Community Goals as content delivery and story progression tools

[Straker]

The fact we have CGs as an attempt to progress some sort of narrative is obviously not going away, and will most likely not be expanded upon. Unfortunately I feel that I have to accept this, which often means I won't participate because there is no reason to.

I agree with what the OP says with my emphasis on the fact that we need to be emotionally engaged by the narrative, events and information, in order to feel compelled to participate in the CGs. It isn't good enough to simply throw new toys in the sandbox for us to play with thinking that this in itself is some sort of 'narrative'. There is a rich game lore in Elite and this needs to be leveraged in order to make us feel something.

As Elite Dangerous is a real-time multiplayer game, its success relies heavily upon our own involvement in it. Once we can 'hook' into the progressing story we might start to feel like we want to see a CG complete because we are emotionally invested in it.

CGs are here to stay - please offer us more than gameplay mechanics and assets. Make us feel something!

 

[Jenner]

All I can say is, I agree with OP. It's a good critique of how story content is being delivered at the present.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Community Goals as content delivery and story progression tools are not bad at all. However they need to be engaging and interesting to fulfil that role. And I think this is not the case anymore.


I remember the Cerberus Plague CG series. It was a whole little storyline based around the CG's. We had to stop the plague from spreading and it took us a while to do that! It was fun, the story was engaging and it took some effort to get rid of the plague. Look at the one from couple of weeks ago - the one where we had to collect escape capsules and black boxes - it had a lot of people signed up and it ended after 48 hours! It was something different and it was fun! This weeks CG are a joke in comparison, even though the activities themselves are quite fun as well.

So what's happened? Well personally I think people are just bored with what the CG's have to offer. I think there are a few aspects that need to be looked at in order to attract people to participate in the CG's that are meant to be main story progression tool.

In no particular order, I think they are all equally important for the CG's to be an effective content delivery tool.


1) Unrealistic tier goals - whether it is intentional or a bug, when you see the CG struggle to reach Tier 1 in the first 48 hrs it really discourages from signing up for it. Why bother signing up for a lost case?

::EDIT:: For this point - I don't mean that we should have easy-mode CG's, where they are guaranteed to be completed. A good challenge is needed too! What I meant was that CG's that are designed to fail (if that's the case at all) or that are bugged in a way that makes them impossible to be completed will not attract players. That's the context, hope it's more clear now.


2) Boring content - how many times can you haul some random trade goods for hundreds of LY's? It gets boring soon. We've had couple of interesting CG's lately, I mean the escape pod collecting was lots of fun, and this week's collecting tissue samples is something new and can also be quite fun. Give us something new, something unusual and interesting to do during the CG's and people will participate.


3) Story progression speed - maybe if the effect of the completed CG was more significant, then more people would participate? You work your bottom off for a whole week and all you get is this lousy t-shirt a bigger missile pod, that is probably going to be nerfed in the next patch anyway... Make the result of the CG more BOOM and more BANG! Make it count, make us feel we are making a difference together, as the community!

4) CG rewards - one of the benefits of participating in a CG are the monetary rewards. However they are laughingly low in comparison to some other methods of making money. And especially when it comes to activities like fighting Thargoids, that can be a significant cost in ship repair bills. You want to attract players to participate? Make it worth our while!

5) Narrative presentation - it's poor. I mean it's all described in the CG text, but it's just not very engaging. I mean the whole Galnet needs a massive overhaul, but there is something about the wall of text in the CG description that is not very "catchy". Also, in the context of new anti-xeno weapons - pictures of the new gear are not even in game, we just get them through Twitter, Facebook etc. Really? C'mon, at least show us in game what we're fighting for! Make us WANT those new toys, make us WANT to shoot Thargoids or haul the explosives or acquire tissue samples or whatever else is needed. Players need to feel attached to the story.

6) Little details that don't make sense - so, there is this research group that wants to invent the new weapons to combat the most dangerous threat humanity has ever come across - an alien race. In order to do that, they need tissue samples delivered to their orbital starport. And yet they make the goods illegal in that starport... When the police scans you and find out you're hauling cargo that they owners of the station asked you for in a massive announcement, you get the fine that (to quote the classic) kills your credit balance? Really? It's little details like that, that make me go "meh". It makes the whole thing less realistic and, yes I am going to use that word, less immersive.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Pretty much agree. It needs to be more engaging. It just isnt at the moment, and the really good CG which I wanted to do was over before I had a chnce to paticipate in. Funny how it didnt involve shooting.

 

[Daffan]

Income and meaningful rewards is broken in this game when content can give you over 100mil an hour for nothing.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

I've had 4 CGs run out of about 10 that I have submitted. It takes quite a lot of effort to write a CG. Finding an appropriate system, stations, factions, etc. Working out a meaningful story, writing the text and quotes - some of which won't be used, e.g. for CG failure. FD spend even more effort per CG, even vetting ones that are rejected takes time. But any player submitted CG will need some text rewritten, plus all the text needs to be translated into several languages. Then there's the things that need setting up, e.g. CZ, blackmarkets. So FD invest a lot of effort each week into CGs.

None of my CGs have had huge turnouts, as they have all (the accepted ones anyway) been rare goods CGs, which is a fairly niche thing. The ones that seem to get the highest number of participants are the cookie-cutter bountyhunting CGs. Most of the 'Goid CGs have been pretty unbalanced, with common trade goods overwhelming the contribution of the alien samples, etc.

I think there is plenty of scope for improvement with the CG mechanics. But what we do have can still be fun with the right attitude.

 

[lokvette]

Agree with the OP, way back when I used to play Jumpgate, three factions who would run CG's maybe not all at once, and yeah the game was smaller as the gaxlay, but size in this case dosnt matter as most CG are based around a system or in a system, but unlike Jumpgates you felt you were working for one of the factions it had depth a back story and a result in terms of somthing ussefull or it added to a story line. It was a race to see which faction got thiers done first and it was a matter of pride.

One of my gripes with ED as a whole and I know its how it is, is the fact you cant sign up for one of the big three let alone any off the thousands of minor factions, sure I can stick an Imp banner on my forum posts (hey wheres that gone) but it means sweet annie in terms of how Im treated and what my actions in game mean to anyone or anything.

OH and another one grip with CG's bar the threads from Kietrax I wouldnt know there was a new CG, or at least what they were about or even worth looking into, and yeah I know they are in game, but the point is why as these are ment to be a "communtiy goal" and even more so as some off them are ment to be tied to the 2.4 Story are they not splatted over the forums by a CM stickied with super clue and given a bit of fanfare, roll up roll up fast rides hold tight oi oi ere we go...

(I belive somthing was stuck on , somthing I have never used nor wish to, not sure how many old farts like me play ED and have no wish to find out the ins and outs of the game on it.)

They have become nothing but a grind for most people, and yeah if you dont like CG dont do them,,yadda yadda but isnt the point of them to be done by the community not shunned, laughed at and stuck in the corner to be forgton about.

 

[Jmanis]

I've had 4 CGs run out of about 10 that I have submitted. It takes quite a lot of effort to write a CG. Finding an appropriate system, stations, factions, etc. Working out a meaningful story, writing the text and quotes - some of which won't be used, e.g. for CG failure. FD spend even more effort per CG, even vetting ones that are rejected takes time. But any player submitted CG will need some text rewritten, plus all the text needs to be translated into several languages. Then there's the things that need setting up, e.g. CZ, blackmarkets. So FD invest a lot of effort each week into CGs.

None of my CGs have had huge turnouts, as they have all (the accepted ones anyway) been rare goods CGs, which is a fairly niche thing. The ones that seem to get the highest number of participants are the cookie-cutter bountyhunting CGs. Most of the 'Goid CGs have been pretty unbalanced, with common trade goods overwhelming the contribution of the alien samples, etc.

I think there is plenty of scope for improvement with the CG mechanics. But what we do have can still be fun with the right attitude.

Off-topic, and not having a go at you; but I'm a bit bewildered by the fact you've had 4 accepted. I've had 1 accepted (of two submissions), a simple trade CG, and it took six months for FD to even respond to that submission with approval, and over a year to put it in the game (And FD forgetting to run it on the date they said they would). It took so long I abandoned the ones I had follow-ups planned for. It's just a bit galling to hear that, but again, no rub on you

For what it's worth, the second involved the collection of Unknown Artefacts, which was "too close to the story" at the time (Barnacles hadn't even been discovered then). This CG was meant to escalate into some border aggressions before concluding in a conflict CG that ultimately decides if my group's player faction would stay in the game or be dissolved.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

The two last week were mine, but I suppose they were essentially one CG in two locations. So three, not four (the others being smuggling CGs in Epsilon Indi and Herthe). I also had one other accepted, even went in Galnet, but didn't actually happen. This was for salvage on Mitterand Hollow. There was never any explanation why that one didn't happen.

 

[Arkadi]

I think CG's are good to focus community on one or two locations in space, to bring people together, to do something with a community effort, to wing up with other commanders and to have adversaries. Hello PvP people!

That's about the thing what those CG's mean to me.

Imo they are not really a strong tool to deliver a broad story arc. They are a simple straight forward mechanic for some local stuff, like bounty-hunting, unlocking another rare-good or what ever - but for larger scale, I really had wished for something ... "bigger" then just another series of CG's...

But I won't complain to much. I think there is new stuff enough to do... I don't have to do those CG's - and I don't do them a lot anymore. They just don't feel necessary and the mechanics support that. They are not very necessary. For me they seem like a sport for those who are into it.. Some like soccer, some like tennis, some like CG's. Well. Me not so much.

 

[Bajau]

At the risk of mentioning something that may have been brought up already (I did look but there are a LOT of threads/comments/opinions on this issue...), could it be considered to 'rerun' some of the really good CGs (obviously with some minor tweaks) for the benefit of the newer CMDR's?

Benefits:

• Engages the newer players
• Encourages the experienced players to re-engage and mentor
• Repeats something that DID work
• Lots of other things that I can't think of but someone will point them out

Negatives:

• Lots of other things that I can't think of but someone will point them out

 

[Darshyne]

They don't have the ressources to do anything else than CG.

 

[rootsrat]

The only real issue I can see here is that you couldn't have parts of CGs that only last for a day. People would get too annoyed that they couldn't take part, because things move on too quickly (ironic really isn't it). But I certainly agree with the principle.

Yes, it's true that it would be fast paced. On the other hand, it's hard to convey a sense of urgency with stuff that spans weeks.

True that. Also, it can be balanced - it can be less 2-day stages. Or just 2 3-day stages + a Finale. Good idea nevertheless! I'd love to see that implemented.

Colonia, I think, actually provides a reasonable model for CGs done well - the evidence suggests a considerably higher fraction of Colonia residents take part in Colonia CGs than main bubble residents take part in main bubble CGs.

1) CGs are relatively rare: there's at most one a month, often less. There's no "CG fatigue" - instead, people mostly welcome the opportunity to team up and do something a bit different.
2) CGs all have some sort of concrete impact for completion that is, on the scale of the region, massively higher than any Sol bubble CG has given. For the last four:
- mining: significant outfitting improvements to several stations and systems
- bounty hunting: new orbital stations and systems colonised
- trade: new secondary outposts in major systems, noticeable population increase
- warzone: major potential threat to regional stability defeated. (Or could have been created, if people had chosen the other side...)
Usually the effects are reasonably well-signposted in advance, too, though the bounty hunting and trade ones were less so - that's more a guess based on what happened shortly after completion.

Good comment. Yes, making CG's more rare and making them have more impact and more meaning to the game world would also be a welcome change.

For some reason, the CGs that I like were the one for building Obsidian Orbital and the Hutton mug run. For me they seemed to serve a purpose. 1 for building a station in game and the other was a huge drag but we got a rare out of it and the community really seemed to be into it.
I also remember the CG for the Black Sun(?) those guys who were accused of murdering the emperor. Although in that chain of CGs, FDev did some god nerfing of the tiers cause some commanders were caught cheating.
These Thargoid CGs, to me, are a bit “meh...”. What’s the point? They only stay in their sector of space. Don’t seem to pose a threat to anyone except Agies, who seem to be expanding into their space. No involving story. No urgency.
I went to Electra, not to fight the Thargoids but just to check out if I could spot the new beastie. Went into a couple of NHSS, scanned a couple of scout ships and none of them attacked me. So why should I fight them?

I missed Obsidian one, but I did participate in the Hutton Mug one. Definitely agree that if the back story is interesting and engaging, I'm more willing to take part. That's why I said about the story presentation in CG's. The Thargoid story is just not appealing enough to make me want to do those CG's.



Lots of good and constructive comments in this thread, which is a nice thing to have, as opposed to just moaning and whining Thanks to all that contributed, keep the ideas coming - you never know who's reading!

 

[Bajau]

Lots of good and constructive comments in this thread, which is a nice thing to have, as opposed to just moaning and whining Thanks to all that contributed, keep the ideas coming - you never know who's reading!

+1 [up][up][up]

 

[Leo Sagan]

* redacted *

 

[Sirius Agent]

Agreed with OP, who wrote exactly what's in my mind

By the way money rewards are just silly, because money have no matter in this game for people who are playing from begining. There is nothing to buy for credits anymore... Maybe as a reward besides credits FD may give some ship kit from time to time? Or something else, like private hangar on planet surface for storing materials... Just "use your imagination" FDevs, because there are better ways to make more credits in less boring way than CG.

 

[Kyokushin]

I agree with OP.

I also think a things what OP mentioned are not a root cause of boredom.

There are two root issues on architecture level in that game:
1. Three game modes. It cannot work, it cant be balanced, it is the worst implementation of possible. I cant even imagine how someone could invent it. I do not want to discuss now how it should be done, there is a lot of good suggestion in Hotel California
2. Relogging exploits. Lowest efforth actions are most profitable and optimal ones. Its a shoot in own foot.

Everything else like content delivery method, balance may be tweaked, but a tweaking will not be possible unti these two root causes will be elimintaded. Now everything what FDev will do will be a patching of broken knee. Root cause of boredom and lack of logic in design will still be there.

Even current Content delivery method and grind based gameplay could work if point 1 and 2 would be fixed.

These two issues are a curverd mirror of real western world. Values like 'play as you want', equality, political correctness, everyone need to win, are pushed to the limit of absurd. Thats why a architecture decisions from point 1 and 2 was made as they made.

It will not change, because society is as is, and FDev will not do make brave move, because status quo is not require any effort, and as we know, all last updates are made by 'lowest effort' policy.

What then we should do? How to live?
Simple. I will buy new sportscar for rubbing a tears, i am flying drones (because i like to fly), and when i will go to retirement in 2048 then maybe Star Citizen will exit beta (or at least alpha) stage and then even if i will be old and smelly, with parkinson and skleroris, and i will be unable to high pvp, then i will fly in right way, without game modes, without all of irrational madness what a core design of Elite represents.

 

[AEterna426]

In my opinion Frontier Developments has been less and less interested in Elite Dangerous for last months. I fear that spark of excitement we could see in their eyes just not so long ago is somehow dying from day to day now. I would say even the last London Expo promises (regarding ED) were a bit... forced. No wonder such a lack of interesting results in pretty lousy ideas like the CG you speak of. Bearing that in mind I'm afraid those Expo promises for the next year will not be fulfilled as we could expect.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree with OP.

I also think a things what OP mentioned are not a root cause of boredom.

There are two root issues on architecture level in that game:
1. Three game modes. It cannot work, it cant be balanced, it is the worst implementation of possible. I cant even imagine how someone could invent it. I do not want to discuss now how it should be done, there is a lot of good suggestion in Hotel California

I fail to see what the three modes have to do with the story elements and community goals.

2. Relogging exploits. Lowest efforth actions are most profitable and optimal ones. Its a shoot in own foot.

I don't like relogging exploit, the reason why I don't do it. It will ruin my game. Also the exploit as more difficult to achieve now.

Everything else like content delivery method, balance may be tweaked, but a tweaking will not be possible unti these two root causes will be elimintaded. Now everything what FDev will do will be a patching of broken knee. Root cause of boredom and lack of logic in design will still be there.

I can't see the issue.

Even current Content delivery method and grind based gameplay could work if point 1 and 2 would be fixed.

What grind based gameplay? That is a choice.

These two issues are a curverd mirror of real western world. Values like 'play as you want', equality, political correctness, everyone need to win, are pushed to the limit of absurd. Thats why a architecture decisions from point 1 and 2 was made as they made.

Point 1 is not an issue. Point 2 is a minor one.

It will not change, because society is as is, and FDev will not do make brave move, because status quo is not require any effort, and as we know, all last updates are made by 'lowest effort' policy.

I doubt that this is true at all.

What then we should do? How to live?
Simple. I will buy new sportscar for rubbing a tears, i am flying drones (because i like to fly), and when i will go to retirement in 2048 then maybe Star Citizen will exit beta (or at least alpha) stage and then even if i will be old and smelly, with parkinson and skleroris, and i will be unable to high pvp, then i will fly in right way, without game modes, without all of irrational madness what a core design of Elite represents.

Okkkaaayyyy. You play SC when it comes out. It is a game that does not interest me in the slightest. I was invested in it at one stage but got my refund as I find some of the design decisions to be questionable at best. Elite Dangerous is a very different type of game then Star Citizen and I certainly don't want them to be the same.

I am not entirely sure what your post has to do with the original post at all to be honest. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

 

[Kyokushin]

I am not entirely sure what your post has to do with the original post at all

Thats the point.
FDev also dont see a connection, or don't care of it.

Community is divided for these who see it as obvious, and for these who do not see a connection between it. Fdev is sharing a point of view of that second, and game situation and architecture decisions are result of it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Thats the point.
FDev also dont see a connection, or don't care of it.

Community is divided for these who see it as obvious, and for these who do not see a connection between it. Fdev is sharing a point of view of that second, and game situation and architecture decisions are result of it.

Because there is no connection.