that landing on Earth-likes with all the very complex atmospheric and surface features would most likely be very tricky for the developers to implement, but Mars-like planets with very thin atmospheres could be a good starting point, as the planet surfaces would look basically the same as on the airless ones we already have.

On the other hand, I'm very much against space legs in general. This game is about flying spaceships, and I would not like to be forced to do something other than that in it. For instance, if I'll have to spend another fifteen minutes just to walk up to a contact person for a mission before I could take off again, that would feel just an unnecessary and annoying time sink, well, at least right from the second time on. The same applies to having to get up from the pilot's seat and walk back to another room in my ship just to do some repairs manually. Yes, it would be very immersive, but... no thanks.

I really don't want ED to become another first person shooter game. There are plenty of them.
 
That's fine. Everyone is different, and if it doesn't interest you, it doesn't interest you.

It does, however, interest ME.

First thing I did when I got VR was thoroughly explore my Cobra IIIs cockpit. Second thing I did was abuse the reset HMD key to clip my head through the door at the back, to see what I could see. I've tried to do that with all my ships, and it's something I keep doing, because it's fascinating to see what Frontier has added that is potentially visible from the cockpit.

I do the same thing OUTSIDE my ship, using the camera to simulate doing a visual inspection of my ship. I've done the same using the SRV on multiple occasions, "getting out" of the SRV to inspect parts of my ship. Despite having VR for 17 months, this has yet to get old.

I am, however, content for Frontier to wait until they decide it will actually enhance how we play the game. There is so many parts of the game that needs Frontier's attention first.

Exploration, at the moment, desperately needs a lot more tools that operate between the Omniscient Advanced Discovery Scanner and the Mark One Eyeball. I'd like to see mining reach the point where it is varied enough for me to find it tolerable, especially the option to mine on planetary surfaces. I want a better Crime and Punishment system, along with more consequences for our actions (karma), so that I have a Sherlock Holmes to my Moriary, not a deputy Cletus. I want more types of planets to land on, including Earthlike Worlds. I want meaningful PvP to come to this game, where I have a reason, besides the halibut, to engage with other Commanders.

And I know other players have their own list too.

But in the end, I want this game to develop to the point where I have the option to walk into a shady bar, and meet with my contact with the local Brave Freedom Fighters resisting the Evil Galactic Federation, and arrange a rendezvous with them for me to smuggle in some supplies they need.

Both surface mining AND dedicated PVP are already in the game, but you need Horizons for surface mining and no-one plays the dedicated PVP so you can never find a match.
 
Some people believe them to be a pancea for the game.
"If only we had the ability to walk around, the game would be awesome"
"If only we could land on atmospheric planets, the game would be awesome"

Unfortunately I don't believe that for one second.

People imagine that being able to walk around will add a ton of new gameplay options, first person shoot outs, ship heists, going EVA and fixing your ship etc...
Problem is that knowing FD none of that would come with "Space legs", I'd expect about the same as what we had with X-Rebirth. You'll be able to get out of your ship and do pointless things that you'll eventually stop doing because the menus currently in game are more efficient.

Atmospherics would add even less. The exact same game play as you have now when landing on planets but with an atmosphere so it would be slightly different.

Until FD add rich gameplay you have to assume that it's going to be the bare minimum again if your considering things logically. Sure you can have "faith" that they will be brilliant. How far did that faith get you with Powerplay or CQC or Multicrew etc...??

Some of us dont care about efficient. Thosecwho do typically are the ones complaining about grind and balance. ;)
 
I am not obsessed about atmospheric landings. In fact I'd propose Frontier remove landings on some non-atmospheric landings currently we have in the game.

For example, none of our ships should have been able to land on anything >0.5g. Even in our planet with only 1g we require huge rockets and fuel storage to send a "ship" the size of a hong kong bathroom to leave the atmosphere, and that's with an atmosphere supporting its back side (denser air at its bottom, lighter air at its top). It wouldn't make any sense that Cobras, Sidewinders and Vultures or even Corvettes to be able to lift off from any planet bigger than 0.5g.

You probably would require as large a fuel tank taking off (and exhaust them all) when landing. There is no "glide" if there is atmosphere. Nothing is fighting against the gravity other than your little thrusters (you use your large thrusters to lift off yet use only tiny underside thrusters to land??? what is this? fantasy game??)

That is only true for chemical rockets. Fusion Torches, on the other hand, have the potential to be much more powerful, and don't require nearly as much reaction mass either. IIRC, the Elite Universe has had fusion torches since around the 23rd century. As of 3303, our ships use these monsters as reaction control thrusters, and have been measured, in game, of being able to produce accelerations up to 10g.

Then there's our FSDs, which kick Newton to the curb, and thumb their nose at Einstein. It's part of my headcanon that our ships use our FSDs to augment thruster performance, which explains two particular bugbears of mine about this game: the apparent "inertial dampening" our Commanders experience, and "space friction" that slows down our ships. Both of these phenomenon are seen in Supercruise, and it makes sense to me that any ship design would take advantage of this technology as much as possible.

But Space Legs would be much welcomed. There is absolutely zero sense in picking up missions from a mission board. You got to leave the ship and meet the people and seek missions, especially shady ones. How could shady missions popup in an official power controlled Mission Board? You got to leave your ship to operate cargo and to operate the cargo levers, or inject synthesis into your modules or sort out minerals and ore mined. (What? do all the ore cut from mining lasers are of the same exact size that they can be sorted by automated refinery bins? This is absolutely immersion breaking and is ruining the game!)


Besides the fact that the Pilots' Federation controls all station Mission Boards, which IMO paints a rather sinister picture of the PF, I've long assumed that my Commander is in the Elite Universe 24/7, while I play the interesting parts of her day. I have no interest in being required to do something my ship has the equipment to do, or my Commander can do off screen. And yes, it is part of lore that our ships come equipped, standard, with automatic cargo handling system, and I assume its adaptable enough to handle sorting things for the refinery.


That doesn't mean I wouldn't want the option of assisting the automated processes in getting things done, if it means getting better results during a critical mission, but it also means I'd need, at least, an NPC crew that can handle everything else while I'm away from the cockpit. But without NPCs handling what I would consider the (*cough*) interesting part of mining, what you describe above would involve me running between cockpit and refinery. This reminds me too much of survival game mechanics, which I find fun only in small doses.

That being said, it would be nice to see that process in action, but my chief interest in space legs is getting out of the ship, and finding those missions where the mission giver can't afford the Pilots' Federation fees to post on our completely secure Mission Boards. As long as that process is interesting, and more productive than the Mission board, I'll be happy.

And then let's talk about the positives. It would be the first game where we can have zero-G travel in our own ships either to the cargo bay or to the beds or to the engines. Or we could orbit around a large planet and take advantage of its gravity to walk around our own ships on our feet. Or we could set the ship to auto roll so as to generate enough centripetal force that it would feel like gravity and we'd be able to walk on our ships. THere are so many things we could explore in this sandbox, stuff that even the science fiction world hasn't thought of.

And that's why I am obsessed with Space Legs.

First, objects in orbit are technically in freefall, so they don't experience gravity.. People inside a space ship in Low Earth Orbit are technically experiencing about 9 m/s2 of acceleration towards the planet IIRC, its just that because the ship is also moving sideways at 8km/s, there's nothing pushing against them, like the surface of a planet, to make the people inside feel anything. Thus "zero-g".

Second, you can't roll a ship and expect to experience a reasonable simulation of gravity everywhere on the ship. You certainly can't do it fast for any kind of significant force to be applied without the coriolis effect wrecking havoc on you Commander's inner ear. Those Orbis stations, with their eight kilometer wide habitat rings? That's what you need to simulate earth gravity without making people dizzy and nauseous in the process.

What could be done, and what I assume my Commander does when exploring, is to use your ship's ventral thrusters to accelerate upwards at a constant 13.6 m/s2 (Inga's technically a heavyworlder :p) and simulate gravity that way. Thanks to our ships' fusion torch reaction control systems, this is easily done, and they have plenty of reaction mass to do so. In my headcanon, it requires disabling her FSD first, which lowers the performance of her thrusters, but it's a small price to pay to experience proper "gravity" out space.
 
They have not announced it:

A) Because it's really hard to do.
B) Because they don't announce anything until they're almost ready to go to Beta
C) Because some members of our community are impatient with zero self-control and will reflexively launch one speculation thread after another exchanging childish rants.

Pick one.

The correct answer is B and C. ;)
 
As of 3303, our ships use these monsters as reaction control thrusters, and have been measured, in game, of being able to produce accelerations up to 10g.

10g of vertical acceleration would probably kill an average human being. We are a bit better at surviving horizontal acceleration, although I doubt that most of us would be very happy with 10g of that for more than a half a minute or so.

Then there's our FSDs, which kick Newton to the curb, and thumb their nose at Einstein. It's part of my headcanon that our ships use our FSDs to augment thruster performance, which explains two particular bugbears of mine about this game: the apparent "inertial dampening" our Commanders experience, and "space friction" that slows down our ships. Both of these phenomenon are seen in Supercruise, and it makes sense to me that any ship design would take advantage of this technology as much as possible.

SLFs experience the same "space friction" and they don't have an FSD, which pretty much invalidates that reasoning. :)

What could be done, and what I assume my Commander does when exploring, is to use your ship's ventral thrusters to accelerate upwards at a constant 13.6 m/s2 (Inga's technically a heavyworlder :p) and simulate gravity that way. Thanks to our ships' fusion torch reaction control systems, this is easily done, and they have plenty of reaction mass to do so. In my headcanon, it requires disabling her FSD first, which lowers the performance of her thrusters, but it's a small price to pay to experience proper "gravity" out space.

But if you leave Inga in normal space constantly accelerating "upwards" 13.6 m/s2 when you log out of ED, she will have reached ridiculous relativistic speed by the next evening when you can launch ED again :)
 
Both surface mining AND dedicated PVP are already in the game, but you need Horizons for surface mining and no-one plays the dedicated PVP so you can never find a match.

1) There is no surface mining in the game at present. There is material gathering for synthesis and engineers, but you cannot mine ore and refine it into a commodity you can sell. You can steal from a surface extractor if you find one in a spawned POI, but that is a far cry from being able to do it yourself.

2) CQC is the epitome of meaningless PvP. You cannot PvP to increase the influence of a faction you're supporting, because no mechanism exists for it to have an effect. Not even Powerplay, which should've focused as much on PvP as it did on PvE, allows for meaningful PvP. If you spend your time trying to engage Commanders pledged to rival Powers in PvP, you're wasting time that could be spent earning merits for your Power. Even blockade running and piracy are pretty much done for the halibut, and not because they can be used to advance your goals.
 
If space legs and atmospheric landings get abandoned by the devs, I'll be switching to Star Citizen and won't be looking back...as will a lot of the ED playerbase. Those features have been promised by Frontier, and most of us want them. If you don't want them, go play EVE Online instead of trying to convince Frontier to kill this game.

Thanks.
 
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10g of vertical acceleration would probably kill an average human being. We are a bit better at surviving horizontal acceleration, although I doubt that most of us would be very happy with 10g of that for more than a half a minute or so.

Which is a good thing that our ships don't have to sustain 10g of acceleration anymore.

SLFs experience the same "space friction" and they don't have an FSD, which pretty much invalidates that reasoning. :)

"Space Friction" is a gameplay compromise due to

  • Most people not liking realistic Newtonian combat, like what we had in Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. Personally, I thought it was fun, but E: D's flight model has its own charms.
  • The limitations of networking

FSD (or more accurately, Witchspace technology) augmented thrusters is merely my way of explaining this compromise in a way that has verisimilitude, when examined in the context of the Elite franchise as a whole. I tend to do this a lot in games, just to maintain my sanity. The fact it also helps explain why our Commanders don't grey or red out while in combat is a bonus. :p

As for why SLFs also experience "space friction?" Another bit of personal headcanon is that the ships in FE2 and FFE also used Witchspace technology to enhance thruster performance, but the technology was much less refined. SLFs use the older version of the planetary drive system ships were capable of equipping in those games, and the modern FSD mass locks the older tech.

But if you leave Inga in normal space constantly accelerating "upwards" 13.6 m/s2 when you log out of ED, she will have reached ridiculous relativistic speed by the next evening when you can launch ED again :)

Since it takes about 8 months to accelerate to the speed of light, and 25 days to accelerate to 0.1c, I don't think she needs to worry about relativistic speeds after sleeping for eight hours. ;) If she needs more time than that, such as exercising to help maintain muscle tone and bone density, eating breakfast, taking care of personal needs, or simply taking some time off to relax while out in the black, she can flip her ship over and accelerate in the other direction, slowing the ship down again.
 
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If space legs and atmospheric landings get abandoned by the devs, I'll be switching to Star Citizen and won't be looking back...as will a lot of the ED playerbase. Those features have been promised by Frontier, and most of us want them. If you don't want them, go play EVE Online instead of trying to convince Frontier to kill this game.

Thanks.

Actually, both atmospheric landings and space legs were promised in EVE :D They even had tech demos..

Eve Online 2006:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pg1dzAvL2M (from 1:28)

Eve Online 2008,2011:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzy7DG8VR2s&t=47s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4&t=2s

But they've decided it would be crappy, consume millions of dollars and be useless in the end. Well, they've understood it a little bit too late. Had to fire a lot of people they've hired to do it, close some offices and lost a lot of players that were fed up with them ignoring the core game for this piece of bio waste :D

It's the same story all over again...
 
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Dear God, no legs on planets please! We'll end up back at NMS. People get legs on planets, then they'll want somewhere to go with those legs. Then those places will need facilities. Then those faciities will need protection. Then there'll be battle to test those defenses.. Where will it all lead?

Just hire some decent coders, a project team, and fix the current mess already.

Totally agree...




... And atmospheric planets.
 
"Space Friction" is a gameplay compromise due to
  • Most people not liking realistic Newtonian combat, like what we had in Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. Personally, I thought it was fun, but E: D's flight model has its own charms.
  • The limitations of networking

There is only one fundamental reason why people would not like realistic Newtonian space combat, namely that there is no such thing in existence (and to what tiny extent it could exist, it would not the least bit resemble dogfighting, which we all enjoy the most). If somebody have ever played a real "realistic" Newtonian space simulator (like, for instance Orbiter), then they can soon realize how difficult it is to navigate two spaceships close enough to each other, even if they are using fancy navigating software to find the optimal solution to the Lambert's problem they are facing, let alone if one of them tries to escape from the other. Not even mentioning the arbitrarily large magnitude of relative velocity, e.g. 300 km/s, which would leave them some tiny fraction of a second to place one or two shots at the other ship. :)

I seriously doubt that Elite 2 really had a realistic Newtonian flight model (one without a top speed and/or one accurately modeling orbital motion).

Since it takes about 8 months to accelerate to the speed of light, and 25 days to accelerate to 0.1c, I don't think she needs to worry about relativistic speeds after sleeping for eight hours. ;)

Technically speaking, "the next evening when you can launch ED again" does not necessarily mean 8 hours, it could easily be a whole week. :)

You are certainly right about the time needed to reach a large fraction of c, but accelerating at a constant rate of 13.6 m/s2 means that Inga's speed will be nearly 600 km/s (~0.2% of the speed of light) in 12 hours, which is way more than what any man-made spacecraft have ever reached (not in-game, but in reality), and what is more important, by then she should be some 12 million kms away from the space rock where you left her 12 hours ago. :)
 
I seriously doubt that Elite 2 really had a realistic Newtonian flight model (one without a top speed and/or one accurately modeling orbital motion).
It did. IIRC, the first time I took a mission to Alpha Centauri, I reached a top speed of 0.1c (I looked it up afterwards, out of morbid curiosity) before I realized I'd need enough fuel to stop at the end. When I did the math, I found out that I didn't, and I got to "enjoy" watching my destination zip by as my powerless ship drifted into the black at a high rate of speed. Me being me, I started a new game, and spent some time trying to figure out how I could complete a naval mission on time, given the limitations imposed by the flight model. I never managed to complete one, even with a ship capable of accelerating at 28g. :mad:

When I was playing the game, I regularly used Brachistochrone trajectories (didn't know what they were called at the time) to get places in the game, since so many of the naval missions I took were time dependent, and the autopilot in the game was an idiot. Since gravity was simulated if you were within a body's sphere of influence, it was possible to put your ships into orbit if you flew your ships using the game's equivalent of flight-assist off. Intercepting a ship in transit was an... interesting experience, if you didn't take advantage of a particular quirk of your ship's autopilot when combined with the Stardreamer technology.

Once you managed to both intercept a ship and match its speed and trajectory, then you could finally engage in combat. IMO, most people didn't enjoy combat simply because they didn't use FA: Off when in the game, which resulted in jousting matches, as opposed to using forward and reverse thrust, combined with turning your ship, to keep the AI in your crosshairs while staying out of theirs.
 
In my opinion it depends on how the development team at frontier is working. Space legs doesn't mean all resources of development must focus on the same thing. One Team can work on space legs or atmospheric landing and the others keep on polishing the game. Nevertheless I think the development team at frontier is too small when I look at the previous updates. I don't think they are going to manage these features for the next two years. Since Beta we only got minor updates in my Opinion. Except planetary landing. But I guess they even worked on this feature already in Beta and released it later. In short I lost my trust in FD. I don't think their vision from Kickstarter will be in game for the next few years. Somehow it is sad because ED has a lot of potential. Supporting XBOX and PS4 makes it even worse since these platforms eat development resources too.

Now why are said features important. I will stick to the example of space legs. I am playing space games for many years and I always thought it would be cool to leave your ship. Why? Because of immersion. Sitting in a vessel 24x7 feels claustrophobic. Another thing is you don't really notice the scale of things in the current game. It just doesn't feel natural. The problem however is, like already mentioned, just leaving your ship without anything to do is a problem too. This problem already exists in the game with planetary landing. It was cool the first few weeks but got boring pretty fast since the planets do not offer alot you can do, or better the activities you have on planets are not polished so they feel interesting.

So at the end of the day I also think that Frontier should finally focus on the game mechanics which are already present in the game. Because it seems like FD is not capable to release features like space legs or atmospheric landing and updating the core features at the same time. I bet Star Citizen has more development resources but they're not getting it done either. Give me interesting mining, trading, exploration or whatever and I can overlook that we have no space legs. Atmospheric landing is way over board compared to what we can do on planets right now or better said things we can't do on planets right now. So let the improve on that first.
 
My guess would be that people see elements of games design that they like in other titles and want it to be a part of their favourite game.
Developers have responded to this public desire by continuing to blur the genre lines and the industry seems hell bent on merging into a homogeneous parallel reality.

In some ways, yes, but I believe most would like to see FD fulfill aspects of their design plan and implement them. ED has the potential of being the best space sim ever, but FD still have a long way to go. IMO, space legs, atmospheric landing and ELWs would go a long way to achieving that. :)
 
I'm not super excited about space legs, Yea you can walk around your ship but people will gripe and moan that it's boring because they already walked the entire interior of every ship they own on the first day.

Atmospheric landings though, I would love to see this. Elite has pretty much changed genres after horizons launched going from space flight sim to just a space sim. I'm not an expert on programming games, or anything for that matter, but I don't see how it will be resource heavy. It's not going to be too different from the current planetary landings, other than well see some clouds and entering the atmosphere will be fun, playing around with a planets weather will be fun. I want so see what happens when an anaconda gets sucked into one of those hyper canes that some planets have.
 
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