ED and Windows MR (Samsung Odyssey @ 1440x1600)

I've seen other reviewers state that despite the increased resolution the image is not better than the Rift. Some speculated it was because of the increased FOV.

Also, I don't understand why you would need more supersampling with a higher res display. I would expect the opposite. The higher res the display, the less noticeable jaggies are and the less supersampling or AA you would need.


And if there is no noticeable SDE, just use AA and no SS.
 
I've seen other reviewers state that despite the increased resolution the image is not better than the Rift. Some speculated it was because of the increased FOV.

Also, I don't understand why you would need more supersampling with a higher res display. I would expect the opposite. The higher res the display, the less noticeable jaggies are and the less supersampling or AA you would need.


And if there is no noticeable SDE, just use AA and no SS.

For me, it just makes the text that much sharper to be honest. Note that in my testing for the Samsung, the only reason I was even trying to super-sample was to fix the text. Without any super sampling the text on the HUD was terrible --incredibly blocky and artifacted. It was strange though because everything else was actually in pretty good fidelity.

If I could get away with better text without supersample, then I would not necessarily do it. but in general though, for VR, if you can, then it's a good idea to do it to get the best possible picture on your HMD
 
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For me, it just makes the text that much sharper to be honest. Note that in my testing for the Samsung, the only reason I was even trying to super-sample was to fix the text. Without any super sampling the text on the HUD was terrible --incredibly blocky and artifacted. It was strange though because everything else was actually in pretty good fidelity.

If I could get away with better text without supersample, then I would not necessarily do it. but in general though, for VR, if you can, then it's a good idea to do it to get the best possible picture on your HMD

But isn't the readability of text the best test of clarity? There's nothing magical about text. They're small graphical units and we know exactly what they should look like.


It could be that the better colors are making you feel like everything is clearer.


I was really looking forward to the Samsung Odesessy having better clarity but so far reviewers have said it's worse than the Rift.
 
Especially if they spend all their available resources working on useless crap like Holo-Me!

Dude, don't sweat the small stuff.

The Fact Is, the Holo-Me feature has been done and in game for months now and is not what FDev is currently working on, so no need to make up fairy tales to rage against - it will only give you high blood pressure.

And while I get that you wish everyone in game looked like a black suited clone, No successful open world multi-player game today exists without character customization, and I'm not the only one who thinks it's cool (thanks FDev!)
 
Dude, don't sweat the small stuff.

The Fact Is, the Holo-Me feature has been done and in game for months now and is not what FDev is currently working on, so no need to make up fairy tales to rage against - it will only give you high blood pressure.

And while I get that you wish everyone in game looked like a black suited clone, No successful open world multi-player game today exists without character customization, and I'm not the only one who thinks it's cool (thanks FDev!)

Me too! I love playing dress-up with my avatar!! :)
 
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In order to complete the two reviews I've posted in this thread, I spent some more "quality time" with my Samsung and Elite this weekend. In fact, I ran the Samsung when I played on Sat and then switched back to the Rift when I played on Sunday. Here are my findings which reflect day-to-day use:

The "Windows Mixed Reality for Steam VR" ("MR4VR") is just not ready for prime time. ...and its not supposed to be. The flickering and juddering in the station menus (when mouse is active) is such a long-term annoyance that I've ultimately shelved the Samsung until it reaches maturity. On the upside, I think it will get addressed pretty quick, but I've pretty much given up using the Samsung until I see another update for "MR4VR". Its important to note that the Samsung seems to work great in native WinMR applications but I just don't use them. For me, Elite is the end-all, be-all for VR and if a headset comes in 2nd place, I see no reason to have it hooked up to my system.

Likewise, with "MR4VR", the frame rate is not as buttery smooth as with the Rift. It just seems like the MR4VR helper is just not working as efficiently as it should be. My native MR apps run fine, but the Elite seems to be working it harder than it should.

The image is brighter and crisper with the Samsung. However, the edge focus in the Rift is better. The sweet spot in the Rift is larger (for me anyway) than the Samsung.

The traditional God Rays (as issued from bright text/graphics) are minimal but the Samsung seems to trade these for similar reflections which emanate from the edges of the lenses. The biggest source of these is the bright panels on the Elite Avatars seat located near the Throttle and Joystick. The Samsung lenses seem to bring these up into the lenses if they even partially visible at the edges of the viewable area. (A quick solution would be for Elite to allow us to simply turn these illuminated seat panels off).

After playing on Sat, and switching back to the Rift on Sunday, it was just a much more relaxing experience. I'ld like to embrace the brighter sharper image of the Samsung, but the Rift experience is just so much more seamless. I'll trade the higher resolution of the Samsung for the buttery smooth seamless experience of the Rift.

I expect the MFR4VR app will be getting some much needed updates in the very near future. I'm going to be happy to revisit the Samsung with each update. I am pretty sure that most of the issues with the Samsung are related to the immaturity of the MR4VR helper app and that these will be quickly addressed.

In fact, if the issues with the MR4VR app is not addressed relatively quickly, the Pimax8K is well positioned to completely leapfrog the Windows MR headsets when it is released in January. I'll keep testing my Samsung HMD until my Pimax8K arrives and if it doesn't at least temporarily replace my Rift then there won't be much point working with it any longer...

Right now, based on the performance of the MR4VR app, I wouldn't be buying any Windows MR HMD... It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out!
 
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Me too! I love playing dress-up with my avatar!! :)

While I wouldn't say I "love playing dress-up", I did buy the metallic blue flight suit last week. It looks great, in-game!

In order to complete the two reviews I've posted in this thread, I spent some more "quality time" with my Samsung and Elite this weekend.

In fact, if the issues with the MR4VR app is not addressed relatively quickly, the Pimax8K is well positioned to completely leapfrog the Windows MR headsets when it is released in January.

Right now, based on the performance of the MR4VR app, I wouldn't be buying any Windows MR HMD... It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out!
Thanks for the info! Before I signed up for a Pixmax 8K, I was strongly considering the Samsung unit. It's nice to see that all indications are that I made the right choice, to wait for a better VR experience, even if it is more expensive (than the Samsung).
 
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In order to complete the two reviews I've posted in this thread, I spent some more "quality time" with my Samsung and Elite this weekend. In fact, I ran the Samsung when I played on Sat and then switched back to the Rift when I played on Sunday. Here are my findings which reflect day-to-day use:

The "Windows Mixed Reality for Steam VR" ("MR4VR") is just not ready for prime time. ...and its not supposed to be. The flickering and juddering in the station menus (when mouse is active) is such a long-term annoyance that I've ultimately shelved the Samsung until it reaches maturity. On the upside, I think it will get addressed pretty quick, but I've pretty much given up using the Samsung until I see another update for "MR4VR". Its important to note that the Samsung seems to work great in native WinMR applications but I just don't use them. For me, Elite is the end-all, be-all for VR and if a headset comes in 2nd place, I see no reason to have it hooked up to my system.

Likewise, with "MR4VR", the frame rate is not as buttery smooth as with the Rift. It just seems like the MR4VR helper is just not working as efficiently as it should be. My native MR apps run fine, but the Elite seems to be working it harder than it should.

The image is brighter and crisper with the Samsung. However, the edge focus in the Rift is better. The sweet spot in the Rift is larger (for me anyway) than the Samsung.

The traditional God Rays (as issued from bright text/graphics) are minimal but the Samsung seems to trade these for similar reflections which emanate from the edges of the lenses. The biggest source of these is the bright panels on the Elite Avatars seat located near the Throttle and Joystick. The Samsung lenses seem to bring these up into the lenses if they even partially visible at the edges of the viewable area. (A quick solution would be for Elite to allow us to simply turn these illuminated seat panels off).

After playing on Sat, and switching back to the Rift on Sunday, it was just a much more relaxing experience. I'ld like to embrace the brighter sharper image of the Samsung, but the Rift experience is just so much more seamless. I'll trade the higher resolution of the Samsung for the buttery smooth seamless experience of the Rift.

I expect the MFR4VR app will be getting some much needed updates in the very near future. I'm going to be happy to revisit the Samsung with each update. I am pretty sure that most of the issues with the Samsung are related to the immaturity of the MR4VR helper app and that these will be quickly addressed.

In fact, if the issues with the MR4VR app is not addressed relatively quickly, the Pimax8K is well positioned to completely leapfrog the Windows MR headsets when it is released in January. I'll keep testing my Samsung HMD until my Pimax8K arrives and if it doesn't at least temporarily replace my Rift then there won't be much point working with it any longer...

Right now, based on the performance of the MR4VR app, I wouldn't be buying any Windows MR HMD... It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out!

Very in-depth and helpful, thanks. Have you tried any other SteamVR games with the unit? I know ED is what we're all here for, but I'm left wondering if the lack of optimization is on Elite's end or MR4VR.
 
While I wouldn't say I "love playing dress-up", I did buy the metallic blue flight suit last week. It looks great, in-game!


Thanks for the info! Before I signed up for a Pixmax 8K, I was strongly considering the Samsung unit. It's nice to see that all indications are that I made the right choice, to wait for a better VR experience, even if it is more expensive (than the Samsung).

I would still strongly consider the Samsung unit... It just might be a week or so (if we are lucky) till they get the bugs sorted out with the "MR4VR" software. That's not a Samsung issue, its a Microsoft issue and I expect they are currently pretty motivated to get it resolved quickly...
 
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Very in-depth and helpful, thanks. Have you tried any other SteamVR games with the unit? I know ED is what we're all here for, but I'm left wondering if the lack of optimization is on Elite's end or MR4VR.

Nope. Although I have not run any other SteamVR apps with the Samsung, I have played around in both the SteamVR environment and also in the Native "WindowsMR" environment. Both of those look great but neither is particularly taxing on the system (I expect).

Additionally, the SteamVR environment has a major shortcoming in that it doesn't provide any way for the user to rotate their view. You HAVE to rotate your body or head to change your view - and there is no way to recenter it. There is no way to rotate your view by using the controllers, mouse, keyboard, etc. ...and that's just plain STUPID!
 
Additionally, the SteamVR environment has a major shortcoming in that it doesn't provide any way for the user to rotate their view. You HAVE to rotate your body or head to change your view - and there is no way to recenter it. There is no way to rotate your view by using the controllers, mouse, keyboard, etc. ...and that's just plain STUPID!

Ouch, that is stupid! What a time to be alive, when "nextgen" hardware is released with beta software. Bummer.
 
That type of a major feature should have been considered/identified as a core function of the Environment during the design phase and not required supplemental user feedback. Yup, its STUPID.

(The Windows MR Cliff House accommodates this easily)
 
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In order to complete the two reviews I've posted in this thread, I spent some more "quality time" with my Samsung and Elite this weekend. In fact, I ran the Samsung when I played on Sat and then switched back to the Rift when I played on Sunday. Here are my findings which reflect day-to-day use:

The "Windows Mixed Reality for Steam VR" ("MR4VR") is just not ready for prime time. ...and its not supposed to be. The flickering and juddering in the station menus (when mouse is active) is such a long-term annoyance that I've ultimately shelved the Samsung until it reaches maturity. On the upside, I think it will get addressed pretty quick, but I've pretty much given up using the Samsung until I see another update for "MR4VR". Its important to note that the Samsung seems to work great in native WinMR applications but I just don't use them. For me, Elite is the end-all, be-all for VR and if a headset comes in 2nd place, I see no reason to have it hooked up to my system.

Likewise, with "MR4VR", the frame rate is not as buttery smooth as with the Rift. It just seems like the MR4VR helper is just not working as efficiently as it should be. My native MR apps run fine, but the Elite seems to be working it harder than it should.

The image is brighter and crisper with the Samsung. However, the edge focus in the Rift is better. The sweet spot in the Rift is larger (for me anyway) than the Samsung.

The traditional God Rays (as issued from bright text/graphics) are minimal but the Samsung seems to trade these for similar reflections which emanate from the edges of the lenses. The biggest source of these is the bright panels on the Elite Avatars seat located near the Throttle and Joystick. The Samsung lenses seem to bring these up into the lenses if they even partially visible at the edges of the viewable area. (A quick solution would be for Elite to allow us to simply turn these illuminated seat panels off).

After playing on Sat, and switching back to the Rift on Sunday, it was just a much more relaxing experience. I'ld like to embrace the brighter sharper image of the Samsung, but the Rift experience is just so much more seamless. I'll trade the higher resolution of the Samsung for the buttery smooth seamless experience of the Rift.

I expect the MFR4VR app will be getting some much needed updates in the very near future. I'm going to be happy to revisit the Samsung with each update. I am pretty sure that most of the issues with the Samsung are related to the immaturity of the MR4VR helper app and that these will be quickly addressed.

In fact, if the issues with the MR4VR app is not addressed relatively quickly, the Pimax8K is well positioned to completely leapfrog the Windows MR headsets when it is released in January. I'll keep testing my Samsung HMD until my Pimax8K arrives and if it doesn't at least temporarily replace my Rift then there won't be much point working with it any longer...

Right now, based on the performance of the MR4VR app, I wouldn't be buying any Windows MR HMD... It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out!

Did you post this review in the Oculus forums?
 
Sounds like the Samsung shares a lot of lens
qualities as the HTC vive.

Very small central sweetspot compared to cv1, and instead of godrays, great big rings of light in the lenses.

No orientation function in steamvr is a known problem.

it's no substitute but if you find yourself needing to tweak the room calibration.
I had good success using this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4yoihe/chaperonetweak_an_invr_chaperone_editor/

it allowed me to drop the virtual floor two inches and re-orient default facing direction to better accommodate my room shape.
 
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Sounds like the Samsung shares a lot of lens
qualities as the HTC vive.

Very small central sweetspot compared to cv1, and instead of godrays, great big rings of light in the lenses.

No orientation function in steamvr is a known problem.

it's no substitute but if you find yourself needing to tweak the room calibration.
I had good success using this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4yoihe/chaperonetweak_an_invr_chaperone_editor/

it allowed me to drop the virtual floor two inches and re-orient default facing direction to better accommodate my room shape.

Yeah - other user's are pretty amazed at how STUPID it was to not include the ability to adjust or center your view. Even if the designers weren't smart enough to realize this was a pretty critical function, didn't they bother to compare/consider the functionality of their competition? Pretty bad from any development perspective...

ED is really the ONLY thing I play in VR. Given the Frame Rate, Juddering, and Flickering issues in the "MR4VR" environment when running ED, I simply don't see any point in using/testing the Samsung any further until we get the next MR4VR update. Hopefully by then, they will have implemented an integrated method to adjust/center the view...
 
Yeah - other user's are pretty amazed at how STUPID it was to not include the ability to adjust or center your view. Even if the designers weren't smart enough to realize this was a pretty critical function, didn't they bother to compare/consider the functionality of their competition? Pretty bad from any development perspective...

ED is really the ONLY thing I play in VR. Given the Frame Rate, Juddering, and Flickering issues in the "MR4VR" environment when running ED, I simply don't see any point in using/testing the Samsung any further until we get the next MR4VR update. Hopefully by then, they will have implemented an integrated method to adjust/center the view...

Well, they won't need to implement anything to center view, for ED and many other games, paricularily sim type games has a reset view button or menu option.
Other than that Valve really wants to hype the whole "room" thing with SteamVR.
And since lighthouses are static and they intend to be a static setup it should work.
Again a lot of games, Elite included has a reset position button (ED has f12 by default).
 
Well, they won't need to implement anything to center view, for ED and many other games, paricularily sim type games has a reset view button or menu option.
Other than that Valve really wants to hype the whole "room" thing with SteamVR.
And since lighthouses are static and they intend to be a static setup it should work.
Again a lot of games, Elite included has a reset position button (ED has f12 by default).

Yup ED works fine with F12 (or Voice Attack). But they thoughtlessly didn't implement any such feature in the SteamVR Launch environment. Every time I want to launch ED using the Samsung Odyssey and "MR4VR", I am forced to turn face to the launcher wall at about my 3 O'clock position to select the game. Why wouldn't you want the launcher wall to be able to be oriented right in front of you?

...and you don't need/use lighthouses at all if you are using an HMD with "inside-out" tracking (like the Samsung Odyssey or the upcoming Pimax8K).
 
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I finally spent some "quality time" (running missions) with the Samsung Odyssey/Windows MR for SteamVR/SteamVR/ED last night. I had spent some time prior experimenting with various image setting to try and optimize the display quality but did not have a chance to actually run any missions or do any fighting. (BTW - Setting "HMD Quality" to 1.5X still seems to be the only modification required for the best image). Here is what I've also observed.

First the easy part. Like most guys, I like a little head. Unfortunately, I have a big head. A REALLY big head. ...and its horribly misshapen. My head is kind of oblong like an American football. Think "Stewie" on Family guy but rotated 90 degrees. Otherwise, if you could find a hat which fits the creature from "Aliens", I could probably wear it quite comfortably... Seriously, I wear a size 7-3/4 hat if its flexible and a size 8 in a motorsports helmet. So If I tell you the Samsung HMD doesn't fit my head as well as the Rift, it probably won't matter much to folks with a "normal" noggin. That being said, I have to wear the Samsung with the headband fully extended and even then its a little snug on me. This also requires me to have the earphones fully extended downward. I'm hoping as the cushions on the unit break in a bit this all settles in pretty comfortably. In any case, this probably won't matter to 99% of folks.

The OLED image on the Samsung is brighter and much more colorful and crisp then the Rift. So much so that you will notice and shortcomings in the rendering much more quickly. As stated earlier, the "jaggies" are pretty apparent right off the bat. Increasing the HMD Quality to 1.5X seems to solve most (but not all) of this. Increasing it further, or increasing the supersampling does not seem to add any value (but will slow down the rendering substantially). The star field is so much sharper and colorful than with the Rift. You will notice the color differences in the stars right away.

The SDE (Screen Door Effect) is all but gone and you really have to look for it in the right image lighting. You can notice it if you look for it in very neutral, even colored, flat textures or backgrounds. Much better than the Rift though and if you are not looking for it you likely won't notice it.

Resolution is significantly higher and your will find that on screen cockpit text is much easier to read. Ships also resolve better at higher distances.

Tracking is spot on. Nothing more needs to be said here.

God Rays from bright spots in the image are also reduce greatly vs the Rift. However, there is something else going on. There appear to be other "reflections" primarily at the outer edges of the lenses which do not appear to be related to anything on screen. I did detect some of this as ambient light coming in from the back through gaps in the sides of the HMD (oblong head, remember?) but this doesn't explain all of it. I don't think its any light leakage from within the HMD as the OLED panels should be self illuminating. However, these "reflections" don't seem to be related to the image being displayed or the angle of my head, etc. I need to continue testing tonight in a fully darkened room to see if I can nail it down further. These "reflections" don't appear to be "God Rays" but might be similarly distracting for some people.

Graphics performance and quality during flight and engagement did not suffer. I could see opponent ships clearer and make out their details from further away. No loss of video performance was noticed during a brief one-on-one encounter. However, I did not get a chance to fly into a CZ or other highly populated fight zone.

However, frame rates with the Samsung HMD are not as high and buttery smooth as with the Rift. I'm not sure if this difference is due to the relative immaturity of the "Windows MR for SteamVR" component, hard-coded optimizations for lower resolution HMD's in ED, or just a general increase in video processing requirements. My gut feeling is that this will likely become a non-issue as the various software components mature for use with a greater variety of HMD resolutions and requirements. I don't think the relatively small difference in frame rates or smoothness is related to any shortcoming or inability of the underlying hardware. (I'm running a very fast i7, on an X99 MB, with 64GB of RAM, off a Samsung Pro 960 SSD, and a GTX-1080ti). My system is running the native Windows MR stuff, at the higher Samsung resolutions, without breaking a sweat and should be able to handle pretty much anything thrown at it as long as all the software components are working efficiently.

The biggest issue right now with the Samsung is 3rd party software related (I think). There appears to be some sort of a rendering issue which is particularly noticeable when working on-screen menus in ED. I think it has something to do with the mouse being present and active. It is very noticeable and is mainly an issue when your running the mission boards in the station. The image will blink and shift to the point that I've even seen the "Windows MR for SteamVR" environment flicker through in the process. Because of that, I'm thinking it has something to do with that specific software component which is still in Beta/Preview release). I'm going to post this info over on the "Windows MR for SteamVR" developer forums to make sure the developers know about it. It is very noticeable and distracting but it really only appears to be an issue if you are operating in an image which supports Mouse interaction (Station Menus, Galmap, Sysmap). ED has always been pretty funky in the way in which it works withe the mouse in VR, I expect it may just be exacerbating this shortcoming. Of course, the good news is that the "Windows MR for SteamVR" is still in Beta/Preview release so those developers are probably pretty motivated to address anything that needs fixing.

Similarly, I'ld like to see FDEV put down their Holo-Me crayons for a bit and spend some more time examining their VR HMD support code. It used to be that "all" the HMD's out there ran a single common resolution (1280x1024). This is no longer the case. If the VR/HMD code in ED was built to optimize for this old resolution, it really needs to be revisited. Pushing my "HMD Quality" to 1.5X really helped the image quality but I don't think this should be necessary. Most HMDs now run 1440x1440, the Samsung runs 1440x1600, and we also have the Pimax8K coming which upscales from 2Kx2K native images. (Pimax also has a "native" 8K unit coming in April which does 4K per eye without any upscaling). In any case, now would be a very good time for FDEV to sit down and ensure the code base is ready for these enhanced resolutions and not just optimized for a 2 year old standard.

Pros:
Higher Resolution
Brighter Colors
Better Contrast
Perfect Tracking
No external Tracking equipment required
SDE greatly reduced
Reduction of "God Rays" effect
Can wear glasses

Cons:
Image "Disruption" in specific environments (Short-term "Windows MR for SteamVR" maturity issue I think/Hope)
Some sort of Image/Lens reflection artifacts (Still Researching)
Higher Demands on Video Subsystem
Less comfortable if you have a mutant head


Hi,

I too have the odyssey and here are my thoughts in no particular order:

The god rays you are referring to when it appears it is not being caused by anything on screen can be tested as follows: Set your holo me to have an all white suit and then set it to all black.

I suspect the headset is rendering outside the vision of the lens at the outer portions of the screen causing the reflections to be seen. The good news is this is a software solution.

For best image quality setting SMAA to 1.5 and HMD to 1.5 gives beautiful text. If both are set to 1.0 then it wont look as good. However it brings my 1080TI to a crawl.

Station menu seems to make tracking super choppy. Lowering the visual settings improves the stuttering.
 
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