Beyond C&P - Must admit I'm slightly concerned about PvP piracy outcome

[Oldric]

Strange... I thought it was all about good game mechanics to result in a good game outcome?

So a CG is delivering X to Y to any system with security. As a PvP pirate I like the notion of trying to steal X, and then delivering it to Y. How can I now do that? If I threaten violence, the victim now knows there's even more penalties against me, and if I simply use the new limpets (which are not even fit for purpose in truth) I then cannot go to the station to sell the goods for the CG?


Am I understanding that right? It seems that this a hammer to crack a nut mechanic?

Am I missing something? I hope so Because the above was poorly paid as it was, and now it's just got added faff and pain

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding this as it simply just screws piracy over even more

You maybe missing something I dunno. I pirate in the non anarchy CG system, picking up a few fines and maybe a small bounty. I then hop over to the system i am based out of for the CG, here I transfer my ill gotten gains into a clean ship then back to the cg system to cash in. or if possible i base out of a system with an interstellar factor, payoff the cops and go back to the cg system in my pirate ship.

Not a huge pain, the big change is I have to ask myself the question is it going to be worthwhile pirating 'this particular' target.

 

[Chaparral]

The game simply does not have good tools for piracy IMO. Limpets are lame - dribbling cargo all over the place. "Give me your stuff or I'll pew pew you."

Pirates latch on, pirates board, pirates personally threaten, pirates murder and torture to coerce, pirates steal ships or steal the most valuable cargo (or all of it), pirates kidnap and hold for ransom. Privateers are pirates in the employ of a power. None of those things are possible in ED. FDEV has a ton of work to do here to make piracy possible or remotely interesting.

 

[NascentChemist]

I'm not sure this hasn't been said, but an easy fix would be to relegate most piracy related crimes to fines. Or to allow access to the black market under the anonymous protocols.

Or to have a trading ship parked in an adjacent system. Pirate in your Cobra and jump into your Type-6 to be pirated yourself turn in goods. The T-6 will be clean.

Using hatch breakers or firing a few shots across the bow could generate fines that can be cleared relatively easily. Sniping the PP to malfunction or killing drives might create more serious fines. Murder should always incur a bounty.

Actually, I'd let myself be pirated more often if I knew that pirates would face steep penalties for murdering me. As it stands, I've got too many incentives to avoid that initial interdiction completely.

 

[sovapid]

There is if you're stealing cargo from individuals at a CG. This is a very likely place to pirate?

I gave feedback on this a while ago....

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...NDING-INTO-CRIME-ISSUES?p=6138413#post6138413

For the most part pirating at CG's is the only place PVP piracy makes sense. The odd's of running into another player in some random system is so small it isn't worth it.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

The game simply does not have good tools for piracy IMO. Limpets are lame - dribbling cargo all over the place. "Give me your stuff or I'll pew pew you."

Pirates latch on, pirates board, pirates personally threaten, pirates murder and torture to coerce, pirates steal ships or steal the most valuable cargo (or all of it), pirates kidnap and hold for ransom. Privateers are pirates in the employ of a power. None of those things are possible in ED. FDEV has a ton of work to do here to make piracy possible or remotely interesting.

Pirates do a lot more, even worse things that would give the mods fits just to think about, and that's just the historical pirates. Today's modern sea-trash is potentially worse.

Limpets are actually alright, especially if combined with Collectors to clean up after Hatch Breakers, but... without a means of actually detaining another ship, holding it until the commander releases the requested cargo, or manages to break free... Piracy doesn't really amount to much more than "Give me cargo, or I shall ask you to give me cargo again, in a more stern voice."

 

[kofeyh]

Issue is killing. PvP piracy might see a downturn, but after proper consequences way piracy works might get improved, along with low hanging fruits.

Issue is the game actually putting context around killing. It doesn't care. Ergo Piracy cannot be "improved" if it's ostensibly ignored. Remember, no-one asked for the game to care why. Just that it happened. It's a bit late now, to suddenly question if that was a good idea.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I think the idea is that cargo containers themselves have encrypted ID/tracking technologies in them. SO if you steal one from somewhere, the canister itself will self-flag as "stolen". If you take it to an Anarchy system, people will still care whether or not the canister they're getting from you is marked as "stolen" or not, because it limits their ability to re-sell it. If they're just planning on opening up the container and using all of it's contents right then and there--Ok no Problem--but the world of Elite Dangerous is essentially one giant network of middle-men and most commodities are likely to be re-sold somewhere else.

Consequently your stolen cargo is objectively less valuable, even to criminals, even in an anarchy system.

"But can't they just hack the cargo software and spoof the ownership data? Or can't they just take it out of the canister and load it into a new fresh one?"

Yeah they can. That's work. That's why your stolen cargo is less valuable. Even to criminals.

Or you can look at it from the reverse perspective:
If the "legit" market and the "black" market were all one thing, then that would mean when you *buy* cargo at a market in Anarchy systems, some of it would be stolen goods (and marked/transmitting as such), and if you took it anywhere outside of an Anarchy system, you would only be able to sell it at Black markets, not in regular markets. Would you be willing to pay the same prices for goods which can get you a fine or bounty, as you would pay for clean goods?

I know what he and you are saying but I would assume that there are means to remove commodities from the cargo canister or remove the wanted status by hacking them which we ourselves don't have the means. I would also have to assume that most commodities would be needed if you sold them in the right economy type, hence the reason for a high demand. If you try to sell your ill gotten goods in the wrong economy type then the price should be lower.

Also this is all about gameplay too. Pirating is a very unlucrative job/profession, I am trying to make it so it is fun for the people that want to pirate and hamstring them from the word go. If it is going to be cost you to sell these good at an anarchy system then it will be more cost effective to trade them. Again making piracy redundant and not worth it.

Pirates are taking great risks to do what they do and to not be rewarded for those risks will kill it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There is if you're stealing cargo from individuals at a CG. This is a very likely place to pirate?



If they don't scan you? Yes!



Strange! I've been doing this exact thing for years! Extracting cargo by threats (can then get legal cargo). Or by limpet and selling at black market (if there's one).

The reason NOT to sell the cargo elsewhere is that it's worth even less elsewhere (because you're not contributing towards the CG total - so no bonus).



It feels like there's no scale to this. ie: Once you misbehave badly enough, you lose facilities. Instead of misbehave at all and you lose facilities.

What you do when you get your stolen cargo is that you sell it at the local anarchy system, then go and buy some clean cargo with the cash, and contribute that way.

 

[Ouberos]

This was all discussed during the beyond feedback and the majority of people who play as Pirate on a regular basis felt the changes were bobbins. There are several flaws in the system (which we will happily show you all during implementation ) and the eventual outcome will be a reduction of content, both in game and externally. If your ship becomes limited and credits are the only escape then actual gameplay is pointless and you might as well credit farm / mode switch to be able to continue playing. Not everyone plays this way currently but that will be the end result. The game will dissolve into a week of farming and a weekend of destruction.

As for external content, high profile YouTube Pirates have already quit producing and it's likely others will follow. Excluding Obsidian Ant PvP recordings are the main content for Elite. Piracy features heavily in those. This is because it's entertaining, both as gameplay and to watch. As far as I'm aware there don't seem to be many powerful clips of people mode switching or max passenger missions coming through. Maybe Rinzler should make The Git Gud guide to mode switching for paying off Punishment fines?

Anyway, I'm sure the new system has been well thought out.

Also why is this thread not in the PvP section?

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Nothing stops you from going to an anarchy system to sell your goods which in reality is where you should be selling them and not at a black market. Black markets should be only for certain illegal goods that are wanted in that system and not a dumping ground of your ill gotten goods.

have to agree here - bloody hell this is becoming a habit, and I thought mind tricks only worked on the weak minded... wait.

 

[Blasphemous One]

Welcoming changes, Piracy is never about killing your victims, people can no longer use PvP Piracy as an excuse to grief.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Welcoming changes, Piracy is never about killing your victims, people can no longer use PvP Piracy as an excuse to grief.

That +1. The "Oh but I play a pirate" lame duck excuse is going to flush down nicely.

Now, let's speak about piracy payout and Tools. lol. XD

 

[Marra Morgan]

Now, let's speak about piracy payout and Tools. lol. XD

This!

We've heard the Stick, now where is the Carrot?

 

[Sandmann]

So yes, illegal destruction (of a CMDR) should result in significant penalties.

But, if you're simply trying to be the nicest pirate you can, and even only use the existing crummy limpet mechanism to extract cargo from another CMDR, surely you're now going to be even worse off due to this new C&P mechanism? ie: Lose station facility access etc etc?

Sandro said he really wanted to see pirates etc "calling anarchy systems home". There's no crimes in an anarchy.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

This!

We've heard the Stick, now where is the Carrot?

What stick, don't see it. You'll now be able to just run a clean ship and killer ship and be able to void the consequences of your crimes by just swapping seats. I think it will make it easier for killers and not much more of a bind for pirats as they wont be getting huge 'murder' bounties.

 

[RJMcReady]

errr piracy is robbery with threat of death.

without the death bit you are a space begger.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

And whats with protecting criminals leaving penal systems by putting them in a solo instance, don't see them doing this for beginners and I thought this was against the principles of 'anything goes open'.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And whats with protecting criminals leaving penal systems by putting them in a solo instance, don't see them doing this for beginners and I thought this was against the principles of 'anything goes open'.

No, you will launch from prison ship and before you will jump into supercruise you will be in solo - same as beginners.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

No, you will launch from prison ship and before you will jump into supercruise you will be in solo - same as beginners.

So all the 'open only' fanatics will be forced into solo momentarily, delicious.

Don't seem right tho'; kill people at rescue ship in open but when you undock at penal colony you're magically protected, why?

 

[Blasphemous One]

errr piracy is robbery with threat of death.

without the death bit you are a space begger.

Beggars can beg.

Pirates can always interdict, blow up FSD / use dumbfire and rip apart cargo bays, ofcourse there are cleaner ways. if this is too much for you, try mining.