PvP Balance Big Ships vs Small Ships

Dear All,

If you look at forum threads on what ships to use in PvP and the consensus is that big ships aren't viable - instead small or mid sized ships with crippling first strike damage (which they just shouldn't get to have - more on that later). So there you have it: PvP is just imbalanced!

The game is currently a bit unrewarding and even boring for me because PvP is such a mess.
A couple of additional points in this regard, also relating to the answers I received, in no specific order:

1. I can destroy pretty much anything in PvE with ease in a highly engineered A class Corvette and hold my own against Anacondas in PvP but I lquickly lose in PvP against ONE small ship or an FDL - how does that make any sense?

2. I do already employ fixed weapons but, again, that's far more useful for smaller ships because in a big ship it's increadibly hard to target small, fast ships with fixed weapons and the opposite is true the other way around! Smaller ships are so fast and agile that you can't get them efficiently into focus in a big ship - the small ship just boosts away a bit and is super hard to target, plus damage fall off kicks in hard. I also tried long range engineered turretted lasers that target even silent running ships at distance, but they just tickle the target, even multiple C3 beams. In addition, I already use a Fighter Bay but that doesn't turn the tide either at the moment.

3. A number of experimental engineering effects are way too good and clearly favor small ship against big ship situations like Phasing Sequence, Feedback cascade, Dispersal field, Reverbarating Cascade or Penetrator payload, whereas there is are no effects that favor big against small ships, like e.g. an Area of Effect (AoE) effect that does damage in a certain volume even without directly hitting. The latter could be an effect for Multicannons.

4. Right now smaller ships can have ridiculous alpha damage that's especially effective against big ships like with special effect Torpedos or PAs and it's easy to hit big ships with these weapons and instantly do comical amounts of damage that shouldn't be possible for a small or mid sized ship - but hitting small ships with PAs or Torpedos is really really hard.

5. 8A sensors, and lower tier sensors like 8D or 7A accordingly less efficient, should be completely immune to chaff and silent running. It's the 34th century and high tech sensors aren't ably to detect a ship through a bunch of aluminum debris or because the target isn't warm enough? Really?

6. As a last point and especially regarding my beginning boredom with the game, combat ranking should be based on PvP results exclusively (of course only when the mentioned balance issues are solved) and dynamic like e.g. in StarCraft: Commanders should be downranked if they keep losing against lower ranked PvP pilots in weaker ships etc.

Seal-clubbing thousands and thousands of weak ships in PvE hust shouldn't give anyone the rank Elite in combat.


I hope all this gets the attention of somebody at FD.


Best regards, Felix (CMDR Gewinnste)
 
The previous conversation was here

I don't agree those weapons effects should be nerfed that much as they are part of the fun and interesting part of engineering, but it is true that currently small ships are harder to kill than big one and i'm not even talking about PvP with engineered weapons !!

Indeed in PvE Anaconda are really easy to destroy (with my war anaconda) but a Cobra or a Adder seems to take an eterny to kill. Even when you have one in your gimballed they have stronger hull than Anaconda !!!

That's not normal at all !

Only now i have Pack Hounds Missiles i seems to be able to get them down fast. With pulse laser turrets and MC gimballed it takes forever...

In addition with Target Lock Breaker, Mass Lock Munitions / FSD Interupt a big ship will be simply dead fish in water with no possibility to shoot a single burst at it's opponent.

If we had the fact that turrets are limited to very low class, big ships despite their shield and hull advantage, are not in favor compared to small agile ship with incredible weapons...

To balance all of that, all weapons should have turrets equivalent except railguns and plasma accelerator and some effects should be delayed a bit after one is shot.
 
Well, you showed exactly what my point is. So I wonder why you initially said that those experimental engineering effects shouldn't be nerfed.
What gives?
 
The thing when a small ship alone can defeat a big ship is imbalance (and there's no other meanings).

One big ship should be able to defeat at least more than one small ship. I think the part of it is a big amount of armor and much stronger shields of big ships.

So only right cooperation the group of pilots with right action must make destroying of a big ship possible.
 
1. I can destroy pretty much anything in PvE with ease in a highly engineered A class Corvette and hold my own against Anacondas in PvP but I lquickly lose in PvP against ONE small ship or an FDL - how does that make any sense? (CMDR Gewinnste)

Lolz. That's exactly how it should work in a player skill based game. If a very good pvp player can use the speed, agility and small profile to his advantage, he should have the chance to prevail against a slow moving lumbering beast with high caliber ordnance. If anything, the big ships in Elite are too agile and fighter-like in their flight model, they should have much bigger problems with fighting against fast, agile targets.

But i agree with some of your concerns. Some special effects should scale with the size of the target module. Big ships should be harder to disable with disrupting/rebooting effects than they are now. Not by much, but more than now.

combat ranking should be based on PvP results exclusively... Seal-clubbing thousands and thousands of weak ships in PvE hust shouldn't give anyone the rank Elite in combat.

Yes it should. People that care about pvp in this game are a small minority.
 
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but I lquickly lose in PvP against ONE small ship or an FDL - how does that make any sense?

You aren't defensively strong enough yet.

I can assure you now that ED PvP is weighted heavily in favour of the defensive game. A big ship with correctly built defenses can take from ten to twenty minutes and above to hammer out. You are also blessed with FA Off, which means you mitigate the smaller ship's agility advantage massively.

From reading this and most following points, I can only really say "git gud". Revisit your engineered modules, revisit your build, revisit your flight technique. Feel free to post your loadout and we can take a look at it.

Either way if you expect the bigger ship to do all the work for you, perhaps you're just not ready for the bigger ship yet.
 
The amount of thruster force available to bigger ships is definitely a balance issue in this game. The problem, is that if they were to truly make it more balanced, no one would fly the bigger ships anymore- even with the defensive capability available to them, because if they were overwhelmed by wing of smaller ships they'd be shredded (albeit slower) to bits.

IMO, no ship twice or three times the size of a smaller ships should be able to turn and handle as quickly as a smaller ship. You shouldn't be able to fly a Corvette like you do an Eagle, for example.
 
Well. In EVE the big ships have drones to defend against smaller, more agile ships, here they have a fighter bay. Make it better at shooting smaller stuff while making the mother ship less agile. Would make more sense :p
 
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I don't care about players opinions, I wrote this for FD to read.

But towards the comments opposing my points, I can only say that currently big ships aren't viable in PvP, which pretty much everybody agrees on. And that needs to change!

Also, my skills don't matter regarding the issue. I might as well be tetraplegic and only be able to type with my chin. My points would be just as valid as they are now.

But if you guys set value on proving skills, I'd be happy to give you guys a beating in 1v1 and you in a big ship.
 
I don't care about players opinions, I wrote this for FD to read.

Er?

Dear All....


But towards the comments opposing my points, I can only say that currently big ships aren't viable in PvP, which pretty much everybody agrees on. And that needs to change!

Please provide source to show where pretty much everyone agrees with this.


Also, my skills don't matter regarding the issue.

Apart from the fact you're getting quickly butchered by smaller ships, which doesn't seem to happen to serious PvPers.


But if you guys set value on proving skills, I'd be happy to give you guys a beating in 1v1 and you in a big ship.

PC, CMDR StiTch!
 
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The amount of thruster force available to bigger ships is definitely a balance issue in this game.
Truck, Tanks, Battle Cruiser...etc. have heavy strong engine, why should bigger ship have weak engine ?!

For now thrusters are really balanced. Big ships are slow, small ships can be incredibly fast when engineered.


IMO, no ship twice or three times the size of a smaller ships should be able to turn and handle as quickly as a smaller ship.
Except there is no mass in space, so in fact if we had true physical space simulation big ships and even bigger one could spin as fast as the most agile ships.

Even with gravity you can move heavy things very fastly. For example in one of the episode of the TV Show Building Wild, they build a house on a digger chassis and you can spin it with a single finger... (I can't found the exact video where you can see it spinning).


IMO, no ship twice or three times the size of a smaller ships should be able to turn and handle as quickly as a smaller ship.
Really ?! Really ?!

In this video you can see a heavy tanks truck spinning as fast as a car :

[video=youtube;javSKpySbzc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=javSKpySbzc[/video]

Without gravity it should be even worse.
 
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Truck, Tanks, Battle Cruiser...etc. have heavy strong engine, why should bigger ship have weak engine ?!

For now thrusters are really balanced. Big ships are slow, small ships can be incredibly fast when engineered.


Except there is no mass in space, so in fact if we had true physical space simulation big ships and even bigger one could spin as fast as the most agile ships.

Even with gravity you can move heavy things very fastly. For example in one of the episode of the TV Show Building Wild, they build a house on a digger chassis and you can spin it with a single finger... (I can't found the exact video where you can see it spinning).


Really ?! Really ?!

In this video you can see a heavy tanks truck spinning as fast as a car :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=javSKpySbzc

Without gravity it should be even worse.

No mass in space?

Have you ever approached a Neutron Star or Black Hole?
 
No mass in space?

Have you ever approached a Neutron Star or Black Hole?
There is no friction and almost no mass.

My point still stands. If heavy vehicule can spin as fast as small one as i shown with gravity why would they spin less faster in space with no friction and almost no mass...

In fact you are so wrong about speed/power of heavy vehicule vs smaller one :
[video=youtube;MfihB1Qzjzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfihB1Qzjzs[/video]

In fact a truck can be faster than some air planes : 553.46 Km/h !!!
[video=youtube;iDtH_4SqjKc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtH_4SqjKc[/video]

I now understand why the Imperial Cutter can be that fast and why it is not that agile : A small plane at that speed would still be manoeuvrable.
 
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Just Google "which ship to use in PvP elite".
Please provide source of you find ANYTHING other than that big ships aren't viable (results from 2017)!
What's your problem anyways? Can't afford a Corvette etc.? Why would anybody argue in favor of the current ridiculousness?
 
Gewinnste, there is reasons why people use smaller ships for PvP :
- They cost less
- They are agile
- They have strong weapons & effects
- They requiere skills to use
- They are fun to use

In most games like FPS for example everybody has same equipment and it's requiere skills to defeat your opponents.

Skills is not only how you use your weapons but also how your move, what is your game sense or your knowledge of the game and environement (map for example)..Etc.

In ED things are not like that as often the more money in game you have the more powerfull you are.

You buy better ships you are better at everything (trading, passenger, battle...).

I think most people wants to use smaller ships for PvP for above reason but also to bring back skill in the game.

In my opinion ships are not balanced at all right now : Trader's ships should be better at trading, passenger ships should be better for passenger missions, war ships better for battle's.

As for now i think special effects are cool because they allow specialized warfare and guerilla : It's bring specialized skills inside the game. For example someone can train to launch mine with Reverberating Cascade effect and destroy big ship shield. It's how guerilla works, it's not the one with the more means that win the battle.

Some effects seems too strong. For example a small ship with Target Lock Breaker on Plasma Accelerator can totally prevent one of the big ship to shoot a single burst and with it's agility the big ship cannot simply outmanoeuvre him and he can simply die open mouth. For that reason i learnt to now also equipped fixed and gimballed weapons on my Anaconda (2/4 Railguns and/or 2 Pack Hounds missiles, 2 gimballed MC, 2 Laser/pulse laser turrets).

And also for that reason i think all weapons except Railguns and Plasma Accelerator should be available as turrets in all classes.
Big ships have incredible shield and hull it's true, even too much, but in fact as they are huge ship they should needs a large wings of ships to take them down.

FDev have tweeked something so that bigger ship cannot destroy a small ship in one laser burst. It's a good thing but they went too far in the adjustement.
Of course a fast agile ship should be harder to kill, but when in PvE you are face to face with an Anaconda that you manage to kill in a very short period of time and then you face an Adder or a Cobra and you have harder time to kill even, even though you are face to him in close combat, well you know there is a problem : Small ships looks like they harder hull than a huge ship o_O

Some effects could be rebalanced but again things needs to be really thought trough or they would become the new meta or completly useless. We have seen so many things overpowered in the past that became nerfed too much afterwards (thermal shock for example).
 
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I agree with a lot of your message. But your points 1 to 3 are exactly what I'm criticizing. Small ships shouldn't be that powerful!

And I disagree with point 4. Right now, it takes way more skill to fly a big combat ship in PvP because of chaff, silent running of small ships and experimental effects that make small ships or FDLs ridiculously powerful against big ships, whereas there are no experimental effects that favor big ships against small ships.

Also, again, I'd like to emphasize that I'd prefer to confer with somebody from FD, which is the idea of suggestions forum.
 
You aren't defensively strong enough yet.

I can assure you now that ED PvP is weighted heavily in favour of the defensive game. A big ship with correctly built defenses can take from ten to twenty minutes and above to hammer out. You are also blessed with FA Off, which means you mitigate the smaller ship's agility advantage massively.

From reading this and most following points, I can only really say "git gud". Revisit your engineered modules, revisit your build, revisit your flight technique. Feel free to post your loadout and we can take a look at it.

Either way if you expect the bigger ship to do all the work for you, perhaps you're just not ready for the bigger ship yet.

You don't PvP in a big ship do you
 
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Aha. So are you more successful in your cutter in PvP than in an FDL, like it should be? I bet my life that that's not the case.

I can't believe that players keep arguing in favor of the current blatently ridiculous imbalance in favor of small ships and FDLs, except if they're to poor to afford a conda, cutter or corvette.
 
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And there is to be a lot of haters of big ships recently...

For them big ships move too fast, turn too fast... lol They are already slow whale ! They wants big ships to be nerfed even more ?!
 
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