Research on Griefing - a few excerpts
- Thread starter TheSynopticVision
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Look at what happened with the sophists because of intellectual apathy at the time...
Just sayin'...
Come on you know exactly what he is academically trying to say. "PvP players are stupid and mentally damaged."
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This is pretty self evident, though, no? That most players, who don't have the drive to achieve mastery of the game mechanics, are going to be at the mercy of the minority of players who do?
I've known that, and count myself to be in the former group.
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Which is one of the six articles, which leads to that, yes, but some others do not. So even then Ashens statement is barely a direct conclusion, but his point of view, which i dared to not agree upon.
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And there i dare to say, he pointed at the abstracts. Which don't lead to that conclusion at all. I just to be sure, re-read all of them and still found nothing pointing at that.
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So in the end, it boils down to this:
- Yes, one of the six refered articles can be interpreted of supporting Ashens point of view.
- Monkey decides that by me not agreeing to Ashen i apparently have not read and understood the abstracts in those articles.
- When i question that, you agree that my reading comprehension is insufficient.
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- Luckily for you, you answere to my queries, so i at least see where things went wrong here. You didn't take Monkeys statement as literal as i did, interpreted things again a bit different than i did and just worded it in a way which sounded insulting to me. My reaction might've been harsh, but i hope i managed to keep my wording under control and didn't offend you.
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It still doesn't change my point of view on the matter, but at least i now see where we interpreted things differently, so thank you for that.
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Your inner rage is coming through loud and clear. Perhaps a bit of therapy could help with that.
The research breaks down when a player with a grudge uses it on a game that literally hands us a fantastic variety of weapons and insists that we destroy things (other players) with them to blanket an entire group of people with a one size fits all judgment of a negative value.
I've found that it is helpful to be able to separate real life from the game world in this regard.
His documents are not behind a pay wall at least.
I can't answer that, but I can tell you what I personally got out of this thread, and particularly out of reading those excerpts. I see them as evidence that it really isn't as black and white as people who share Sylow's thoughts might believe, and it reinforced what I already knew after being a top 500 in Europe guildmaster in WoW for three years... Griefers, low skill caps and cowardice RARELY go hand in hand. If I had posted this thread, it would have been to show certain types (probably those Goose refers to as 'PvEers' in a derogatory way, the demographic, that I as a PvEer try to distance myself from), that griefer motivation is not as simple as they believe, and in fact, such players can be a driving force behind theorycrafting and teaching the 'casuals' better practices. Because let's face it, if there weren't griefers, there'd be no reason for anyone to improve. Anyone that doesn't WANT to improve in that way should probably not play an MMO where PvP is literally 'Open' season.
Hehe reminds me of something I asked the missus the other day..
We were watching one of these BBC documentaries, and were talking about climate change. A professor said something like, "we have to take global climate change very seriously, it's a threat to everyone and everything on earth, human beings have to take responsibility..." Which in itself is perfectly reasonable, he then ruins the whole statement with "..we haven't seen this kind of mean temperatures for 1000 years".
I turned around to the mrs and said... 1000 years ago? What caused that 1000 years ago? Too many Vikings farting atop mont blanc?
(sorry off topic...) ahem, carry on carry on.
I was reading a bit about Victim Mentality, since it's Friday, and I'm babysitting a process which really doesn't need to, and I found this:
The first bit isn't too distant from the mentality: "I am shooting CMDRs because there's not content for me". Engaging in crime as a reaction to an immoral world.
Now look at the second part, quite similar to:
"Them PvE moderators are singling out PvPers on these here forums"
You know what? I think I'm rather good at this.
Obligatory:
"Hmm", I thought. And I made the same sound at the exact same time. "Hmmm". Then I added a word: "Interesting". So that all sounded very knowledgeable on my part.
The first bit isn't too distant from the mentality: "I am shooting CMDRs because there's not content for me". Engaging in crime as a reaction to an immoral world.
Now look at the second part, quite similar to:
"Them PvE moderators are singling out PvPers on these here forums"
You know what? I think I'm rather good at this.
Obligatory:
I think the problem is that you're defining it. In your gut.
Sure, but that's not the point of the articles - they're essentially looking at the motivations and psychological make-up of an important group of people in online games: griefers. Gaming is a massive industry. Do you not think that game designers, writers and publishers won't want to know more about their customers in a way that is principled and (hopefully) reproducible? Do you not think that gamers themseves can learn something from the academic literature?
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But it does take a PhD to at least certify the level of research and relative integrity in the whatever's written.
It's like the difference between people knowing how to create fire by striking two solids together and someone who knows what flint and steel.
The former just knows that red sparks come out and there we have fire.
The latter understands that Fe2 + O2 = Fe203 + Heat.
In another word, would you rather have people only knowing how to navigate a phone or a person who knows in-depth how to build one from scratch and fix one?
I would prefer the latter, by a long shot, and those are the intellectuals in this case.
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We don't have computers because people sat around and waxed intellectual about how we should have them. We have computers because technically adept people sat down and made it happen.
What is the "computer" in this story? What is the change and progress you speak of?
Eeeee, come on. I'm a HARDCORE PvEer, hardcore minmaxer, I haven't had a single pvp fight yet, but I'm looking forward to being killed and getting better when it happens, or by some miracle realising that my preparations in PvE were enough to defeat the average griefer. I definitely do not have a victim mentality, some player killing me would be my strongest motivation yet for getting better (not that I need any, getting better at 6DOF dogfighting is something my intellect finds extremely rewarding, and that in turn strokes my ego too, all in all, it's endorphin city when I win a fight against the odds).
I know you didn't say anything directly to me, I'm just saying, watch where you're swinging that tar coated brush.
That's a noble sentiment but you're conflating PvP with griefing.
Sure, it's always fun to get into a stand-up fight, or even get attacked when you're doing something else, and a smart person will always be able to learn from the experience and, with luck, be able to modify their responses to help ensure success in future.
But, OTOH, what is there to learn from getting your ship blown up by mines on the landing-pad repeatedly for several minutes?
It's nothing to do with PvP or PvE. It's just about doing what's necessary to avoid having to share the game with tools.
Which, as somebody who prefers Open, is why I guess the block function comes in handy.
You sure you don't want to pay 20 dollars more to unlock the bright side of the forum for 30 days ._.?
The Medieval Warm Period in Europe seems to have been caused by changes in ocean circulation, in Europe at least.
I'm probably griefing some climate change deniers somewhere...
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As you added that later, it's one of the things where i think the line of thought goes wrong.
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First of all, yes, one article says that the griefer is motivated by competition. Not all of the articles claim that and according to my experience also not all griefers are following that line. (As mentioned, i've experienced griefers in several games, who easily were "outnumbered" by an equal or even smaller group of non-griefers, but achieved their "successes" by attacking exclusively when the non-griefer was weaked from a bossfight or something like that. )
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And those who actually follow the line of improving their skills very much dabble in the aspect of competitive PvP for me, which i again made clear.
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And all that being said, i don't consider Monkey on point, but still a rather unfounded accusation, wrongly worded at best. (And you would've done better not adding the TL/DR, your first part was better than this... )
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Alas if only I had the wisdom to have money to pay for wisdom.
It occurs to be I should verify my memory is correct and sophists charged for teachings. Be right back.
Deleted member 115407
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Again, my point is - what did these studies reveal that we don't already know?
Helpful in what way, and to who?
Personally, I find it most helpful to act consistently in real life and when playing games.
If helps me avoid making contrived justifications for my actions, it helps me avoid the need to be reflexively antagonistic, it helps me decide who I don't want to play games with and it helps me to help others in real-life and in games.
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