Imperial Ludonarrative Dissonance

[Gamatech]

Hi all o7

Aforemention, for those who don't know what Ludonarrative dissonance is, there are lots of very compelling articles and videos online. For those who aren't interested I'll sum it up as best I can in a sentence or two, but please remember there's a LOT more to it than just this.

Ludonarrative dissonance is the term given to the confliction within a player's mind during a moral or questionable situation in a game. Examples include financial gain at the cost of others, missions which involve killing innocents, and purposeful manipulation and degradation of another in-game character for the sake of orders or personal gain.

Moving on


When I started playing the game I did a LOT of research into the major powers. The Imperials seemed almost Utopian focussing on honour, and financial status being determined by personal acts rather than corporate success. When I was grinding Imperial ranks I did everything I could to see things from their perspective. Imperial slavery (by law at least) is more like community service, with benefits and good treatment as standard. Having the wrath of the Empire come down on you was almost always because of an immoral or disrespectful act you had performed rather than words on paper telling you what you can and cannot do. I even somewhat forgave their clear disregard for sentient life during the Empire's founding, seeing as the rarity of intelligent species was taken for granted by all of humanity. Pair that with the Empress at the time wanting to promote peace (her brother quickly killed her off and forced his power upon the people), I couldn't blame the Empire for their ancestor's actions hundreds of years after the fact.

I spent my whole time grinding overlooking, forgiving, and trying to understand Imperial Society. But my last rank-up mission for Duke has torn me once again. It was an Imperial Navy hit contract, and the target's last words were "I die free". It's stuck with me since it happened two days ago, and I'm racking my brain over what his perspective would have been. Could he have been trying to support his family by the actions the took? Could he have been dishonoured for having a debt and chose not to sell himself into slavery? Could he have been a ruthless criminal that had escaped custody? I will never know, and it really digs at me that I ended his journey.

Combined with everything else I have experienced with the Empire, I can't bring myself to reward my endeavours with the purchase of a Cutter. I have the money, I have the rank, and I sure as hell have the desire. But what are the grounds that it was earned upon, and what would it stand for? At this point, I am seriously considering going through the grind all over again for the Federation to get myself a Corvette instead of making the purchase.

I realise that the Federation has it's fair share of corrupt officials and cooperate greed, and arguably it's no more justifiable. But what are your thoughts on the entire subject? Do you let games get to you when faced with choices like this? How much does it affect you, if at all? And why do you have that opinion?

As a side note, I'd love to hear what others would do in my current situation! :L

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Since Rank Progression Missions are RNG picked from more-or-less the entire Mission portfolio, Empire and Federation share the same "ideals" basically when it comes to their Naval Ranks.

So don't overthink it, there currently are no fundamental differences.

You could have ignored the Rank Progression Mission and picked the very next best one. Chances are, it might have been a harmless Courier Task. RNG.

 

[Xae]

Since Rank Progression Missions are RNG picked from more-or-less the entire Mission portfolio, Empire and Federation share the same "ideals" basically when it comes to their Naval Ranks.

So don't overthink it, there currently are no fundamental differences.

You could have ignored the Rank Progression Mission and picked the very next best one. Chances are, it might have been a harmless Courier Task. RNG.

Apparently the ideal Armed Services member for both the Feds and Imps is an courier drone.

Anyone read Scalzi?

The Fed and Imp Admiralty would be 90% skip drone.

 

[Gamatech]

Since Rank Progression Missions are RNG picked from more-or-less the entire Mission portfolio, Empire and Federation share the same "ideals" basically when it comes to their Naval Ranks.

So don't overthink it, there currently are no fundamental differences.

You could have ignored the Rank Progression Mission and picked the very next best one. Chances are, it might have been a harmless Courier Task. RNG.

The conflict I have isn't so much that it was a combat mission, more the fact that saying "I die free" would likely imply that the Imperials wanted him dead for reasons unknown.

 

[Ra'Kaan]

@Gamatech

I love that you put this much thought into this kind of thing.

Poeple bemoan about "where is the story" in ED etc...

But YOU get this game, YOU ARE the story! Digging deep into the little things IS MAKING the stories of ED.

Keep it up! o7

 

[Stealthie]

Hi all o7

Aforemention, for those who don't know what Ludonarrative dissonance is, there are lots of very compelling articles and videos online. For those who aren't interested I'll sum it up as best I can in a sentence or two, but please remember there's a LOT more to it than just this.

Ludonarrative dissonance is the term given to the confliction within a player's mind during a moral or questionable situation in a game. Examples include financial gain at the cost of others, missions which involve killing innocents, and purposeful manipulation and degradation of another in-game character for the sake of orders or personal gain.

Moving on


When I started playing the game I did a LOT of research into the major powers. The Imperials seemed almost Utopian focussing on honour, and financial status being determined by personal acts rather than corporate success. When I was grinding Imperial ranks I did everything I could to see things from their perspective. Imperial slavery (by law at least) is more like community service, with benefits and good treatment as standard. Having the wrath of the Empire come down on you was almost always because of an immoral or disrespectful act you had performed rather than words on paper telling you what you can and cannot do. I even somewhat forgave their clear disregard for sentient life during the Empire's founding, seeing as the rarity of intelligent species was taken for granted by all of humanity. Pair that with the Empress at the time wanting to promote peace (her brother quickly killed her off and forced his power upon the people), I couldn't blame the Empire for their ancestor's actions hundreds of years after the fact.

I spent my whole time grinding overlooking, forgiving, and trying to understand Imperial Society. But my last rank-up mission for Duke has torn me once again. It was an Imperial Navy hit contract, and the target's last words were "I die free". It's stuck with me since it happened two days ago, and I'm racking my brain over what his perspective would have been. Could he have been trying to support his family by the actions the took? Could he have been dishonoured for having a debt and chose not to sell himself into slavery? Could he have been a ruthless criminal that had escaped custody? I will never know, and it really digs at me that I ended his journey.

Combined with everything else I have experienced with the Empire, I can't bring myself to reward my endeavours with the purchase of a Cutter. I have the money, I have the rank, and I sure as hell have the desire. But what are the grounds that it was earned upon, and what would it stand for? At this point, I am seriously considering going through the grind all over again for the Federation to get myself a Corvette instead of making the purchase.

I realise that the Federation has it's fair share of corrupt officials and cooperate greed, and arguably it's no more justifiable. But what are your thoughts on the entire subject? Do you let games get to you when faced with choices like this? How much does it affect you, if at all? And why do you have that opinion?

As a side note, I'd love to hear what others would do in my current situation! :L

That would be an ecumenical matter. [where is it]

 

[Saool]

Both the Empire and the Federation are leaning on the dystopian side of things but in different ways. The Empire, to me, is very much a version of the Roman Empire, in space. The Federation, right wing America in space, and very much in the Trump style. Of the two I would take the Empire eleven times out of ten.

The Alliance is arguably considerably less dystopian, given it is the only power that promotes actual freedom, not just freedom of the Federation. However that freedom cuts both ways. The Alliance is not a top down society, really. Each system governs itself. But that means you have bad apples too. In the Alliance its perfectly normal to have an open democratic system right next to a totalitarian dictatorship system and no-one bats an eyelid. And both are absolutely expected to defend one another with their militias if something kicks off. The question I keep asking myself is, can a citizen of that dictatorship, freely move the democracy if they want to?

If you want the idyllic society in Elite, I'm afraid your one million years too late. It was the Guardians society before backward religious types messed it all up for everyone right on the cusp of a technological utopia. Fancy that.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Join the Alliance, brother.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Stop being a [person who tries to sound smart] Seriously.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Stop being a [person who tries to sound smart] Seriously.

Oh - give him a chance.
There's meat to engage with in the post.


Specifically: You really have to bend yourself six different ways to cope with the dissonance of Empire lore. To make all the excuses that slavery is somehow okay in 3303, you fold yourself double like some yoga guru contortionist.

Frankly its easier to advocate for Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, than to put forth a coherent argument for the Empire.

The xenocide.
The slavery.
The incestuous drama of the Duvals.
The PvP griefers.
(seriously - look up the CMDR names of those Duval pledges at a CG, they're not here to advance the story)

So much to justify away or lie to yourself about with the Empire.

 

[Jaffz]

Oh - give him a chance.
There's meat to engage with in the post.


Specifically: You really have to bend yourself six different ways to cope with the dissonance of Empire lore. To make all the excuses that slavery is somehow okay in 3303, you fold yourself double like some yoga guru contortionist.

Frankly its easier to advocate for Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, than to put forth a coherent argument for the Empire.

The xenocide.
The slavery.
The incestuous drama of the Duvals.
The PvP griefers.
(seriously - look up the CMDR names of those Duval pledges at a CG, they're not here to advance the story)

So much to justify away or lie to yourself about with the Empire.

I'm empire. I don't give a crap slaves or murder. Kneel.

 

[Jaffz]

That would be an ecumenical matter. [where is it]

DRINK

 

[DNA-Decay]

I'm empire. I don't give a crap slaves or murder. Kneel.

Indeed.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I had the exact same problem with the Empire. I had a Clipper (got it when they were rankless the first time), and I was working my way through their ranks and trying to justify their society.

I couldn't though. Their flaws were many and obvious, and it was killing me inside.

The turning point for me was a rank-up mission to murder a guy who deserted from their military. I found him in supercruise, and he messaged me a plea to hear his side of the story. I hopped into his wake, and he basically repeated all my thoughts back to me.

He signed up, fresh-faced and idealistic, looking to make his mark on the galaxy. He quickly learned, however, that he was just a pointless cog in and evil machine. He couldn't take it anymore. He just wanted out.

I let him go. And then I went too.

I signed up with the Feds for a while. I figured that although they were as broken as the Empire in practice, at least their claimed ideals were in the right place. The empire took their flaws and failures, polished them up, and put them on a pedestal, calling them glories. At least the Federation had the sense of shame to hide theirs, which made me hope they could still be reformed from within.

The ramp up to the events in the Pleiades, with President Halsey's recovery and incarceration, and the collaboration of and cover-up with Sirius and other megacorps, has now led me to believe the Federation is too far gone.

I've looked at the Alliance, but their acceptance of tyranny leaves me worried. I don't know what to do.

The best solution I've found so far is to stop looking to others to create some measure of justice and peace, and instead go out and wrestle it into this world myself.

 

[deuzerre]

It's a rather touching story.

I initially went for a playthrough working for the alliance. Dabbled in powerplay even but I found it annoying pretty quick (you really need dedication...). What pleased me with their story was that they're basically a bunch of totally independant systems with only the smallest, tenious link: They don't want to get crushed, and therefore they're buddies at war, independant otherwise. It's pretty much how I'd see space faring civilisations: Each planet evolving into ahving its own culture and therefore different views. So I found a system held by a local power I liked and went on working for the alliance for a while.

Recently got interested in imperial ships. I had avoided the Empire like the plague, with their very rigid society, so I initially was a bit... Grungingly doing work for them. Then I went OK with it, because I though about it and didn't feel it as morally ambiguous. Furthermore, the really bad guys in my opinion are the feds now, with their overly xenophobic and militaristic nature. While hauling "tons" of slaves was morally harsh initially, I roleplayed it into something else. I did some single jump trade route with a T9 filled with slaves for some credit and eventually thought "hey, these guys are moving from an argicultural station to a high tech station. I think it'll actually improve their standards as slaves. And if they're in the market, it's probably because they aren't suited for the work here. Etc...

This is how some atrocities have been commited in the past and nowadays even. You become lenient, vaguely tolerant towards something that seemed off to you, then you get used to the idea, then you find justifications for the system to work like this, until something personal hits you in the face and you can't hide the fact that some of the system is rotten.

Now, make your move: Will you be swayed away from Her basking light, unable to accept what you've done for ideals that you now oppose, or will you continue, knowing that nothing's black and white and that the ones you work for maybe aren't the darkest grey?

 

[Jaffz]

I had the exact same problem with the Empire. I had a Clipper (got it when they were rankless the first time), and I was working my way through their ranks and trying to justify their society.

I couldn't though. Their flaws were many and obvious, and it was killing me inside.

The turning point for me was a rank-up mission to murder a guy who deserted from their military. I found him in supercruise, and he messaged me a plea to hear his side of the story. I hopped into his wake, and he basically repeated all my thoughts back to me.

He signed up, fresh-faced and idealistic, looking to make his mark on the galaxy. He quickly learned, however, that he was just a pointless cog in and evil machine. He couldn't take it anymore. He just wanted out.

I let him go. And then I went too.

I signed up with the Feds for a while. I figured that although they were as broken as the Empire in practice, at least their claimed ideals were in the right place. The empire took their flaws and failures, polished them up, and put them on a pedestal, calling them glories. At least the Federation had the sense of shame to hide theirs, which made me hope they could still be reformed from within.

The ramp up to the events in the Pleiades, with President Halsey's recovery and incarceration, and the collaboration of and cover-up with Sirius and other megacorps, has now led me to believe the Federation is too far gone.

I've looked at the Alliance, but their acceptance of tyranny leaves me worried. I don't know what to do.

The best solution I've found so far is to stop looking to others to create some measure of justice and peace, and instead go out and wrestle it into this world myself.

JUST BEND THE KNEE, PEASANT

 

[DNA-Decay]

[video=youtube_share;_tn2H9ca57c]https://youtu.be/_tn2H9ca57c[/video]

What's with the Welsh and this game?

 

[nik_a777]

Personally I wouldnt cheapen myself with thralldom to a degenerate cause to fly a ship that looks like a bathroom fitting. I prefer the fresh vacuum and manly vessels of Alliance space.

 

[Dbrn47]

Missions don't take faction background lore or morals into consideration, so it doesn't seem worth thinking about it too much. That being said, while I do try to avoid running slaves around too much, sometimes its the only thing the game wants to give you to smuggle. Not much to be done there, if I have to make a choice between roleplay and playing the game, I'll just play the game.

Personally I wouldnt cheapen myself with thralldom to a degenerate cause to fly a ship that looks like a bathroom fitting. I prefer the fresh vacuum and manly vessels of Alliance space.

You don't even bask bro... psshh

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Missions don't take faction background lore or morals into consideration, so it doesn't seem worth thinking about it too much. That being said, while I do try to avoid running slaves around too much, sometimes its the only thing the game wants to give you to smuggle. Not much to be done there, if I have to make a choice between roleplay and playing the game, I'll just play the game.



You don't even bask bro... psshh

Intentionally or not, that's a roleplay of its own, isn't it?