the negative community narrative and the confirmation bias effect.

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Problem is: From the beginning all ships had an interior that indicates that "sometimes" we will be able to walk around, the same applies to stations. It was designed like that from the very beginning. But this is 3 years ago, and nothing has happened in that direction. I say it with x-files: I want to believe. But I totally lost confidence after that desastrous 2.4 release and FX17. I have very small hopes for the future, as said before, because they did more or less nothing new this year. We have seen the Thargoids back in February, and except some color changes and parameter changes nothing really new has happened yet. Also the beige planets are still here. My conclusion is: They didnt work on Elite and they won´t work any longer, except with a very small team which has yet to understand Sandros complex spreadsheets :)

Nevertheless there´s a small - very small - chance they are working very sneakily on something new that is not ready to announce yet or they want to sell it with a big bang - but that chance is too small to set hope in it.

Yes, time has passed faster than the amount of development would let us believe.
 
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@devari

Let's simplify the discussion
Is the game broken?

Some parts of it are, yes.

Net code that doesn't work

That would be the mission boards that are still not working properly.

Multiple consistent Crashes

Yes, this happens frequently under various circumstances, especially during multicrew.

Missing textures.

The textures might not be completely "missing" but there are still severe graphics problems. I've had severe texture flickering when driving on planetary surfaces for several months, it's some sort of lighting issue. Also star textures don't load in for a few seconds when jumping to a new system, the textures are initially extremely low-res and it destroys immersion, and that still isn't fixed. If I were exploring I'd be very disappointed as it would be basically immersion destroying all the time.

Missing collision boxes.

No, but that's a very specific issue.

Massive ping spikes.

The only reason that this isn't an issue is because your computer is running most of the game for you on your local client. If you check your bandwith you'll see that the main issues occur when there is another CMDR in your instance who you are connected to with the P2P connection.

Fails to connect.

Yes, that happens rather frequently when the servers are having problems. Either the game won't load at all or the game can't retrieve missions from the mission server.

Menus that are unintuitive.

Yes, this is getting slightly better but the UI is not one of Elite's strengths.

Menus that don't go to the pages they claim to represent.

No, but it can still take 10-20 seconds to load the Galaxy or System maps at times. When this happens it's a problem because your ship still continues doing whatever it was doing when you selected the menu option with no player input. There is currently no way to "cancel" out of a menu loading attempt if your ship is in danger which means you can crash into stuff or get blown up without having any way to react while the map loads.

Interaction with various system does not give the desired consequence that the game has broadcasted.

Yes, this happens all the time, especially with broken system states and mission generation. Problems with massacre missions and War system states is probably the most common issue, but there are all sorts of BGS problems that are not working properly.

Flight model that is incomprehensible.

I wouldn't call it "incomprehensible", but it could certainly use some improvements.

All the Star systems that are too far apart, and planets that are a jumbled mess of polygons.

I'm not even sure what you mean by this. What you're describing there is a game that isn't even at the alpha stage.

So is it broken?

Yes, those areas I mentioned would be considered broken for a AAA game that is now three years after launch, especially a game like Elite that relies heavily on immersion and consistency to hold a player's attention.

Or incomplete?

It is also incomplete based on what FD told us they were going to be developing for Horizons, and what we had expected to see in terms of improvements to core game mechanics 3 years after launch.

incomplete 1:
missing headline features atmosphere,

Incomplete 2: space legs.

Incomplete 3:
Original Design goal for a smaller niche audience, and not a large demographic, to bring an online multiplayer aspect to a harsh, unhelpful procedurally generated galaxy which is a money collecting grindfest with no other loftier goal. (Except Elite 3 which had the inra-thargoid story)
Which will miss out on mmo staples such as player communications, clans, guilds, ability to block, punish players for exploiting game mechanics, circumventing intended mechanics and griefing other online players.

You have enough funds and resources to pick 2 of the above and fix
Which ones would you prioritize?

I'm not even expecting FD to go anywhere near space legs or atmospheric planets, I can tell that FD will never put in the resources needed to even start to work on those issues. So essentially I would be looking at addressing option 3. FD will barely be giving the Elite development team enough resources to do that properly.

What I would like to see prioritized is the following (in no particular order):

1. Crime and punishment system that makes sense and provides real consequences that limit griefing and trolling. They are working on this right now, so we will probably see it improved within the next year.

2. Consistent economy and mission rewards where players can afford to operate larger ships and have a reason to use them. This is still a massive mess and basically means that players have to continually search the forums for the most lucrative income generating methods and spam them until they're nerfed. This causes tremendous imbalances in the gameplay, especially for new players who often want to set larger ships as a gameplay goal but can't achieve it without finding new semi-exploitive methods to earn income.

3. Consistent combat mechanics where the risk/reward features are balanced. They've more or less got the Engineering aspects balanced (at least as well as they can balance them) but the rest of the combat features really need to be looked at. This means looking at things like giving multicrew pilots a way to be saved from ship destruction. Spending 12 hours to retrain a Dangerous pilot is not an acceptable risk/reward balance. It also means that mutlicrew game balance needs to be addressed as it is very rewarding for the CMDR flying the multicrew ship (pip bonus and rebuy discount) but very unrewarding for a new player (5% incomes are not really worth it at all).

4. Trading needs an in-game tool with accurate system states and there needs to be some way to identify or predict commodity values when searching for trade routes. This has gone far too long without being addressed and without third-party sites trading is for too frustrating.

5. New features need to add complexity and depth to the game and remain useful for starting players all the way through to "endgame" players with billions of credits. This will require careful balancing, for example, with player-owned carriers there is not going to be a single ship that can do this properly. They are probably going to need to develop different "sizes" of carriers to allow the gameplay to be accessible to everyone. They could use "small" carriers (inexpensive to operate but limited to small pad ships) so that a small group of relatively new players can use the new game mechanics, "medium" carriers (expanded to medium pads) for more experienced CMDRs and "large" carriers (most expensive but can handle large pad ships) as "endgame" content. Otherwise carrier are just going to end up like ship transfers, they will be treated like a massive "credit sink" for players with billions of credits but won't be used by the majority of the playerbase.

Notice that I haven't said anything about bug fixes, those are assumed to be necessary as an ongoing maintenance of the game like any other online game and should happen at the same time as these other improvements are happenign. I also haven't said anything about expanding exploration, I realize that is a lost cause as the game does not have the depth needed to even address this issue. I could also care less about the Thargoids as they've already turned them into very limited niche content that most players will ignore. At this point I just want to see the core gameplay features function well and to see new features designed so that the entire community can use and enjoy them.
 
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So what you are saying is, you want to prioritize fixing the game and improving the core experience and underlying system that drives them?

Remind what Beyond intends to do?
 
So what you are saying is, you want to prioritize fixing the game and improving the core experience and underlying system that drives them?

Remind what Beyond intends to do?

Stupid system, I can't rep you again - here have an IOU for one :D
 
Star Citizen has done far more with their money so far than Elite has and they have dealt with some very high-level technical challenges.

Wait, was SC released this past week, and did I just miss the news??? :eek:

I feel like a lot of the negativity in the community has to do with comparing Elite to things which aren't comparable, like tech demos. We should instead keep the focus on Elite itself for this discussion.
 
I get where he is comming from Space legs is my number 1 feature, I was gutted horizons came first, but it makes sense with the Background Sim having like a 1 orbital processing facility for a whole system that was a mining system.

Beyond sucks because its a slapp in the face because it underlines how much work is needed before we can get there.
and it works that begrudingly NEEDS to get done, regardless of wanting Spacelegs.

And thats a bitter pill to swallow for us space legs people.

However

Getting the game right, is paramount.
 
I suspect, like with many things, the E:D plan did not pan out as intended and other more lucrative opportunities presented themselves to FDEV and as a company with shareholders, is is their fiscal duty to follow the money... While we, here, are all (to some extent) space fans, the vast majority of the world are not. Planet Coaster is in the highly successful build/sim genre and Jurassic Park is, well, Jurassic Park. It would be remiss of FDEV to send good money after bad and continue placing the bulk of their investment in this game.

I believe that PC was a bigger hit and easier to implement (on Cobra) than they expected and then they leveraged their "theme park experience" in a subsequent proposal for JP, which paid off and the rest -as they say- including this game, is history.

I honestly believe that they are merely fulfilling legal requirements suggested by their lawyer to honour the LEPs that were purchased post kickstarter and paying lip service to David Braben since it was his baby before FDEV became a 300+ person company... kind of like how Apple maintain(ed) the Apple TV as a "hobby."
 
Wait, was SC released this past week, and did I just miss the news??? :eek:

I feel like a lot of the negativity in the community has to do with comparing Elite to things which aren't comparable, like tech demos. We should instead keep the focus on Elite itself for this discussion.

The best was earlier in the thread where someone said that, of the two games, ED is stuck in purgatory while SC is delivering what players actually want.
 
What did Horizons "intend" to do? How much of that was actually achieved?

Add new gameplay beyond (pun intended) original Elite pitch?

Let's look - airless planetary bodies, check, SRV gameplay, check, passengers (my favorite), check, Thargoids, looking good, check, Engineers, not my cup of tea, but I guess there are only few scenarios how to implement crafting, check.

So yes, it achieved what it intended. Not every element clicked with players and that's why FD decided to concentrate on base game before release any other new DLC and retire season model and most likely will sell next paid for DLC for face value.
 
Add new gameplay beyond (pun intended) original Elite pitch?

Let's look - airless planetary bodies, check, SRV gameplay, check, passengers (my favorite), check, Thargoids, looking good, check, Engineers, not my cup of tea, but I guess there are only few scenarios how to implement crafting, check.

So yes, it achieved what it intended. Not every element clicked with players and that's why FD decided to concentrate on base game before release any other new DLC and retire season model and most likely will sell next paid for DLC for face value.

I'd have to agree with this assessment if only for the issue that the biggest pitching point for "Horizons" was planetary landings. The rest was "fluff" added around the release. (multicrew, engineers, etc.)

Horizons was indeed released with planetary landings and SRV exploration... and many other features were tacked on afterward.

Now, it may be debatable to others as to exactly how much "value" that adds- but I still remember before Horizons was released wishing we had the ability to move in closer to the planets and explore them. I believe for what I paid for Horizons I got my money's worth.
 
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Now, it may be debatable to others as to exactly how much "value" that adds- but I still remember before Horizons was released wishing we had the ability to move in closer to the planets and explore them. I believe for what I paid for Horizons I got my money's worth.

I think Horizons season model caused lot of grief and complains regarding "is it worth it?", because you got 5 updates over 2 years which skews things considerably. That's why I understand why FD will steer clear from concept.

Would Horizons will be released with all major gameplay elements as one update it would be clearly worth 25€.
 
I think Horizons season model caused lot of grief and complains regarding "is it worth it?", because you got 5 updates over 2 years which skews things considerably. That's why I understand why FD will steer clear from concept.

Would Horizons will be released with all major gameplay elements as one update it would be clearly worth 25€.

We had the same amount of complaints when everyone thought it will just take 1 year though ;)
 
I suspect, like with many things, the E:D plan did not pan out as intended and other more lucrative opportunities presented themselves to FDEV and as a company with shareholders, is is their fiscal duty to follow the money... While we, here, are all (to some extent) space fans, the vast majority of the world are not. Planet Coaster is in the highly successful build/sim genre and Jurassic Park is, well, Jurassic Park. It would be remiss of FDEV to send good money after bad and continue placing the bulk of their investment in this game.

I believe that PC was a bigger hit and easier to implement (on Cobra) than they expected and then they leveraged their "theme park experience" in a subsequent proposal for JP, which paid off and the rest -as they say- including this game, is history.

I honestly believe that they are merely fulfilling legal requirements suggested by their lawyer to honour the LEPs that were purchased post kickstarter and paying lip service to David Braben since it was his baby before FDEV became a 300+ person company... kind of like how Apple maintain(ed) the Apple TV as a "hobby."


This is really what happened especially with the legal bit for recognizing deferred revenue which they clearly mention in a number of their financial releases. Have to go read the Sept release and see if there's any comments on when their obligation ends...

Edit: in the FDev 2017 report it appears as though Elite is now 'fully recognized'. Only PC is mentioned as having any deferred revenue, and the change reflects Elite's balance from 2016. So it looks like there's no more financial obligations.

Edit #2: actually, there's some chilling words for die-hard fans in the 2017 report on page 7 - "As well as Jurassic World Evolution being infull production we are in the early stages of planning our next two, asyet unannouncedfranchises.". So be patient for any hope of a new Elite 2.0 as it looks like two new franchises are next in line.
 
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I think Horizons season model caused lot of grief and complains regarding "is it worth it?", because you got 5 updates over 2 years which skews things considerably. That's why I understand why FD will steer clear from concept.

Would Horizons will be released with all major gameplay elements as one update it would be clearly worth 25€.

Whilst I agree with the differences people had with the "season model" (I too, still don't believe that this was the best business model for FD to adopt), I don't believe complaints about the features that were introduced are fair.

They promised planetary landings, we got planetary landings.

I also believe the majority of complaints and negativity are caused by promises made from the Kickstarter which were not implemented, then FD's decision to throw in an additional DLC release model that contained some features that were promised originally. Perhaps people felt as if they had been "duped" because their initial investment into the game wasn't honored.

Are they unsatisfied with the features, or unsatisfied with the business model itself? My belief is it's mainly the latter. When people criticize the game and say it's "unplayable" that's simply not true- it's indeed playable, it just may not contain your own "wishlist" of everything you wanted to see- you may even be "bored" with the content (because it's not what you want to do), but many others are playing and enjoying it just fine with the content that has been released.

Are there problems with the game? YES. There are many issues people have with it, many bugs that need to be worked out, much more content that can (and likely will) be released... and this takes time. If people don't have the patience to wait it out- that's not FD's "fault" nor their responsibility. That's on the player. One simply needs to ask themselves if they're able to be patient enough- or if they need to cut their losses and move on. Personally, I have the patience to wait for FD to really work on the content and will enjoy what already has been released until then. I too, have a "wishlist" of features I'd love to see implemented- and I hope they are. If they aren't, and I feel myself unsatisfied with this game, I'll move on to something else. I'm not a "shareholder", nor do I own stock in the company- I'm not on the Board of Directors, I'm just another customer who has bought a product they released.

Complaining constantly on the forums rehashing the same arguments isn't going to speed things up, contrary to popular belief. It doesn't "motivate" anyone, and it's not creating "competition", either.

Suggestions are a different story- I don't begrudge anyone for making suggestions- just realize that what you're suggesting may never come to pass, and set your own expectations accordingly.
 
I love playing this game!
It's 5am and I'm gonna play a couple of hours before I have to work!
The French press is locked and loaded.

Whoohoo!


*Pewpewpew!!! Whooossssh!!!*



Even got my morning dose of strawman over in that locked thread too! Life is good.

Cheers everyone!
Choose your experience.

o7


[video=youtube;VF1x-SRRIIk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF1x-SRRIIk[/video]
 
multicrew another worthless update??

Let's chart a development path to a simple goal - boarding a derelict ship.

1. Have designs for internal structure of ships.

2. Have artwork for various states of the vessels.

3. Fix gameplay ideas of what to do on that ship

4. Fix the net code so people can be together on ships


- oh wait,
People need to have something to do on the ships.



But dang we can't balance the careers and tasks on the ships until we really nail down that net-code.

Right. We need to push out a patch with the net code. Damn it!!! we need faces - avatars.
 
I'm gonna guess: add additional hours of content to the base game? Then again, I dont understand game development so take it with a pinch of salt. ;)


Lol, I think you understand it better than you're saying out loud.

Think of something that should be able to be done in an hour of gameplay.

Insert nonsense and irrationality into the process so that it ends up taking a day.

Bingo.

Elite Dangerous.

Saves them having to actually create things as an invested approach, so they can hop off and make money on Theme Parks and Dinosaurs.
 
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multicrew another worthless update??

Let's chart a development path to a simple goal - boarding a derelict ship.

1. Have designs for internal structure of ships.

2. Have artwork for various states of the vessels.

3. Fix gameplay ideas of what to do on that ship

4. Fix the net code so people can be together on ships


- oh wait,
People need to have something to do on the ships.



But dang we can't balance the careers and tasks on the ships until we really nail down that net-code.

Right. We need to push out a patch with the net code. Damn it!!! we need faces - avatars.

As it stands right now there isn't really much to do in this video game, Get rank in federal or imperial, Get money, Buy cool ship that you can only look at a bit from the outside **Which is a waste considering how big the ships are and it would be cool to look inside and walk around them, FD actually showed this in a video 2-3 years ago** and that's pretty much it, Yes you can explore but there's no real goal, You can't setup shop on a planet, Every planet is just the same dusty barren landscape.

It's a big game with not much in it.
 
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