the negative community narrative and the confirmation bias effect.

[Layne Vakarian]

A condition often associated with Minimum Viable Product.

It's what happens when you actively try to avoid Group Think and Scope Creep. Trouble is, in order to do so, you need to use a methodology which is consistent, even when allowing for organic growth. Otherwise you get an Anarchy system in Civil War.

I think what sums it up with an element of efficacy, is that currently...Frontier are the wrong side of "viable" as far as the user base is concerned.

The result is a perception, that they are taking the V out of MVP.

As perhaps one of Frontier's harshest critics, at least lately, this seems even MORE harsh. I DO think they are trying. I DO think they want to alleviate the concerns of the playerbase. I certainly don't think they don't care what we think. My own frustration is that they seem unable to decide exactly how to engage with us in a fashion which might see us all come out winners: they get more payers/money, we get the game we think we want.
(there may be a degree of irony in that last sentence)

 

[kofeyh]

Did you watch the stream last night? The Crime and Punishment thing is not/B] solely about PvP gankers - that was abundantly clear. It is about making it a more in depth system - for example the "hot ships" can be equated to the mechanic in GTA where you can swap cars to lower your wanted level, the "restricted contacts" discussed are probably the best way that a criminal underworld/fraternity can be implemented without Elite Feet and wandering to find them.

No I didn’t, being in a different Timezone (an Australian one) I was either working. Or asleep. But when this was first tabled by Sandro, it appeared to be an extension of the player only mechanics. They aren’t going to send AI to prison, but it hasn’t been clear at all that if you clobber a bunch of clean AI ships, you’ll be treated the same.

And the fact it’s been taking a large amount of explaining? Sandro means well. And he really does want to improve the situation. But it’s often been a highly complicated fix because that’s a lot more interesting and exciting.

Whether that works, however. Somewhat unclear.

Initial discussion appeared to be player specific. So you’ll excuse me if it looked a lot like more of the same.

Do you mean an iterative approach as in releasing more frequently? Nice in theory, and certainly achievable for a relatively simple application but I think it is fair to say that ED would be far from simple. Yes, feature branches are probably being used (assuming they're using a derivative of GIT and not the God-awful SVN) but it would still be a significant software configuration management overhead to merge to the main branch and release bi-weekly, for example.

No I mean don’t try to solve problems with singular gigantic complex beasts. There are several input factors to crime; and branched outcomes. Trying to solve most of it in one swing, is potentially not going to lead to a good outcome.

Iterate. Fix a concern. Then the next. Then the next. Adapt each to solve the next issue. That allows people to get their head around each small step, towards the greater direction. If something doesn’t work; don’t just rip the entire thing out, or give up. Redress, rebalance or rework. Then move on to the next.

How many times have we seen a thing go in, only to have it entirely wound back, and it being all but abandoned? There is time to get decent steps towards a greater goal, to build a complex solution, by itteratinng over basic building blocks.

People want crime solved tomorrow. It doesn’t work like that. Instead, the framework to manage, and steps to describe and redress, certainly can be.

 

[Genus]

I DO think they are trying.

I agree they seem to be trying more than usual lately, but are yet to be perceived to deliver anything based on that recent effort as a whole.

Let's be honest here, further to a few public pledges to be more engaged, a new bit on the forum governing feedback of one aspect of the game and some informative if not somewhat vague live casts, all of which is certainly encouraging...nothing has changed.

Frontier need to take the harvested information and now "do something useful with it", or be faced with a label of being all talk and no action, at a time when action is most definitely required.

I think based on recent evidence, Frontier would be the first to admit that they have been remiss in the active implementation of useful features. It's an important period in the games development now. They need to get the next bit right, but moreover, continue sustainably and avoid resting on any laurels that might be sown from a quick and popular fix to Crime and Punishment. There is so much more that needs to be looked at.

We just have to support and show confidence in, those looking at it and hope they finally have the right approach, in terms of game design.

Confidence will grow with every victory, but there is certainly less room for failure from here on in.

Fingers crossed.

I'm all for the recent pledges.

It's "nice".

There may also have been some irony affected during this post.

 

[xdeath]

It was really disappointing to have to hear Ed have to preface the live stream like he did.

Horizons hasn't been a great a release. It has had it's moments. 2.2 was pretty good, imo. It's true that it took way to long and most of the releases were lackluster. But I don't think it warrants that much negativity from the community.

The community has a right to be upset. Frontier failed to deliver on their promise. Horizons was supposed to be one year. It's taken way too long. I lost my patience. I expressed my disappointment constructively (I hope). Then I left. I didn't bother trolling the forums like some.

If you are disappointed or impatient with Frontier, express it constructively, then leave. Don't stick around making this a sour place for those who want to provide constructive feedback or enjoy other aspects of the community. Certainly, don't start berating FDev for trying to fix things. Better late than never.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

It was really disappointing to have to hear Ed have to preface the live stream like he did.

Horizons hasn't been a great a release. It has had it's moments. 2.2 was pretty good, imo. It's true that it took way to long and most of the releases were lackluster. But I don't think it warrants that much negativity from the community.

The community has a right to be upset. Frontier failed to deliver on their promise. Horizons was supposed to be one year. It's taken way too long. I lost my patience. I expressed my disappointment constructively (I hope). Then I left. I didn't bother trolling the forums like some.

If you are disappointed or impatient with Frontier, express it constructively, then leave. Don't stick around making this a sour place for those who want to provide constructive feedback or enjoy other aspects of the community. Certainly, don't start berating FDev for trying to fix things. Better late than never.

I looked. I read. I SOOOOO told myself not to reply.
But the thing is matey, I'm weak, you see, and prepared to admit it.
First up, the last thing the community needs is supposedly disinterested bystanders (you said that you left), wandering in and offhandedly expressing support for Frontier. Better late than never you say? Well, true. Couldn't agree more. However, apart from some 'threads', I've yet to see evidence that Frontier is REALLY trying. Sure, sure, they are trying. Trying to avert a revolt is what I'm seeing. Trying to actively engage with the playerbase? This I am NOT seeing, frankly. Cosying up to a few 'headline' player groups, certainly. Throwing up a PR wall? Absolutely. Looking to understand the frustrations of the majority? Not seeing it. Not so far. I live in hope, however....

 

[xdeath]

I looked. I read. I SOOOOO told myself not to reply.
But the thing is matey, I'm weak, you see, and prepared to admit it.
First up, the last thing the community needs is supposedly disinterested bystanders (you said that you left), wandering in and offhandedly expressing support for Frontier. Better late than never you say? Well, true. Couldn't agree more. However, apart from some 'threads', I've yet to see evidence that Frontier is REALLY trying. Sure, sure, they are trying. Trying to avert a revolt is what I'm seeing. Trying to actively engage with the playerbase? This I am NOT seeing, frankly. Cosying up to a few 'headline' player groups, certainly. Throwing up a PR wall? Absolutely. Looking to understand the frustrations of the majority? Not seeing it. Not so far. I live in hope, however....

I wouldn't really consider myself a disinterested bystander. I bought the game. I dedicated enough time into the game that I actually got a little attention for finding the first Ancient Ruins site.

I believe that my opinion is just as valid as yours even if it is the opposite. We both generally want the same thing. Yours is just a more negative outlook.

Overtly negative and overtly positive view points are generally not helpful. They divisive more often than not. Overt Positivity ignores flaws and disregards potential problems. Overt negativity devolves into doomsaying and trolling.

The beyond series of updates was something I have been begging for since 2.2. I am not going to berate FDev for finally bringing them about, even if it is incredibly late.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

I wouldn't really consider myself a disinterested bystander. I bought the game. I dedicated enough time into the game that I actually got a little attention for finding the first Ancient Ruins site.

I believe that my opinion is just as valid as yours even if it is the opposite. We both generally want the same thing. Yours is just a more negative outlook.

Overtly negative and overtly positive view points are generally not helpful. They divisive more often than not. Overt Positivity ignores flaws and disregards potential problems. Overt negativity devolves into doomsaying and trolling.

The beyond series of updates was something I have been begging for since 2.2. I am not going to berate FDev for finally bringing them about, even if it is incredibly late.

Well first of all, your opinion is absolutely as valid as mine: whether you believe it or not is kinda irrelevant, opinions is opinions and all are equally valid.
As to mine being a more negative outlook, well sure, I won't deny it. But perhaps you will indulge me: They (Frontier) have had nigh on four years. NOW they showcase 'Beyond', (which I quietly forecast to be bugridden and incomplete). Frankly, I almost don't care anymore. Elite Dangerous, excuse me, Elite...(84)..has these nasty buggers called Thargoids. That you kill, if you can. Oh wait. Suddenly they are pacifist escape-pod farmers that only get annoyed if you're nicking their stuff.
No, Sorry.
Somebody
SOMEBODY!
At Fdev Towers needs sticking against a wall and shooting.
Twice.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

If people did not care, they would not get upset and post, or vent about their frustrations. With games that I truly loathe, from companies that I truly loath, I celebrate their downfalls. I love when Activision and EA face backlash for their greed etc.

However censoring people, or attempting to force a Kumbaya mentality is just as harmful. Many many people complain about the tedium and the grind, however how often does Frontier improve drop rates? How often are extremely rare materials made more common? How about we compare that to how often Frontier will remove features or nerf means of progression that they deem too efficient.. this is what personally creates a lot of frustration for me. Frontier often seen willing to protect their status quo, because they realize just like we do that there is a lack of rewarding and meaningful depth. It's going to generate frustration when you see action on one front and inaction on others.

The entire mindset of Frontier games seems to be, "We will make/do what we want, and you will deal with it". That's their right, but it is also the right of the community to leave or to not support their products now and in the future.

This community does have many people that voiced their frustrations, but it also has many people that apologize for some of the game's largest problems. In my opinion those people are more harmful then those that you speak of.

The game will never improve without criticism. The real problem is that there are too many people that tell people that they aren't worthy of being considered, too much elitism setting arbitrary barriers to what they deem worthy consideration, too much criticism of those unwilling to tolerate unreasonable grinding as nothing more than petulant children. There are too many in this community that think that they are entitled to express their own opinion yet also dictate who else they deem is worthy to do the same, which is completely hypocritical.

Some people do get very angry or frustrated true. I also believe that Frontier may actually want a better game at times. Yet I also see how vehemently they defend their status quo.

These facts combined with the fact that Frontier tends to not communicate much only seek to increase the amount of frustration many people feel. Only now have Frontier begun to properly communicate. They have released new content or updates, and some of them have been positive. However it is also true that many core gameplay features in this game have gone ignored for a long time. Holo-me, multi-crew, etc are appreciated.. however they also do not address many of the core issues in the game which in turn creates frustration for those who have been patiently awaiting improvements.

You should applaud those that stick with it and swallow their frustration hoping for a better game. Because I assure you, if people did not do that, this community would be much smaller than it already is.

Point to a thread where these "harmful" folks have apologized for the game's largest problems?

Funny how you lable people that disagree with you as "harmful" while chiding someone for disagreeing with others...

 

[Spacecat]

I still like the game but various features have been implemented with quite a bit of "Meh".

 

[M00ka]

Well first of all, your opinion is absolutely as valid as mine: whether you believe it or not is kinda irrelevant, opinions is opinions and all are equally valid.
As to mine being a more negative outlook, well sure, I won't deny it. But perhaps you will indulge me: They (Frontier) have had nigh on four years. NOW they showcase 'Beyond', (which I quietly forecast to be bugridden and incomplete). Frankly, I almost don't care anymore. Elite Dangerous, excuse me, Elite...(84)..has these nasty buggers called Thargoids. That you kill, if you can. Oh wait. Suddenly they are pacifist escape-pod farmers that only get annoyed if you're nicking their stuff.
No, Sorry.
Somebody
SOMEBODY!
At Fdev Towers needs sticking against a wall and shooting.
Twice.

I know you pride yourself on being FD's Harshest Critic (that must wow them when someone reads that on your resume) but comparing the mechanics and gameplay of Elite 84 against ED is just stretching the male bovine excrement meter a little too much. Elite 84 was a single player game, what you did in the game didn't effect anyone else, you didn't have to worry about other real life players and the story was by today's standards, pretty simplistic. But 33 years later, we now have a game that has to cater for a very diverse group of players sharing the a singular BGS. I know it is hard for FD's Harshest Critic to believe, but some players don't care about the Thargoids. It isn't because of the poor introduction into the story (and even I admit FD could have done it better, much better), it is just these players are out doing other things that they enjoy in the game. Heck, there is even a growing community who are pushing the concept that the Thargoids are the 'good guys' in the conflict and we should be leaving them alone. That wasn't present in Elite 84, you just killed them if you can, or you died - pretty simple stuff huh.

 

[Genus]

Mostly, you just died.

Getting dragged into Witchspace was the original Elite's way, of reminding you that you had to eat.

 

[xdeath]

But perhaps you will indulge me: They (Frontier) have had nigh on four years. NOW they showcase 'Beyond', (which I quietly forecast to be bugridden and incomplete). Frankly, I almost don't care anymore. Elite Dangerous, excuse me, Elite...(84)..has these nasty buggers called Thargoids. That you kill, if you can. Oh wait. Suddenly they are pacifist escape-pod farmers that only get annoyed if you're nicking their stuff.

Well... it would be nice to know what you wanted indulged.

Frontier did a big mistake when they announced Horizon's with all it's promised features, back in summer 2015. The game was less than a year old(not sure where you got 4 years from, the game was released late December 2014), so many of us were still optimistic at the time. They also promised that they would still be working on the base game as well.

Specifically, they said that Horizons would have certain features that would be released in a certain time frame. They were obligated to both release those features and fulfill that time frame. I don't really understand it fully, but that whole Britain leaving the European Union thing also coincided the delays between updates. I'm not from Europe, I don't really understand the whole thing. All I know was what I heard, and I heard Britain's economy tanked. Which would, in theory, effect the development of the game, as it would effect any business.
Anyways, Frontier had to choose between fulfilling the feature list or the time frame. They chose the former.
I really don't care for most of 2.x. 2.2 was good, I've already said that. Frontier was still obligated to finish those features. I'm willing to give them a free year due to the state of the UK at the time.

That all being said. Beyond is late, 1-2 years late. I agree that Horizons was not a good idea. It was too early. They should have focused on the console releases as well as optimizing core gameplay. But, whatever, this is what we are given to work with, let's hope the lesson was learned and they can do better.

Edit: PS. As for the Thargoids... story stuff is subjective. I think the abduction of escape pods is creepy and cool. But I also think the Thargoids are too little too late. Those delays effed with the story huge. The pacing was all thrown off, and I am just not as invested as I once was.

 

[Boff'in]

Op here - glad to see I opened up a can of worms.

I'm not white knighting and I'm glad to see some sensible discussion about how the game launched.

In the crime and punishment video Sandy stated that they were a little green in the beginning and even Braben stated "they got it wrong".

So a lot of the "narrative" been bandied round has effectively been confirmed.
They built a game that a whole company was convinced would "do" and they'll add in more later - and to degree they where correct as some people were content.

So round of applause. Our suspicions were correct.

At least they figured out mistakes were made, that mmo stables like squadrons and wings were needed (and at launch).

That the black box progression system with factions (making the game hard to read) was also some stuff that should have been inat launch.

Great! They are correcting mistakes that a whole company signed off on originally.

And of course there is theconstant desire to have they space game people dreamed off, but in their hands now, before star citizen and No man Sky, and if not - anger, frustration, lashing out.
And they lash out at the usual suspects that they believe are the responsible parties.

So ongoing persecution of various staff members (Samarco for example) and are pinned as being solely responsible for the state of the game needs to stop.

(Just going over the comments in an Obsidian ant video was some hate slamming on Sandy stating all his games were boring. So I went fact checking and of the 3 games they all rated fairly well on steam).
But the narrative has stuck.

FD As a company misunderstood the types of players who would be drawn to elite. It was never supposed to be a full on mmo but now it must. It was supposed to be a tough game that we had to figure out.
Now we want simpler systems with more feedback, onboarding.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...We got a game that works and is a lot of fun to inhabit...

I like Elite: Dangerous

#MeToo

 

[Ian Skippy]

Its the internet. When you take a step back (and have been around here for a bit) you'll notice there are about a dozen deeply frustrated dudes who have been driving down the whineway for years now, starting their (bi-)weekly "I wish this game was better/FD sucks/I'll tell all my friends/I am a much better designer/[insert game] will be so much better/ED will die in [insert random timeframe]" topics.

Just take a step back and thank your deity of preference you're not so obsessed with a game you feel trapped by it. Some people have been playing since launch, some have been whining since launch, most have played at one time or another, went on with their lives and occasionally check back to see if this game offers some additional entertainment. Two of these three are fine, one is rather depressing. I think they themselves know it, hence the constant need for validation from the other chronic disillusioned.

"No, its really fine to hang around a forum of a computer game for years, day after day, just to tell everyone you don't like that one game. I do the same!"

 

[Deleted member 38366]

IMHO OP is confusing two things :

Negativity vs. Reality

What we're seeing all around ED is Reality setting in, nothing more but the naked results of direction and actions (or lack thereof) taken by Frontier.
Most if not all a completely logical and a widely expected long-term result. And it's not like they haven't been warned or strongly advised properly by an insanely patient and generally extremely helpful community over the last years.

Problem is : hope dies last - but eventually it does.
And with it, even hardcore supporters have realized what's going on. Completely normal. If anything, the whole process took a tad longer than expected.

V3.x "Beyond - The big ED Crash recovery Phase" will tell if they've finally gotten the memo and can still turn things around. Not holding my breath though, the "zero expectations" approach suits this Title extremely well so far.

 

[Ian Skippy]

IMHO OP is confusing two things :

Negativity vs. Reality

What we're seeing all around ED is Reality setting in, nothing more but the naked results of direction and actions (or lack thereof) taken by Frontier.
Most if not all a completely logical and a widely expected long-term result. And it's not like they haven't been warned or strongly advised properly by an insanely patient and generally extremely helpful community over the last years.

Problem is : hope dies last - but eventually it does.
And with it, even hardcore supporters have realized what's going on. Completely normal. If anything, the whole process took a tad longer than expected.

V3.x "Beyond - The big ED Crash recovery Phase" will tell if they've finally gotten the memo and can still turn things around. Not holding my breath though, the "zero expectations" approach suits this Title extremely well so far.

Or, alternatively, some still haven't gotten the memo that ED is a game, a $50 piece of entertainment, and not a religion that will bring salvation to your life. Those who understand that tend to have a much different perspective, and tend not to confuse 'dreams' with 'missed potential'.

Not getting my hopes up myself as I know some simply cannot accept this. They will cling to ED until something else with Potential shows up, then they'll jump ship and complain on those boards for a few years until they realize they have been Betrayed and Not Respected by [insert dev team], so they will Feel Gutted and jump to yet another shiney with Potential. We had NMS for a bit for it, now SC, but as that is starting to fall apart I can already see the Avant Garde of sci-fi Believers move to X4. Before too long people will have spend a decade being frustrated and angry about sci-fi games at a time when it has never been better. And that is the real sad thing.

 

[babelfisch]

IMHO OP is confusing two things :

Negativity vs. Reality

What we're seeing all around ED is Reality setting in, nothing more but the naked results of direction and actions (or lack thereof) taken by Frontier.
Most if not all a completely logical and a widely expected long-term result. And it's not like they haven't been warned or strongly advised properly by an insanely patient and generally extremely helpful community over the last years.

Problem is : hope dies last - but eventually it does.
And with it, even hardcore supporters have realized what's going on. Completely normal. If anything, the whole process took a tad longer than expected.

V3.x "Beyond - The big ED Crash recovery Phase" will tell if they've finally gotten the memo and can still turn things around. Not holding my breath though, the "zero expectations" approach suits this Title extremely well so far.

While I absolutely agree that the game still needs lots of improvements and that they went wrong with most of the headline features...

"And it's not like they haven't been warned or strongly advised properly by an insanely patient and generally extremely helpful community over the last years."

That's absolutely not true. Yes, these people exist, but it's maybe 1/10. The community (or better the loudest part in the Dangerous Discussion subsection) is absolutely toxic. It's impossible to get any constructive feedback between all the "the game will die!", "the game already is dead!", "listen to me you idiots!" posts.

 

[Genus]

It's impossible to get any constructive feedback between all the "the game will die!", "the game already is dead!", "listen to me you idiots!" posts.

On the contrary.

I think there is plenty of constructive and rational feedback and criticism on these boards.

Moreover, Frontier themselves have admitted the need for change and that they have got it wrong in some directions, and good for them...that takes beachballs. So if you disagree with that approach, or cry to the heavens that there is no demand for changes to be made, you're disagreeing with Frontier.

And if that is the case, quite frankly.

How dare you.

 

[babelfisch]

On the contrary.

I think there is plenty of constructive and rational feedback and criticism on these boards.

Moreover, Frontier themselves have admitted the need for change and that they have got it wrong in some directions, and good for them...that takes beachballs. So if you disagree with that approach, or cry to the heavens that there is no demand for changes to be made, you're disagreeing with Frontier.

And if that is the case, quite frankly.

How dare you.

Do you even read?!
"While I absolutely agree that the game still needs lots of improvements and that they went wrong with most of the headline features..."