General / Off-Topic Crypto currencies are messed up, and here's why

What? they are paying for that power so what's the matter? oh? too bad the power is made via natural gas/coal because renewable are unfeasible on the grid scale level so that's going to be an issue on the climate, but humans already waste heaps of energy anyway, take the average household car for example, where most modern cities are built around the whole concept of the commute when they shouldn't and there should be more public transportation etc.

Actually, I'm more mad I didn't start mining bitcoins in the thousands back in 2008 or so :^)

I can think of other useless markets, like the diamond markets, its value is worthless technically, but its value relies on pure subjective worth.
 
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That article has more than its fair share of mistakes, but let's see the main point of it: power consumption. Luckily, the guy behind that estimate gave his reasoning.
First off, he says he starts calculating by taking total revenue from Bitcoin(!) mining. He neglects to say that BTC is most probably in a bubble right now, which is well over what all the previous years of it were, and annualizing revenue from such a boom year is iffy already. Then he says that "The index is built on the premise that miner income and costs are related." That's flawed again: once the miner has the hardware, the running costs are fixed, the income depends on the coin's difficulty and price. (Of course, there is the matter that ASICs are limited to one hash algorithm only, but we're only talking about Bitcoin mining here, not cryptocurrency mining in general.) Then as the next step, the author estimates that 60% of their revenue will be spent on operating costs alone.
...What?
Let's proceed with the assumption that he made, that operational costs only cover electricity. (Of course, if you're running a big farm, they don't. You pay rent, you pay your employees, and so on.) A quick check on current revenue gave me that for BTC, electricity costs for running the hardware would be 9.5% of the revenue. Let's say that cooling the hardware costs half of that (already a pessimistic estimate), and we're at 14.25% then. That's less than a quarter of the author's estimate.

Mind you, in terms of energy efficiency, Bitcoin is worse off than most other PoW cryptocurrencies, let alone the PoS ones which should be much better in this regard.

Also, Bitcoin miners are almost completely centralised in China, thanks to the cheap electricity: in 2016, the surplus power from hydro-power stations in Sichuan and Yunnan (where the Chinese miners are clustered) was 45.6 TWh. The author's overblown estimate of 24.73 TWh would still fit within that. And ~6.5 TWh, even more so.


Sure, you can be upset about even a single watt-hour used to mine cryptocurrencies, which is required to operate them. Hey, feel free to disregard payment methods that do have demand behind them - if they were worthless to everyone, nobody would use them. But as far as inefficient and polluting stuff goes, I'd say there are plenty of other activities which would be worth more to be upset about.
 
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Isn't there an issue with bitcoin etc in that they effectively have a constrained supply (via the mining getting ever mote computationally intensive).

This effectively puts us in the same situation as a gold standard, i.e. tying the currency to a constrained unit.

So as the real economy expands - that is to say more stuff is produced - the currency can't expand as quickly.

This will provoke deflation (more products chasing the same volume of currency) which can in turn constrain investment and spending (why invest in a factory or buy something today when you could just hold onto cash and wait for the factory or product to get cheaper).

This has already happened with bit coin, some people who bought bitcoins when they were cheap are just holding them and not spending hoping they will go up in value.
 
Mind you - if you'd bought 100 bitcoins a few years ago, I bet you'd be quite happy about it now :D

Just wow.

1 of these things is worth 5600 quid. From literally nothing in comparison 5 years ago.

Why is this so? What's made it rocket stupidly in price?
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
Just wow.

1 of these things is worth 5600 quid. From literally nothing in comparison 5 years ago.

Why is this so? What's made it rocket stupidly in price?
Bitcoins are the currency of choice for ransom malware, amongst other shady activities....
 
Why dont you just respond to the topic at hand? Maybe take the personal stuff to PM? :S This evidently has nothing to do with 'magic wealth' or some weird stuff like that...

Fair point. Climate change does concern me but I'm a bit sceptical that crypto currency warrants singling out as some sort of terrible thing Re climate change when there are plenty of other things that cause us to pump out CO2. We are all quite happily playing ED using vast amounts of GPU power to do so. ED uses Amazon web services... huge server farms using vast amounts of power. Ask google something... huge server farm.

What the power source is factors in. Iceland has loads of server farms and bit coin mining computers because they have loads of clean, cheap geothermal energy. Suppose I am a bit coin miner but my energy supplier is Ecotricity so I'm buying power from wind turbines. What if someone is bitcoin mining in France were electricity is ~75% nuclear (very low CO2 factoring in the entire fuel cycle). What if someone buys an electric car to do their bit for the environment but all the power comes from a coal fired power station.

Traditional currency often is backed up by precious metals such as gold, it doesn't mine itself and appear in bank vaults. I don't bit coin mine but I don't think it is as simple as it uses a lot of computational power so must be terrible for the planet.
 
Just wow.

1 of these things is worth 5600 quid. From literally nothing in comparison 5 years ago.

Why is this so? What's made it rocket stupidly in price?

It is rocketing in price because it is rocketing in price, so naturally it is going to carry on rocketing in price. See Tulip Mania, South Sea Bubble etc...
 
Isn't there an issue with bitcoin etc in that they effectively have a constrained supply (via the mining getting ever mote computationally intensive).

This effectively puts us in the same situation as a gold standard, i.e. tying the currency to a constrained unit.

So as the real economy expands - that is to say more stuff is produced - the currency can't expand as quickly.

This will provoke deflation (more products chasing the same volume of currency) which can in turn constrain investment and spending (why invest in a factory or buy something today when you could just hold onto cash and wait for the factory or product to get cheaper).

This has already happened with bit coin, some people who bought bitcoins when they were cheap are just holding them and not spending hoping they will go up in value.

My understanding is that for any currency to have worth supply has to be constrained. Normal currency is controlled by central banks that print money or raise and lower interest rates in order to control the relevant currency/economy(s). Crypto currency is created to reward people (miners) for using your computer to validate transactions. The only way to control the effective printing of money where the technology that makes the money keeps getting better at doing so, is to make solving the problem harder and harder.

That is my take on it anyway.... I find it all a bit mind blowing!
 
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It is rocketing in price because it is rocketing in price, so naturally it is going to carry on rocketing in price. See Tulip Mania, South Sea Bubble etc...

Yeah but the weird thing is that it seems to be a no laundering required currency for criminals because it is anonymous and it seems plenty of people look at what happened in 2007 and see a massive flaw in the system that hasn't really gone away. It is an odd one... but yeah it has to burst at some point.
 
My understanding is that for any currency to have worth supply has to be constrained. Normal currency is controlled by central banks that print money or raise and lower interest rates in order to control the relevant currency/economy(s). Crypto currency is created to reward people (miners) for using your computer to validate transactions. The only way to control the effective printing of money where the technology that makes the money keeps getting better at doing so, is to make solving the problem harder and harder.

That is my take on it anyway.... I find it all a bit mind blowing!

There has to be some control, you are correct. We can't all have money printing presses in our sheds!

In the case of fiat currency like the dollar or euro, the central banks have some control over the money supply via interest rates, QE etc.

In an ideal scenario the supply of dollars or euros will increase roughly in line with the supply of goods and services they can be used to buy.

If it expands too quickly we get inflation which isn't a problem if earnings and prices go up in tandem (or even if earnings go up quicker).

Assuming real inflation (roughly the earnings to prices ratio) is low and stable, then nominal inflation only makes it more or less attractive to hold cash.

Obviously hyper inflation is bad, but massive deflation can also be bad as people just hoard the cash and the system locks up.

Bitcoins etc have the tendency to deflate massively built in (alternatively, should somebody invent a super mining chip or algorithm you could get hyper inflation just as suddenly).

There is a good concept in the idea of being able to distribute the verification of transactions which is theoretically desperate from the creation of currency units.

I do have some ideas around currency, automation and the basic income which I'll (eventually) elaborate on in a separate thread.
 
There has to be some control, you are correct. We can't all have money printing presses in our sheds!

In the case of fiat currency like the dollar or euro, the central banks have some control over the money supply via interest rates, QE etc.

In an ideal scenario the supply of dollars or euros will increase roughly in line with the supply of goods and services they can be used to buy.

If it expands too quickly we get inflation which isn't a problem if earnings and prices go up in tandem (or even if earnings go up quicker).

Assuming real inflation (roughly the earnings to prices ratio) is low and stable, then nominal inflation only makes it more or less attractive to hold cash.

Obviously hyper inflation is bad, but massive deflation can also be bad as people just hoard the cash and the system locks up.

Bitcoins etc have the tendency to deflate massively built in (alternatively, should somebody invent a super mining chip or algorithm you could get hyper inflation just as suddenly).

There is a good concept in the idea of being able to distribute the verification of transactions which is theoretically desperate from the creation of currency units.

I do have some ideas around currency, automation and the basic income which I'll (eventually) elaborate on in a separate thread.

Cool [up] I find this subject rather interesting. Currency, equity trading and the like. It a form of elaborate gambling where psychology is more of a factor than anything else.

Read that then watch Billions... Fascinating.
 
Just wow.

1 of these things is worth 5600 quid. From literally nothing in comparison 5 years ago.

Why is this so? What's made it rocket stupidly in price?

Tulip madness. This happens from time to time. This speculative bubble is just dumber than most.
 
Hmmm. Maybe I'll throw out all my electric heaters and rely solely on GPU heating.. :rolleyes: We have some serious loong winters here. AND cold summers.
 
But really 'One Bitcoin Transaction Now Uses as Much Energy as Your House in a Week', there sure is something very wrong with this. I thought it was a joke first.
Talk about waste..
 
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But really 'One Bitcoin Transaction Now Uses as Much Energy as Your House in a Week', there sure is something very wrong with this. I though it was a joke first.
Talk about waste..

Does it though or is it a load of claptrap? Buy a coffee from costa using bitcoin and that uses as much energy as a house for a week..... My O'Meter goes full scale deflection. If it cost that much to facilitate the transaction then the system doesn't work.
 
I'm guessing that's the average? A larger transaction requires more "mining" than a tiny one? I really have no clue how this works [haha]
 
Does it though or is it a load of claptrap? Buy a coffee from costa using bitcoin and that uses as much energy as a house for a week..... My O'Meter goes full scale deflection. If it cost that much to facilitate the transaction then the system doesn't work.
See my previous post in this thread about why the estimate is overblown. Also, don't forget that this is only about Bitcoin: most other cryptocurrencies are much more efficient to mine. Both in electricity and hardware costs.

As for deflation: BTC has been designed from the get-go to have a cap on how much currency can be mined, so it was designed as a deflationary currency from the start. Mind you, while most economists (though not all) regard deflation in an economy as a bad thing, for reasons mentioned above, we are talking about deflation in currencies. In Bitcoin, it might have been a good idea, so as to offer it as a good alternative to traditional currencies, which are inflatory. Bear in mind that the project started at the beginning of 2009, when the global financial crisis was in full swing. In such times of economic hardship, many companies decide not to invest their assets in tangible investments, but to get some short-term gains on forex (foreign exchange) instead. (Which is an activity that produces even less "practical" value than cryptocurrency mining does.) Now, a deflationary currency can compete on that ground much better. Exchanging cryptocurrencies to fiat has always been seen as a big challenge to tackle, so competing better with forex was a must.
Also, since Bitcoin was originally designed as a currency that can even be used by poor people - "banking for the unbanked" - a deflationary currency would have actually been better for them. However, in this regard, BTC has failed, as average successful transaction fees of 3-9 USD aren't acceptable for "unbanked" folks. (Oh, and @ shreddog: no, larger transactions as in larger amounts don't really require more mining than tiny ones. More transactions do.)
Although there probably were other reasons for this decision too, I just couldn't find nor think of them.


The Bitcoin price rise: right now, what's driving it ever upward is the upcoming hard fork near the end of November. BTC will split in two different currencies, and since both will keep the old blockchains (up till the moment of the split), people will have the same amount in both currencies that they had. In essence, it's "free money" on the new chains. Hence why a lot of people are selling every other cryptocurrency and buying Bitcoin with them, or just buying it with traditional currencies. What will happen to the prices of both forked currencies is anyone's guess, although since in my opinion the currency is grossly overvalued right now, regardless of the fork, sooner or later they'll all correct to a much more reasonable level. Which will be a crash.
But with all bubbles in history, you can make good money if you get out in time before it all pops. It's just that it's hard to know when is the good time to cash out all your assets and buy something else instead.


Oh yeah, and mining difficulty. Cryptocurrencies that do allow mining (only a few don't) have a dynamic difficulty set. The basic idea is that the more computers that mine, the more difficult it'll get - to prevent the network paying too much currency to too many miners. So, since your operating costs are fixed, but the income from your mining will go down with increasing difficulty, your profits will go down. Eventually, once the difficulty is high enough that mining other currencies (for example, those with few miners and a low difficulty) becomes more profitable, many miners will switch to those. Which will in turn lead to the difficulty lowering, which in turns leads to profits increasing, then eventually the miners come back... You get the picture.
However, Bitcoin's difficulty and network hash rate have both been steadily increasing this past year because the increase in price (hence, mining income) outpaced these. To be honest, lots of things have happened with Bitcoin that weren't originally foreseen, and the new developers haven't been great at handling them.
 
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