Horizons Is Arsenic a poisoned chalice? (NB - Not "how to find it" - discussion about published percentages.)

I'll say it again: the outcrops are the only things made up of the planetary composition - the meteorites are dropped onto the surface from space.

Now this thread was supposed to be about whether the published percentages squared-up with the reality. They don't.

Here is an example from this evening, I got fed up not getting any DMW scans so went for a wander on the little moon nearby. By smashing up a sequence of outcrops I picked up in the space of half an hour 2 chunks of antimony and 6 chunks of arsenic. The given percentages were 1.2 and 2.4 respectively (I ignored the mass of tin and niobium). This is a tiny rocky moon:


It seems to me that Arsenic is just one of those weird things in the game that you either trip over all the time or just get frustrated hunting for it. My conclusion is that the percentages are just not at all reliable.

What was the percentage metal of that little moon-let?? Your picture doesn't show that information.

Go here <<<< https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cJLQuoX3T481wmGKU1Ue4qUYkJkxIj02 >> and add up the percentages of materials listed on the two 100% metal planets.
They will add up to 100% +/- 1%

They means that the percentage show for Arsenic MUST be the same percentage of the planets total composition.
Now pick ANY non-100% metal planet and unlike the two in the folder I linked, there will be some % composition of rock, ice, or whatever and then a separate % for the metal. You add those two together and you will get 100% +/- 1%

So, the information I have been trying to convey applies directly to your question about the reliability of the percentages listed in the materials description. You cannot just look at the percentage of the material, You must also look at the percentage of the TOTAL composition that is metal and then work to the ACTUAL percentage of the specific material that is on that specific body.

So, what was the percentage metal of the little moon-let?? At 2.4% arsenic on a 10% metal body you would likely struggle to find any. While on a 33% body what you have described is entirely possible. On a 100% metal body is is almost guaranteed.
 
Ok, tried to look at Valimal. It is listed as an unexplored for me so I cannot see the planetary composition numbers..

I have to say cmdr I have not noticed any correlation between metal composition of planet and spawn of rarer mats.

I always used to follow the strategy that you describe but since I stopped and started firstly prospecting at random, followed by what I do these days, which is I go for a system with a large number of landable moons around a gas giant just because they are easy to scan.

I have not noticed any change in spawn rate of mats. It just seesm random to me. I am currently 30kly from the bubble looking for jumponium mats.
 
What was the percentage metal of that little moon-let?? Your picture doesn't show that information.
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They means that the percentage show for Arsenic MUST be the same percentage of the planets total composition.
Now pick ANY non-100% metal planet and unlike the two in the folder I linked, there will be some % composition of rock, ice, or whatever and then a separate % for the metal. You add those two together and you will get 100% +/- 1%
..............
So, what was the percentage metal of the little moon-let?? At 2.4% arsenic on a 10% metal body you would likely struggle to find any. .................

I don't know why I am bothering but here you go:

NGAq7F6.jpg


So you can see that your perceptions are entirely unfounded. I can hardly move for Arsenic, Niobium, Tin and Antimony on a ROCKY moon 86.2% rock 13.8% metal composition.

If you take your supposition that the metals listed in the Planet Materials add up to the percentage of metals in the body then you can see that stellar forge must have gone wrong to give 20.6% for Iron alone on a body with only 13.8% metals. Or perhaps rather than stellar forge being wrong, it is your supposition of how these things are linked that is erroneous.

Maybe now you will entertain the possibility of believing me that only outcrops are related to composition, whereas meteorites are deposited from space and are included in the "Planet Materials" (i.e. stuff you can find) but of course not in planetary "Composition".

Once again I am reinforced in the idea that the percentages in "Planet Materials" are not at all accurate and are at best a very rough guide to what is there and of course what is not, which I think is probably the most important information.
 
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At the risk of cracking open another can of annelids, do you guys know whether the %s under discussion refer to a statistical probability or a statistical distribution? Those are two fundamentally different ways to express the likelihood of finding any one material but they both use percentages. Seems to me the Composition stat is an indication of statistical distribution, but it could very well be (and most likely is) related to the entire planetoid, which means, if Stellar Forge is true to physics, that the 13.8% metal in Para Handy's example above would be primarily concentrated at the core, making any use of that number to determine surface composition (and thus also probability) for metals rather vague. Cosmically vague, pardon the pun.

The list of %s seems more like a breakdown of statistical probability, which would also take into account any non-native depositions from meteorites. The thing about statistical probabilities is that they are like slot machines -- every pull of the handle has the same chance of coming up 4 cherries, but it is a slim chance. So maybe you hit the As jackpot five times out of 100 instead of 2.6 times, it does not mean the percentages are inaccurate, just that you got lucky. The only way to check the percentages for accuracy is by taking an absurdly large sampling, greater than 50% of the entire planetoid. Plus, if generation of available resource features is procedural instead of fixed over the entire planetoid at the moment of instancing, that whole effort would be wasted, as the game is then a local affair, with the probabilities changing as you change location and new resource instances crop up.

So, all the numbers could very well be very accurate, but we Commanders are still left with little more than a "very rough guide to what is there and of course what is not."
 
I find as long as I prioritise mesosiderites I can usually put together a good stock of arsenic.

I don’t know how accurate the %’s are on the material finder but every time I’ve got frustrated looking for arsenic it’s because I’ve just been looking for arsenic. I now always try and hunt down materials in sets, so if I need zirconium I’ll go visit a planet that has arsenic, selenium and zirconium. The search feels more productive this way...

I’ve also stopped trying to get a god roll for my FSD’s, 49-50% optimised mass and I’m happy. This keeps my arsenic woes in check... :)
 
At the risk of cracking open another can of annelids, do you guys know whether the %s under discussion refer to a statistical probability or a statistical distribution? Those are two fundamentally different ways to express the likelihood of finding any one material but they both use percentages. Seems to me the Composition stat is an indication of statistical distribution, but it could very well be (and most likely is) related to the entire planetoid, which means, if Stellar Forge is true to physics, that the 13.8% metal in Para Handy's example above would be primarily concentrated at the core, making any use of that number to determine surface composition (and thus also probability) for metals rather vague. Cosmically vague, pardon the pun.

The list of %s seems more like a breakdown of statistical probability, which would also take into account any non-native depositions from meteorites. The thing about statistical probabilities is that they are like slot machines -- every pull of the handle has the same chance of coming up 4 cherries, but it is a slim chance. So maybe you hit the As jackpot five times out of 100 instead of 2.6 times, it does not mean the percentages are inaccurate, just that you got lucky. The only way to check the percentages for accuracy is by taking an absurdly large sampling, greater than 50% of the entire planetoid. Plus, if generation of available resource features is procedural instead of fixed over the entire planetoid at the moment of instancing, that whole effort would be wasted, as the game is then a local affair, with the probabilities changing as you change location and new resource instances crop up.

So, all the numbers could very well be very accurate, but we Commanders are still left with little more than a "very rough guide to what is there and of course what is not."

You have nailed it Chip.
As I already tried to present.
There are multiple percentages at work here.
There is the percentage of the composition of the body and in the case of the Materials that is the percentage of the percentage of the body that is metal which would include the meteorites.
Then there is the percentage probability of finding something and that is weighted by:
1. the RARITY of the material.
AND
2. The percentage probability of finding the type of formation/meteorite that would contain that material.

Over the coarse of any large set of attempts the success rate should even out at the mean for the combination of all the percentages.

On the other hand it is possible to have a run of luck and hit on the extremes (both NEVER finding something and having it run out your ears) several times in a row.

Now, based on several people observing that they think they have better success finding meteorites on icy bodies, there could also be an unknown additional DEV inserted twisted percentage based on type of body, ie, icy, rocky but I cannot think of any scientific support for making such a differentiation. BUT, there is scientific support for the distribution of the percentage metal on the bodies around the star based on the star type. Some star types would be more likely to produce higher metal content planets/moons.

I think PH, who apparently has spent a lot of time wandering around on low metal planets looking for something that, while not rare, is not abundant, and not finding any has just had the Statistics Force smile on them to get the total statistical balance back into harmony.

This of course is heresy to a pure mathematician but to us lay people, it appears to happen and the people that run casinos depend on that belief to keep the losers coming back.

Me, I will keep playing the percentages and if I am looking for Tellurium I will go to system "X" in my spreadsheet. .8% of 100% should make it about twice as common as 1.3% of 32.9% in either system "D" or "H".
 
A Note to those asking for access to the labeled version of my spreadsheet.

There are no system names on this >>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=165478MDVLGp0QwixWiSi0Dx20VrM0-ogzVwC9vCGwco << for several reasons but mainly because.

I want to encourage those who are screaming around the galaxy with that ridiculously designed Advanced Discovery Scanner that uses no power looking for nothing other than FIRST DISCOVERY'S and bragging about their "exploration skills" to invest the CR's and time to actually EXPLORE the systems.

All of them had been "discovered" and someones name was on them,,,, BUT,,, about half the 100% metal bodies I have found had never been Detailed Surface Scanned and there have been so many 30%+ bodies that I have stopped count tracking them unless they there are so many in a system that the result is 23+ of 25 materials available OR at least 5 of the 6 rares. I have 12 such systems identified. On of them is Himang.

If I understand the compensations schedule correctly, I have made a LOT MORE CR's reporting the details than the "first discoverers" have made reporting a "first discovery".

The ADS in ACTIVE MODE should use at least as much power as the KWS uses all the time and the KWS should only draw full power when it is ACTIVELY SCANNING.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the total list of materials on a planet seem to matter a bit more than actual percentage.

Inow it's better to hunt for Arsenic on a planet with something like 1.5% and a list of 6-7 materials than a planet with 2%+ and 12 materials.

RNGeezus indeed.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the total list of materials on a planet seem to matter a bit more than actual percentage.

Inow it's better to hunt for Arsenic on a planet with something like 1.5% and a list of 6-7 materials than a planet with 2%+ and 12 materials.
Good point. Assuming those lists to be statistical probabilities, it makes sense. By analogy, if you stack a card deck with all face cards (low selection pool membership), turning up that Jack of Diamonds is always gonna be more likely than with a full deck, even if the stacked deck gets shuffled after every choice of a card.
 
Good point. Assuming those lists to be statistical probabilities, it makes sense. By analogy, if you stack a card deck with all face cards (low selection pool membership), turning up that Jack of Diamonds is always gonna be more likely than with a full deck, even if the stacked deck gets shuffled after every choice of a card.

The percentage list of the materials are not actually a "statistical probability of existence" and it will help if they are not thought of that way.

Those numbers closely track the scientific knowledge of the amounts of those elements in the known universe.


The percentage METAL composition is the important number. A low number of different elements on a body could allow for a larger percentage of each the fewer things on the body. I could go back and try to plot that with the data I have, but, off the top of my head I would say that what is most likely to be found would be that the amount of Iron or some other very common would get the biggest boost while the boost to the RARE's would be very modest at best.

What I have observed is that as the number of different elements goes down, so does the percentage of metal of the body. So , 2.5% of 10% with 6 MATS is much less that 2.5% of 33% with 10 MATS and both are less than 2.5% of 100% with 15 MATS.
 
The percentage list of the materials are not actually a "statistical probability of existence"...
And you know this how? Even if these numbers reflect the distribution of such elements in the Universe, we're not talking about cases where the entire Universe is being sampled, and the circumstances that generate the elements lists of the game's planets are basically opaque to the players. You're making assumptions that have no basis in fact other than anecdotes, which is a very poor basis for scientific hypotheses.

Also, I said nothing about probability of existence, which is a whole other ball of wax. For items in those lists, probability of existence on the planetoid is 100%, always. The numbers may (and this is an assumption as I have no inside knowledge of the game code involved) reflect the probability of discovering any particular elemental material. Having prospected in real life for gold, smoky quartz, blue feldspar, black tourmaline and a double handful of other mineral species, I know the difference between a chance of a species' existence in a location, and the probability I might find any.
 
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The "meteorite falls from space, therefore bodies don't matter" argument fails because the forge obviously determines different compositions for those same meteors on bodies right next to each other.
If composition varies, it's logical that distribution would too.
Distribution of meteors is more logically affected by body type than composition: mass, size etc.
 
The percentage list of the materials are not actually a "statistical probability of existence" and it will help if they are not thought of that way.

.................

Like I said above, I don't know why I bothered posting in response to you back there. I am afraid that you are exhibiting your normal attitude which is that you make an assumption and anyone that tells you otherwise you either ignore or indulge in sophistry. I think I will leave you to believe what you want.

(Sorry, I don't mean to go all ad hom or be rude, just all too familiar with the pattern.)
 
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And you continue to ignore the fact that the total metal composition on the body is the critical number.

The fact that on 100% metal planets the percentages of the lists materials always ads up to 100% +/- 1 % is the proof that the material percentages list on low metal composition is a percentage of the percentage of metal the body is composed of.

2.5% of 10% is much less that 2.5% of 33% and that both are much less than 2.5% of 100% and that is exactly the answer to your original question about whether the percentages list were accurate.

I had absolutely no problem finding all the Arsenic 2.1% I wanted on a 100% metal planet in the system in column "H" of my spreadsheet. Ended up leaving it laying on the surface while i was looking for Antimony 1.2%. Which is exactly what should happen since the Arsenic was 2 level less rare (therefore "statistically" more likely to drop from a source) and was 1.75 times as plentiful.
 
Good point. Assuming those lists to be statistical probabilities, it makes sense. By analogy, if you stack a card deck with all face cards (low selection pool membership), turning up that Jack of Diamonds is always gonna be more likely than with a full deck, even if the stacked deck gets shuffled after every choice of a card.

Precisely.

And isn't all games that rely on any form of RNG "probability games with extra steps"?
 
And you continue to ignore the fact that the total metal composition on the body is the critical number.

The fact that on 100% metal planets the percentages of the lists materials always ads up to 100% +/- 1 % is the proof that the material percentages list on low metal composition is a percentage of the percentage of metal the body is composed of.


I totally disproved your assertion back in post #44 where I had responded to your request for the planetary composition. This clearly shows that planetary composition lists metal as 13.8% yet the "Planetary Materials" shows iron alone at 20%. Therefore the materials percentages are not a direct derivation from planetary composition, although no doubt some correlation may exist.

The percentages of "planetary materials" ALWAYS add up to 100 (+/- 0.1 or so).

Perhaps you consider Sulphur and Phosphorous metals, even Arsenic and Antimony are not really metals (they are metalloids, as are Germanium and Tellurium in surface materials elsewhere).

So, as I said, you will continue to believe whatever you have decided.


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Over the past couple of days I have checked the video talks from the Devs about stellar forge for a definitive answer to materials derivation per planet but not found any answers, I believe there was a detailed stellar forge article in one of the old newsletters but I can't find it now and I can't remember if it covered planetary materials rather than planetary composition. Whist it is entirely plausible that materials found in the two types of outcrops are directly dependant upon the body's composition, the determination of what the deposited meteorites might consist of has never, I believe, been explained. It would be nice to know.

I can only say that as far as the percentages given in the "Planetary Materials" are concerned, which is what this thread was about (not how best to find arsenic), they seem to be just a rough guide and only really useful in indicating what you will not find on the surface.


(P.S. Regarding why this thread looked at Arsenic percentages, it is only that as my new commander was in Deciat and wanted more Arsenic for FSD mods I went to nearest body listing Arsenic. The paucity of Arsenic occurrences on there compared to the more rare elements made me question the relevance of the percentages given on the system map.)
 
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