Jump Range as a Balancing Factor

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Yes, jump range needs to be used as a balancing factor in Elite Dangerous. Or rather, mass is the balancing factor, and jump range is simply dependent on ship mass. To that point, some ships are designed more towards top end jump range trading hardpoints and combat prowess to be lightweight, while other ships are designed with weapons and armor prioritized thereby skimping on FSD size. Without the balancing factor you'd get a super ship, capable of everything, that would be better than any other choices. Like the Anaconda is now.

The Anaconda is funny one.
But when you really look at it, it's actually very well done.
It can be geared for ultra-lightweight, reaching incredible jump ranges, but generally being useless. (Aka Jumpaconda)
But then you load it up with weapons, and heavy combat modules, and you can bring the range right down to 20~ly(engineered).

In this regard, I think FD actually got it right, and more ships should be able to do something similar.

A super heavy combat FDL/Corvette should have an utterly pants jump range, but a lighter weight version should be fairly good, while still being able to perform its role (although not as well as the fully laden one). And a stripped one should be able to jump far, while being utterly useless. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Achibot]

This problem is very easily summarised, because it does not actually exist:

Jump-range is not a ship balancing factor, it is purely a function of FSD class and weight. Any two ships of the same weight with the same class FSD will jump the exact same distance. Let's take a stock Type 9 vs an Anaconda with some modules added to make up the weight difference:

Type 9 @ 1276t w/ 6A FSD -> Max Range 17.09ly
Anaconda @ 1276t w/ 6A FSD -> Max Range 17.09ly

Discussion over to be honest, FSD performance is purely based on weight and not "hidden balancing factors". Want an FDL to jump far? Make it lighter.

edit: Ninjaed by Mengy while on a work call.

A super heavy combat FDL/Corvette should have an utterly pants jump range, but a lighter weight version should be fairly good, while still being able to perform its role (although not as well as the fully laden one). And a stripped one should be able to jump far, while being utterly useless. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

You are describing the system exactly as it is implemented.... What is the point of this thread again?

 

[Jack Schitt]

The link is also in my OP.

Apologies; I speed-read the OP and didn't notice the underline was a link. Was trying to get a reply in before I lost my mobile signal. Always a risk!

To be honest I didn't even realise the threads had the same originator until I did the search, I just remembered the particular wording. There are actually two other very similar threads in the archives too, so it's not a unique request.

FWIW I never really minded the varying ranges on ships, and the combination of ship transfer and a cheap and available bubble hopper in the DBX has more or less negated it for me. I take the DBX to where I want to be, call in the required ship(s), run a few missions in the DBX then switch to the specialised ships for the CG or whatever I've come for. Slow and steady progress is all I've ever wanted from this game, and as long as whatever I earn in the CG is more than it cost me to get my fleet there, I consider it a win.

But I can understand how players with a very particular playstyle, or an exclusive goal at a particular time, might not feel the same way about "pay to wait". I don't think giving everything the same jump range is the answer though. It's fundamental to Elite's core that some ships can jump further in unit time than others.

I do sometimes wish (as others have suggested elsewhere) that the game was a bit more like FE2, with no module slots and size restrictions, so you could for instance fit an insanely large hyperdrive to a FDL but only by stripping almost everything else out. So it would have a massive jump range but no room for HRPs or SCBs, or would have to fit undersized thrusters. Something to shift the trade-off elsewhere.

 

[Vorxian]

Need an 8A on the cutter that can see it travel 90 LY per jump

 

[Xae]

This problem is very easily summarised, because it does not actually exist:

Jump-range is not a ship balancing factor, it is purely a function of FSD class and weight. Any two ships of the same weight with the same class FSD will jump the exact same distance. Let's take a stock Type 9 vs an Anaconda with some modules added to make up the weight difference:

Type 9 @ 1276t w/ 6A FSD -> Max Range 17.09ly
Anaconda @ 1276t w/ 6A FSD -> Max Range 17.09ly

Discussion over to be honest, FSD performance is purely based on weight and not "hidden balancing factors". Want an FDL to jump far? Make it lighter.

edit: Ninjaed by Mengy while on a work call.



You are describing the system exactly as it is implemented.... What is the point of this thread again?

Hull Weight is completely nonsensical at times though. It is just a "FSD Multiplier" magic number by any other name.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Balancing factor you say:
Combat balance or ship balance I ask?

Because for combat balance you are correct it serves no purpose. However, lets imagine for a second a world in Elite where every ship has identical range and fuel tanks. Ship balance would go out the window particularly for exploration and long range travel.


The reason jump range is so contentions is because it can be directly linked with time spent travelling. One could argue: Should power distributors be a balancing factor, if I have the weapons I should be able to fire them. Should manoeuvrability be a balancing factor? Armour, module bays, shield strengths etc etc

Hopefully this gets my point across. By removing one of the limiting factors we remove one of the decisions we as pilots have to make. Yes jump range is the most obvious target and some of the hypothetical I put above can be answered but JR is a balancing factor for ships. As a player I like to be put into situations I have to make choices as it helps shape my character in game.

 

[OfftheRails]

Agree 100%. It's long past time.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Balancing factor you say:
Combat balance or ship balance I ask?

Because for combat balance you are correct it serves no purpose. However, lets imagine for a second a world in Elite where every ship has identical range and fuel tanks. Ship balance would go out the window particularly for exploration and long range travel.


The reason jump range is so contentions is because it can be directly linked with time spent travelling. One could argue: Should power distributors be a balancing factor, if I have the weapons I should be able to fire them. Should manoeuvrability be a balancing factor? Armour, module bays, shield strengths etc etc

Hopefully this gets my point across. By removing one of the limiting factors we remove one of the decisions we as pilots have to make. Yes jump range is the most obvious target and some of the hypothetical I put above can be answered but JR is a balancing factor for ships. As a player I like to be put into situations I have to make choices as it helps shape my character in game.

I totally get what you're saying.



I too, like being forced to make a decision. I just feel the range of jump ranges on ships is a bit too much.

My combat/mission runner Anaconda (I know, the elephant in the room) can jump around 29ly (modified). Good weapons, shields, no armour. All equipment for PvE missions on board.
It can handle anything, bar PvP, which I don't do anyway.

My similarly equipped Corvette, can only manage 18ly, same system, good weapons, good shields, no armour.

The Python/FDL situation is similar. 26vs19ly(modified)

Why such a big difference? What gameplay purpose does that bring, except it generally takes my Corvette 33% longer to to get anywhere…? lol
I've made the same choice in outfitting(and engineering), with vastly different results.

I'd much prefer it, if I wanted an Uber mega death machine, the sheer mass would drag my jump range right down. That's fine.
But if I wanted a balanced loadout, like my Anaconda/Corvette, sacrificing some defences/mass for range, I'd actually like the range to be good. Lol


CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Xae]

Balancing factor you say:
Combat balance or ship balance I ask?

Because for combat balance you are correct it serves no purpose. However, lets imagine for a second a world in Elite where every ship has identical range and fuel tanks. Ship balance would go out the window particularly for exploration and long range travel.


The reason jump range is so contentions is because it can be directly linked with time spent travelling. One could argue: Should power distributors be a balancing factor, if I have the weapons I should be able to fire them. Should manoeuvrability be a balancing factor? Armour, module bays, shield strengths etc etc

Hopefully this gets my point across. By removing one of the limiting factors we remove one of the decisions we as pilots have to make. Yes jump range is the most obvious target and some of the hypothetical I put above can be answered but JR is a balancing factor for ships. As a player I like to be put into situations I have to make choices as it helps shape my character in game.

Because the largest aspect of travel time is not a game mechanic, it is the game engine loading.

FSD range as balance utterly fails because it balance ships based on loading times.

Which means that people with faster computers or faster clients (Non-Horizons client loads almost twice as fast) are effecting balance.

This would be like old old old Counter Strike where you could fire your pistol once per frame so more frames = faster shooting.

Now having different FSD acceleration curves for ships would be more interesting. Or even FSD spin up times.

 

[Achibot]

Hull Weight is completely nonsensical at times though. It is just a "FSD Multiplier" magic number by any other name.

The only nonsensical weight I can think of is that of the Anaconda, as it weighs less than quite a few medium ships.

Now having different FSD acceleration curves for ships would be more interesting. Or even FSD spin up times.

That would go against the lore as FSD technology is (now) based on the theoretical Alcubierre Drive, which operates independent of mass. Size matters, it would take more energy to envelop a larger ship, but the speed itself is based on how much you can compress the space in front of you while expanding the space behind you. You could make the case that SC speed could vary by FSD module size but I honestly can't see a decent gameplay reason for doing that as it would help and hurt various ships in a fairly arbitrary way, for no obvious gain.

 

[NascentChemist]

I totally get what you're saying.



I too, like being forced to make a decision. I just feel the range of jump ranges on ships is a bit too much.

My combat/mission runner Anaconda (I know, the elephant in the room) can jump around 29ly (modified). Good weapons, shields, no armour. All equipment for PvE missions on board.
It can handle anything, bar PvP, which I don't do anyway.

My similarly equipped Corvette, can only manage 18ly, same system, good weapons, good shields, no armour.

The Python/FDL situation is similar. 26vs19ly(modified)

Why such a big difference? What gameplay purpose does that bring, except it generally takes my Corvette 33% longer to to get anywhere…? lol
I've made the same choice in outfitting(and engineering), with vastly different results.

I'd much prefer it, if I wanted an Uber mega death machine, the sheer mass would drag my jump range right down. That's fine.
But if I wanted a balanced loadout, like my Anaconda/Corvette, sacrificing some defences/mass for range, I'd actually like the range to be good. Lol


CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

I've made a similar argument about the multi-role ship's ability to haul cargo. Just like the Corvette is marginally better at combat than the Anaconda, the T-9 has a marginally larger cargo hold. In both cases, the multi-role ship has enough ancillary advantages to beat the specialized ship in its given specialization.

Nerf the conda! Nerf the python! Free the space cow!

 

[Tadeus72]

Shorter travel time is additional money gained. Higher DPS is also additional money gained. A stronger shield which allows you to stay in the fight longer/not use up SCB fast - also money gained.

It's all about convenience and money. No difference if you make more money because you got there faster or because you had a higher dps that dropped the NPCs faster. All are valid advantages/drawbacks. No reason for Frontier not to use them to make ships different.

 

[Ziljan]

The reason that Frontier had to punish combat ships and make their jump range horrible was to FORCE you to use different ships for Exploration/Trade.

If they had designed the game properly, then Exploration and Trade ships would have either more efficient or unique internal module slots that made them more useful for these activities. For Trade ships, they almost got it right: lots of internal modules, few external modules. For Exploration ships however, they failed, because Exploration is so shallow, it only requires 3 internal modules, so the only way to distinguish an Exploration ship from a combat ship was range. However if they had been smart and made the Fuel Scoop a core rather than an optional module on Exploration Ships, and also had specialized exploration utility slots and associated scanning/sampling/probing gameplay, then it would be clear which ships were best for exploring.

Then there wouldn't be any be any need to pointlessly punish combat pilots by keeping them stuck in short jump range galactic Amber.

 

[JosiahD]

I'm not sure jump range really balances anything.

How many times have you used to your ships jump range to escape PvP? Or chased another CMDR, but been hindered by your own range?

In most cases, people pick to jump to any system to flee from an attack. And in pretty much all cases, there's no point chasing someone to another system because instancing won't guarantee you'll meet anyway. And in the event you actually brought a wake scanner, by the time you've used it, and followed them, your target may jump again, and be gone forever. Or your target may drop to normal space, and then jump to another system.

So basically, the only thing low jump range does, is force you to either; take longer to travel than most other ships, which means you're not doing what you want for a while longer than someone in a different ship,
or use the transfer feature, which also means not using your ship.

Not to mention, some ships, *cough*Corvette*cough*, can't even leave the system with the stock E rated FSD. That's just daft. Especially when no at in the system sell a good enough FSD to leave it. Lol

Again. I've gotten used to simply not using these lower ranged ships. Their jump range is a huge factor in whether I'll actually fly it or not.
Especially when another ship can do the same job, and jump further.
(Corvette Vs Anaconda, FDL Vs Python, etc).

And like I said, isn't the fuel tank and fuel per jump good enough balance?

If a Python and FDL had identical ranges, the Python will still outrun the FDL on the 4th jump, simply because it doesn't have to refuel.

It's all just a discussion anyway, I'm not asking for change.

The Engineers have sorted the main issue with the low ranges, of some ships simply not being able to travel well, because they spent more time jumping sideways the towards their destination.
On time, my FDL took 6 jumps to cover 17ly because of the star density. Lol
These days I can do it in one. So it's already massively improved.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

It's a balancing factor in my books as it drives choices in ship type and loadout. It's a balancing measure in that if you want a ship that can transit long distances faster, well the tradeoff is you might need to shed a few things to do so. No, it's not going to directly impact on a fight itself, so it's not a balancing factor in that respect, but if I have a longer jump range than my pursuer, then they'll find it difficult to pursue me if they so choose, instancing aside. That said, faster FSD charging is probably more of a balancing impact in terms of combat than range alone. Not saying FSD range couldn't be improved on some ships, but diversity is good.

 

[MrFuddyDuddy]

I agree corvette need 5ly adding minimum.
As for t9, mine jumps further than my python

While I would love a buff to the jump range of the Corvette I don't really think its needed. I have mine fully kitted for combat and Engineered, minus stuffing a ton of hull reinforcements in. She's currently sitting at 1722.7T's and has a 19.24LT range(full fuel) with a 19.90LY max which I think is pretty good for a combat ship of that size and potency. That's with a 49.5% increased range and a 2.7 increased max fuel per jump bonus. Not the best, and I don't know if grinding another however many rolls is worth the whole extra 1-2 LY's I could squeeze out of it.

 

[Xae]

The reason that Frontier had to punish combat ships and make their jump range horrible was to FORCE you to use different ships for Exploration/Trade.

If they had designed the game properly, then Exploration and Trade ships would have either more efficient or unique internal module slots that made them more useful for these activities. For Trade ships, they almost got it right: lots of internal modules, few external modules. For Exploration ships however, they failed, because Exploration is so shallow, it only requires 3 internal modules, so the only way to distinguish an Exploration ship from a combat ship was range. However if they had been smart and made the Fuel Scoop a core rather than an optional module on Exploration Ships, and also had specialized exploration utility slots and associated scanning/sampling/probing gameplay, then it would be clear which ships were best for exploring.

Then there wouldn't be any be any need to pointlessly punish combat pilots by keeping them stuck in short jump range galactic Amber.

We need more Internal Component slots types so everything stops being thrown into general ones.

Avionics for Scanners and Sensors.

Shields and Shield Boosters into military.

And no cross over between General, Military and Avionics slots.

Then take all the hulls and rebalance their configurations.

It has been 3 years. Ship fitting needs to be developed past the Minimum Viable Product stage.

 

[Gunnet]

Jump range is a perfectly reasonable balancing factor, and it shouldn't have been watered down by the introduction of ship transfer. The ability to fly around in a taxi ship and transfer in ultra-specialised ships just gave the latter an extra unneeded advantage compared to multi role ships.

 

[Surprised Brony]

Indeed, I feel that jump range is a perfectly valid balancing factor. Combat ships are built for war on a system-wide scale so they need all internal development dedicated to fitting proper Powerplants and Distributors. Some ships failed even in those departments but fitting a large FSD in order to bounty hunt or chase a target to harass them isn't the point. That's what a Python or Asp is for. Bounty Hunting=/=combat dedicated vessel.

If you ask me, the jump range should be the price for some other combat related buff for the ship. Combat ships could use a little more hull and armor than your average multi-role. As it is, hardpoints are the defining factor.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Here's what I find odd, and the reasoning behind my argument;

Here's a quick list of the big 3, plus the T9, and Beluga.
(Too tired to do anymore. Lol)
All ships are empty, and basically designed for maximum range, and no modifications. All serve no purpose, other than travel.

Anaconda: 39.38ly (6A FSD)
Beluga Liner: 29.84ly (6A FSD)
Imperial Cutter: 26.28ly (7A FSD)
Federal Corvette: 20.76ly (6A FSD)
Type-9 Heavy: 20.06ly (6A FSD)

So, 5 large ships. Nothing combat or anything about them, bare minimum to fly.
Essentially balanced perfectly (to do nothing), but the difference in range is just so different..! 100% different in some cases, for ships that are doing the exact same thing (nothing, lol).
Why should the Corvette and T9 owners take nearly twice as long to get anywhere, and have twice as many loading screens as the Anaconda?
Surely, as all empty ships of the same class, they should be roughly the same, within a couple of light-years...?
(Not exactly the same range, that would be weird)

What's even more odd, is the Cutter, at just 100t more than the T9 (6A FSD), can only jump 6ly further, on a Class 7A FSD.

It's very odd. Lol

And now I'm too tired to brain anymore.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Tadeus72]

No one says the ships in this game are balanced correctly.

The Type 9 should be probably buffed and the Conda nerfed (it has a ridiculous low mass for its size when you compare it to other ships).

But that doesn't change the fact that using jump range and or fuel as balancing factors makes sense.