Modes Elite Dangerous - An inside look at BGS PVP (SAW Parody)

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

It's not the only answer, not by a long shot

Why do so many pew-pews get so upset when others don't play with them? I'm not against you yourself 90's, or anyone else really, and I'm absolutely sure that many of the more vocal PvP-Pro-Bro's have encountered some account of mine at some point. Win, lose, draw, that doesn't matter.

Now, what does matter is peoples general behavior. If you hold a house party, and everything is going fine, but someone wants to put on different music - that can generally be accommodated without issue. Thing is, some people are more interested in not only demanding to put on different music, but kicking your cabs in, curling out a lumpy steamer on the carpet, sticking the cat to the ceiling with duct tape, and running off with everything valuable they can find, whilst giving rude gestures as they run away shouting "Git Gud!"

That's not really an issue for the seasoned player. They just invite the undesireables to someplace nobody else is, and they just make sure to hold the best parties in someone elses house

Because the outlets for direct PVP frontier has provided arent being used when people opt out of them because of the modes.

They created specifics to this game for that feature and that feature alone. Direct PVP.

And again, because of those imbalances the modes bring for objective control. The community created their own outlet instead.

Definitely not intended.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

True griefers have caused people to leave open, it could also be that they went to PG because where they are (in the bubble or out side) they dont see that many people so they got their friends (or fiends) together so they had the social interaction they wanted.

It is probably even more complicated than that. I for one dont think the majority of people who are in solo or pg are there because its "easy" although some do and you have stated the big bad PvPBros go there to grind so sure there are some but I think you are trying to belittle and mock a whole group of players based on a subset.

You get all huffy when you think others are doing it to you so what about actually not doing that, because in some peoples eyes that makes you seem more like a punk/puke. Not that I think you are, you are just very vehement and vocal in your opinion.

That is what it is , an opinion, the game will change untill it doesnt and the changes that come will probably bring joy to some or dispare to others but the most of us will just happily play the game we love.

Without being petulant children and threatening to burn down Jita ( ooops wrong game sorry)

Funny how lots of people share that same opinion when they get into different types of PVP. So much so its fueled years of Hotel California.

All with new people coming and going. And voicing their own opinions. Which ends up being the same opinion and conclusion.

 

[Roybe]

Right, thats what the META is. Removing any need for PVP. Because thats where you get most of your work done. Safely, more bang for your buck with no shields. NPC's wont bother you. The player faction you're fighting(hauling) against wont bother you.

MOST EFFECTIVE TACTICAL ADVANTAGE

Thats all this is being used for. Its not because people are getting "griefed". They are doing it because thats the most efficient way for them and their faction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYXTh4TCVo

Tell me how we are supposed to do this, with Player factions or Powerplay? ITS WHAT PVP IS FOR.

https://youtu.be/0545WHDzT7w?t=2112

Watch this clip. it starts at 35 mins, goes on for about 3-4 mins.

When people use those modes to their advantage. Removing the need for any PVP in this game. Creating toxicity. Everyone yelling grief. No outlet for PVPers. The community had to make their own outlet. Instead of using the ones frontier created for us.

If you think C&P is going to be helpful to Open population, I disagree. My problem with Open? I don't have time to deal with messing around with people. I want something from a CG...I play the CG....and leave Open to the hardcore folks that want to play make believe strategy. All the C & P will do is apply punishment across all players for being naughty. Killing authority ships in a Hi Sec system...you have problems dealing with that Hi Sec system. Oh, you wanted to flip something...well that becomes more painful. In any mode. All it does is weaken the PVP need for blockades...since the game will automagically blockade the activities for you...time will tell if this is an improvement or not.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Because the outlets for direct PVP frontier has provided arent being used when people opt out of them because of the modes.

They created specifics to this game for that feature and that feature alone. Direct PVP.

And again, because of those imbalances the modes bring for objective control. The community created their own outlet instead.

Definitely not intended.

Again - it's the need for control that made a whole mess of both Open and the Powerplay mechanics.

Players weren't happy in not having agency, so some of them deliberately pledged to some Power and went around shooting other members of the same Power for "reasons". Not too many people were particularly fond of that.

Then FD decided to attempt to give the pew-pews some glorious action and delivered unto them CQC. It was supposed to satiate the pew-pews so that they wouldn't bother the general population of the game and incentivise Open, as all the mad-nutter-psych-kill-freaks would all be busy slaughtering each other in the Arena.

It didn't work out that way. I wonder why

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

If you think C&P is going to be helpful to Open population, I disagree. My problem with Open? I don't have time to deal with messing around with people. I want something from a CG...I play the CG....and leave Open to the hardcore folks that want to play make believe strategy. All the C & P will do is apply punishment avross all players for being naughty. Killing authority ships in a Hi Sec system...you have problems dealing with that Hi Sec system. Oh, you wanted to flip something...well that becomes more painful. In any mode. All it does is weaken the PVP need for blockades...since the game will automagically blockade the activities for you...time will tell if this is an improvement or not.

Well we dont know everything about it yet. only what they have told us. They have expressed that there is more we are getting whether we like it or not.

But I agree. The C&P is going to change things. Buuuuuuuuuuut, they did hint at adjusting the powerplay for it by saying thing like "in the live build". Just reading between the lines here.

As far as the BGS goes. Its certainly going to make things interesting. Everything you said is correct. And I think thats alright. Honestly it makes it harder for the solo player to make an impact they used to. I expect lots of people to be upset about this when it hits. Because its going to be hard to tank influences alone. Especially with the 2nd tier cops Sandro was speaking about.

Its a nerf to solo when it comes to effecting multiplayer parts of the game. I dont think a lot of people have realized this yet.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Again - it's the need for control that made a whole mess of both Open and the Powerplay mechanics.

Players weren't happy in not having agency, so some of them deliberately pledged to some Power and went around shooting other members of the same Power for "reasons". Not too many people were particularly fond of that.

Then FD decided to attempt to give the pew-pews some glorious action and delivered unto them CQC. It was supposed to satiate the pew-pews so that they wouldn't bother the general population of the game and incentivise Open, as all the mad-nutter-psych-kill-freaks would all be busy slaughtering each other in the Arena.

It didn't work out that way. I wonder why

Well to be fair, lots of people love CQC. But its too buggy. Match making is garbage, the ranking is garbage. It just felt like a placeholder to be honest. I expect that to be updated later on down the road. Who knows maybe its abandoned. It could be really awesome though. And if it worked well, and had a MMR ladder, with a different style of progression and rewards.

Id personally only play that part of the game for the most part. I dont know if you can tell. I love competition =P

 

[Darkfyre99]

"Get Gud" The equivalent of WE play PVP and since WE play PVP then you have to as well. I love how people like you crow about the "play your way" unless it is people playing other ways then your specific way.. then it becomes "play YOUR way" and be damned about any other playstyles.

And I love how you think that those who do not like PVP don't know how to do it, have not learned the "whole game" as you put it. Not wanting to do something does not equate to no knowledge of it.

What really gets me is that even if these so-called "PvPers" get their way, their self described strategy of "defending" their faction won't work:

• Defensive blockades don't work in games, unless the attacker is kind enough to schedule their attack in advance. The attacker will always have the advantage of getting to chose when, where, how, and what platform. It is a losing strategy.
• If the faction they support is control of the system, their blockade will cost them influence, and drive them into lockdown. This will have negative effects on their faction. It is a losing strategy.
• The investment in time and resources to make a blockade runner is trivial compared to a PvP metaship. It doesn't have to destroy the PvP metaship, it just has to survive long enough to dock. Meanwhile, its friends make their runs unopposed. It is a losing strategy.
• Killing everybody who isn't a member of their group destroys the influence they would've brought to the faction they support, and ensures that those players may not return. This means that the only influence gained by their faction is that earned by the group themselves. It is a losing strategy.
• Players on patrol do not earn the faction they support influence, or in the case of Powerplay, merits. As far as the game is concerned, they're not doing nothing in support. It is a losing strategy.

These so-called "PvPers" who demand that players uninterested in PvP "git gud" if they want to enjoy their game seem intent on following a losing strategy, one that ignores the realities of BGS work, online gaming, and what the most powerful tool in any BGS player's arsenal is.

The irony is delicious.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yep. As established previously its possible to affect the BGS even from the individual level- the "issue" here is that those opposed to the PP apparently believe that there's a Grassy Knoll conspirator that's making the BGS affect PP.

And they'd be right. BGS work is an important part of Powerplay. If a Power has an active and effective BGS unit, they can reduce the amount of time, efforts, and credits the fortifiers have to haul by 67%. It's how I contribute to Powerplay, even though I'm not pledged at the moment. I didn't like any of the ways to earn merits, so I contribute by playing the parts of the game I enjoy.

I wonder how many of those fortifiers would be willing to continue playing Powerplay if they were forced to do it in Open. Would these so-called "PvPers" be willing to put their PvP ships into drydock and run cargo all week?

Powerplay is on life support at the moment. Instead of asking that Frontier revive it by making it appealing to a wider audience, these so-called "PvPers" are demanding that Frontier make it even more unappealing to general player base. Madness.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Not "nearly exactly". Just "exactly". There's zero difference between liberals of hip 69420 and "edge lord faction ELITE".

The only people who own factions, including "player factions", is FD. There is nothing tying a player's account to a specific faction. They can go from fighting for its influence to downright destroying it, in BGS terms, in a heartbeat, without any consequence.

This is why I cannot take "BGS players" seriously. Nobody has a controlling stake in anything, bar their own vessel.

I do BGS work primarily for fun and profit. In my home system, for example, I work with all the factions, including two factions that are perpetually at war, to maximize mission variety. When it comes to BGS work for my chosen Power, I focus on weakening the power in charge, and then let combat oriented players do the heavy lifting. When I operate in the Federation, I'm more interested in what faction states I can generate.

When I think about it, I'm rather evil when it comes to the lives of NPCs. It's like I think they exist solely for my amusement.

But I do understand how players can view factions, especially player generated factions, as "theirs." Its human nature to organize ourselves into tribes, after all.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

What really gets me is that even if these so-called "PvPers" get their way, their self described strategy of "defending" their faction won't work:

• Defensive blockades don't work in games, unless the attacker is kind enough to schedule their attack in advance. The attacker will always have the advantage of getting to chose when, where, how, and what platform. It is a losing strategy.
• If the faction they support is control of the system, their blockade will cost them influence, and drive them into lockdown. This will have negative effects on their faction. It is a losing strategy.
• The investment in time and resources to make a blockade runner is trivial compared to a PvP metaship. It doesn't have to destroy the PvP metaship, it just has to survive long enough to dock. Meanwhile, its friends make their runs unopposed. It is a losing strategy.
• Killing everybody who isn't a member of their group destroys the influence they would've brought to the faction they support, and ensures that those players may not return. This means that the only influence gained by their faction is that earned by the group themselves. It is a losing strategy.
• Players on patrol do not earn the faction they support influence, or in the case of Powerplay, merits. As far as the game is concerned, they're not doing nothing in support. It is a losing strategy.

These so-called "PvPers" who demand that players uninterested in PvP "git gud" if they want to enjoy their game seem intent on following a losing strategy, one that ignores the realities of BGS work, online gaming, and what the most powerful tool in any BGS player's arsenal is.

The irony is delicious.

Im sorry. Most of this is wrong.

you're right in the attacker has the advantage. Especially when they use solo and private.

If you kill someone stacking +++ passenger missions or Data missions. Their personal influence tanks. They are set back in time. And they are set back in rebuys. And it effects their influence to the overall outset they would have had on the BGS.

This is why I made the initial video. GO WATCH IT. It proves this.

The kill or murder when you find them wont change influences that much. Youd have to do it over and over and over. Meanwhile both sides that are fighting, are both doing things to influence the BGS. They arent out there just looking for PVP.

None of this is a losing strategy. Its only a losing strategy if you ONLY PvP.

How do I know all of this?

BECAUSE IM DOING IT. Our group has tested this against each other.

The ONLY irony here is you say you know what you're doing. And you dont.

 

[Asp Explorer]

None of this is a losing strategy. Its only a losing strategy if you ONLY PvP.

How do I know all of this?

BECAUSE IM DOING IT. Our group has tested this against each other.

The irony here is you say you know what you're doing. And you dont.

The simplest solution that presents itself then is, continue testing against each other, and you'll get all the PVP you could possibly want

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Id also like to make one more point.

If people are in your system trying to kill your NPC ships. You can defend against the player too trying to do that as well.

Or if you go into another system where another group is trying to boost their influence. You can murder and stop anything and everything in those systems as well. Passenger missions, data bombs whatever.

There is so much you can do with PVP here. To effect the BGS. And the influences people can bring to it.

None of this can be done in solo and private. THATS WHY PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING THESE WARS IN SOLO AND PRIVATE

all their progress could be stopped against the people they are fighting against. They would have to learn to fight.

They are there to PVP in the first place, And you shouldnt only be able to do half of it.

Thats why PVP has no place in Elite right now. And the community is small. Because people Intentionally dont do it for the advantage.

PVP would be massive right now when it comes to player factions IN WAR or powerplay meant for Player Vs Player interactions if they didnt have the choice to swap into the easier mode where they couldnt be effected.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

There are ways that FD could rework PP and the BGS to encourage contextual PvP in this game. I've definitely pitched a bunch, and have seen many good pitches.

I really hope that FD are taking all of the given input into consideration.

 

[Sylveria]

Id also like to make one more point.

If people are in your system trying to kill your NPC ships. You can defend against the player too trying to do that as well.

Or if you go into another system where another group is trying to boost their influence. You can murder and stop anything and everything in those systems as well. Passenger missions, data bombs whatever.

There is so much you can do with PVP here. To effect the BGS. And the influences people can bring to it.

None of this can be done in solo and private. THATS WHY PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING THESE WARS IN SOLO AND PRIVATE

all their progress could be stopped against the people they are fighting against. They would have to learn to fight.

They are there to PVP in the first place, And you shouldnt only be able to do half of it.

Thats why PVP has no place in Elite right now. And the community is small. Because people Intentionally dont do it for the advantage.

PVP would be massive right now when it comes to player factions IN WAR or powerplay meant for Player Vs Player interactions if they didnt have the choice to swap into the easier mode where they couldnt be effected.

As I've said before, those who are interested in pew-pew tactics to begin with already play in Open.

If it's not quite as "full" as you think it should be, apparently there isn't much support for your argument.

TL;DR - Not everyone plays for pew-pew.

Oh and by the way - businesses don't make fundamental decisions based on "possibility" they make them on "probability". A Venture Capitalist doesn't loan you money unless you can SHOW there's going to be a return on their investment- "promises" don't count. If you told me there's 5,000 people who would buy the game just because it's a pew-pew FFA- I'd ask you why they don't already own it- that's 5,000 people who could be playing and engaging with each other NOW as opposed to "maybe". You can throw words like "potential" around all you want, but at the end of the day- it's the amount in the account that matters.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

As I've said before, those who are interested in pew-pew tactics to begin with already play in Open.

If it's not quite as "full" as you think it should be, apparently there isn't much support for your argument.

TL;DR - Not everyone plays for pew-pew.

Oh and by the way - businesses don't make fundamental decisions based on "possibility" they make them on "probability". A Venture Capitalist doesn't loan you money unless you can SHOW there's going to be a return on their investment- "promises" don't count. If you told me there's 5,000 people who would buy the game just because it's a pew-pew FFA- I'd ask you why they don't already own it- that's 5,000 people who could be playing and engaging with each other NOW as opposed to "maybe". You can throw words like "potential" around all you want, but at the end of the day- it's the amount in the account that matters.

Hey you know what. You're right.

They can easily look at who is fighting over objectives in which mode. Outlets for PVP that was made for Direct PVP. And they are still using those modes to circumvent direct PVP in a part of the game it was made for.

So you're right. If we can see it. Frontier can see it. Trust me. They have those numbers.

 

[Sylveria]

Hey you know what. You're right.

They can easily look at who is fighting over objectives in which mode. Outlets for PVP that was made for Direct PVP. And they are still using those modes to circumvent direct PVP in a part of the game it was made for.

So you're right. If we can see it. Frontier can see it. Trust me. They have those numbers.

Of course. And they haven't changed anything- years later. So what does that tell you?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Of course. And they haven't changed anything- years later. So what does that tell you?

The beyond changes are all about the Core mechanics of this game and fixing them properly. Addressing those problems that have existed.

Parts of the game that was intended for certain uses.

I do however think there are massive changes coming to this game within the narrative. Again looking back in the lore. The Thargoids almost wiped humanity out last time. And now we just have them poking a couple of stations. That doesnt make sense. I dont think the real invasion happened yet. Especially since they are called scouts. David Braben said on Djtruthsayers stream it could be Bubble Vs Bubble. Us vs Them. But what we dont know, if its all just predetermined like Operation Sirius Business was. And what we did as a group didnt matter.

So if we get anything like they described that happened in the past. All that has to happen first. And if that does? Where does that even leave powerplay if I get my wish and they destroy the bubble?

Soooo I think they took all these years worth of feedback though hotel california. And will adjust it from there.

im going to be awfully upset if they make the same mistake with squadrons where it gives player factions guilds to play with. To wage war against another faction. A war where you go into solo and private and haul to the death. Like they did with powerplay.

Thats not what PVP is for.

Again I am here to give PVP a meaning to this game. Instead of it just being salt induced.

If people dont want to PVP then dont. Dont do any of it. Do it all. Or dont do any.

And that will give it definition.

That is why I believe we are waiting.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

So if we get anything like they described that happened in the past. All that has to happen first. And if that does? Where does that even leave powerplay if I get my wish and they destroy the bubble?

So, that's a huge consideration when we talk about core gameplay changes, and one that folks should keep in mind. I try to keep that in mind as I throw ideas and criticism around.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I do BGS work primarily for fun and profit. In my home system, for example, I work with all the factions, including two factions that are perpetually at war, to maximize mission variety. When it comes to BGS work for my chosen Power, I focus on weakening the power in charge, and then let combat oriented players do the heavy lifting. When I operate in the Federation, I'm more interested in what faction states I can generate.

When I think about it, I'm rather evil when it comes to the lives of NPCs. It's like I think they exist solely for my amusement.

But I do understand how players can view factions, especially player generated factions, as "theirs." Its human nature to organize ourselves into tribes, after all.

Perhaps. But objectively speaking, I am right. The player has no stake in any MF. I would not be against this changing. But as is, as is.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The question is at what cost?
What about the pilot who is not pleged to a faction just running missions killing NPCs etc without any knowledge of how it is "Attacking" you, You want to remove the BGS (at least you have stated that in the past but switch around sometimes) from everyone unless they are in open. That is what makes the game function as a simulated universe with fluctuating prices availability of missions etc. You are advocating removing the game from them entirely, what would they get in return? Is Frontier going to install the full BGS on their personal computers, would their computers be able to handle the calculations etc?

I am not sure what is going to happen with squads etc in the game, I hope for some fun times ahead where I can play the same game in all modes if I so choose, not 3 or more separate games. I hope for the best but certainly dont want other players to loose the game they enjoy, thankfully those changes are above my pay grade.

No for the last time.

If you are involved in PVP. You are involved in all of it. Not some of it. ALL OF IT.

Player factions and powerplay only.

The rest would remain the same.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Go read what I have said 1000 times.

Im talking about groups vs groups. Groups that knowingly and willing fight against each other.

And groups that take advantage of solo and private against their adversaries. Just because they are there. This has nothing to do with griefing. Never has, Never was.