Beyond C&P - Must admit I'm slightly concerned about PvP piracy outcome

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

- Pirate are the worst scum in the universe, evil criminal.
- It's the players choice to be a criminal.
- this is not a Disney theme park ride called "Pirates of the Caribbean" or a fantasy movie made from that (even in that move pirates face worse consequences than pirates in this game)

Pirates are criminals and now get treated in a way that might indicate that they are criminals and that could potentially cause mild inconveniences.

Currently there are no criminals in this galaxy, crime is meaningless as it has absolutely zero consequences. Why should anybody pirate, smuggle or do kill ships of evil oppressing factions if nothing happens?

Today smuggles are traders that fly fast or use silent running because it's fun.
Pirates are traders that simply too dumb to just buy that stuff they want to trade.
…

 

[Rafe Zetter]

OK look. If a life of crime is more work for less fun and payoff than honest trading, then why do it? People claim to want realism in this game, yet somehow they want the pirate life to be a glorious romanticised Hollywood vision of piracy. As a pirate, you're basically asking for something-for-nothing. You want a trader to give you their cargo for no reward with little to no effort, but are unwilling to take the restrictions that gives.

Look at it from the other side. What fun is it to a trader (particularly a newbie) to have their cargo stolen? At the very least, they lose time and progress toward their goal. They potentially fail a mission and get a fine (or in extremis an enforcer chasing them down), and if they refuse to comply, they get damage to their ship and still lose the cargo, or worse, get sent to the rebuy screen. There is NEVER any positive outcome for the victim. Even escaping by high-waking costs time which can lead to failed missions.

For the pirate, they either get some free cargo or they have to force it in which case they get a tiny fine or a bounty that lasts about as long as the smell of a fart. No real negatives except that the profit isn't as much as they like.

Even with the new C&P proposals, pirates have it easy. In reality, even anarchies protect their own people, at least close to port, otherwise they'd lose what legitimate trade they do have. (They need to supply the base somehow, or else you'll not be able to make repairs/upgrades.)

Lawless is only fun until you need to make use of facilities. Because even where said facilities exist (and are available to you as an outsider), they need maintenance and supply themselves. Granted, this could be a great source of pirate missions; get us n tonnes of such-and-such raw materials by any means you can... we heard there may be a ship carrying x% of n passing through system Y at z time. If you can do that, we'll give you access to the repair shop.

etc.

Agreed and agreed.

Can you elucidate on the scales and potency thereof of said fart, just so I can get a relative timescale measure? Are we talking a small and relatively harmless "BRAP", or the "lingering death" that clears whole shopping aisles (yes really) as favored by my cousin Sarah?

 

[NeilF]

- Pirate are the worst scum in the universe, evil criminal.
- It's the players choice to be a criminal.
- this is not a Disney theme park ride called "Pirates of the Caribbean" or a fantasy movie made from that (even in that move pirates face worse consequences than pirates in this game)

Pirates are criminals and now get treated in a way that might indicate that they are criminals and that could potentially cause mild inconveniences.

Currently there are no criminals in this galaxy, crime is meaningless as it has absolutely zero consequences. Why should anybody pirate, smuggle or do kill ships of evil oppressing factions if nothing happens?

Today smuggles are traders that fly fast or use silent running because it's fun.
Pirates are traders that simply too dumb to just buy that stuff they want to trade.
…

This is possibly the most pointless post I've read for a good while.

It has nothing to do with the points being raised in the thread. Seems completely unwilling to see the bigger picture of how different professions can and should bounce off each other for the greater good of the game. And in truth just seems like a needless excuse to get on a soap box and spout rhetoric.

Apart from that, it's great!

ps: I hope in truth you're trying to be utterly sarcastic and ironic, and that it's soo good at that it's gone over my head!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Pirates are traders that simply too dumb to just buy that stuff they want to trade.
…

This is entirely true - just buying the goods legally gives several times the hourly profit *even in systems where piracy is legal* because there are no ways to extract cargo from a ship with a remotely sensible defensive build

Both PvP piracy and PvE piracy pretty much rely on the existence of ships with no shields, extremely lucrative cargo, very stupid pilots, and no interference from the law.

Realistically, pirates (especially not the poorly equipped NPCs) just shouldn't exist. But it wouldn't be Elite without pirates, so...

 

[Siobhan]

Agreed and agreed.

Can you elucidate on the scales and potency thereof of said fart, just so I can get a relative timescale measure? Are we talking a small and relatively harmless "BRAP", or the "lingering death" that clears whole shopping aisles (yes really) as favored by my cousin Sarah?

Could be either depending on the offence., 7 minutes to 7 days...

At the very least they could use traditional English outlaw states... any bounty lasts a minimum of a year and a day. If you can avoid capture/death that long then you were usually free - with exceptions of course.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

OK look. If a life of crime is more work for less fun and payoff than honest trading, then why do it? People claim to want realism in this game, yet somehow they want the pirate life to be a glorious romanticised Hollywood vision of piracy.

Look at it from the other side. What fun is it to a trader (particularly a newbie) to have their cargo stolen?

Anyone claiming to want realism in the game should be demanding the complete removal of pirates, bounty hunters and combat ranks from the game, because the system authority ships (even in 2.4) and basic economics makes the existence of piracy completely unrealistic and therefore the need for private pilots to carry weapons or collect on non-existent bounties unnecessary.

They might as well, because your second quoted paragraph makes clear that (large parts of) the player base would never accept NPC pirates who were actually capable of either destroying them or stealing their cargo. If they're just going to show up to be slaughtered or easily evaded then they might as well be taken out altogether to save everyone some time.

 

[Marra Morgan]

- Pirate are the worst scum in the universe, evil criminal.

Flattery won't make me demand less, y'know! ( Well, ok, it will )

Pirates are traders that simply too dumb to just buy that stuff they want to trade.
…

And our victims are traders that are simply too dumb to high-wake...

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I think you're missing the point?

PvP piracy is already nigh on is a joke? Even if you want to do it as "nicely" as possible, not even denting the victim and simply pick their pocket, not only has this gameplay been made duller (point and click), it's basically impossible to get a reasonable amount of cargo too.

hahaha lol what? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, that it must have escaped your notice Neil, because you're not normally this stupid. With "piracy" currently meaning "guarenteed rebuy 90% of the time" in the current climate of gaming in OPEN - who on earth would CHOOSE to fly a large and lucrative cargo in OPEN?

Nobody - nobody with anything to lose anyway. Only a bored billionaire trader might - who will also have all the skills to get it through, regardless.

You did it to yourselves that there's *points to cue the Texan I keep in the corner of the room for just such occasions* "slim pickins in these here parts".

Let's consider what we even have with the above scenario too? Periodically, a CMDR carry X hundred tons of cargo, might be interedicted, and might have a dozen tons of that cargo stolen. Is that really a significant loss/cost? Meanwhile the pirate doing this, now has to potentially spend even more time flying from X to Y to simply pay off a bounty, to had in that dozen tons of cargo.

A dozen tonnes to YOU - what about the other scavengers down the line, how many jumps is that trader doing? Can you PROVE that even if you only took a dozen tonnes that YOU ARE THE ONLY PIRATE TO GRAB HIM?

Will they also only demand a dozen tonnes or maybe they think "hmm, he's carrying 300 tonnes (or was) he can afford to lose FIFTY"

and another interdiction - because there's lots of pirates and scant few victims - "Arrrgh, matey be carryin 250 tonies" (this RP pirate is both authentic and illiterate) "I be takin' (he drops his g's too) 10% of that - so drop 7 tonies" (he can't do maths either).

by now said trader is pretty peed off and tells the next pirate to shove it up his cannon hole - and gets killed - and quits open for cargo runs.

The naivete you're showing is staggering... I take it back - you can be that slow witted sometimes.

Go read Hemingways "Old man and the sea" - you'll learn a thing or two.

It just seems a poorly paid/supported game mechanic is just getting more penalised. ie: I suspect the added faff will be enough to kill off even more people doing it. And the outcome? A good one?

Even if you managed to get together all the known pierates, have a parlay and reach a "we will play nice" consensus, it won't account for those who DGAF.

Besides which the damage is done, it'll be a long time before the numbers of free traders in OPEN mean there's enough for everybody to make a living.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… Seems completely unwilling to see the bigger picture of how different professions can and should bounce off each other for the greater good of the game. …

What bigger picture? There is no bigger picture.

Currently there is no crime in this game.
There are no real consequences for being a criminal that are more than a mild inconvenience. There are absolutely no in-game reasons to become a pirate (PvE or PvP).
There is no PvP piracy in this game, it's RP begging or salt mining and maybe a few who try to use hatch breaker limpets for no in-game reason.

With the C&P update in 3.0 some slight and easily avoidable consequences are added.
Is it really so terrible to jump to the next system and be clean like a newborn after getting a bounty in one of ten thousands of systems? Not to mention that you can go to the next low security system and pay off that fine or bounty if you want.

If there is a bigger picture, then it's that players want to play "criminals" but without any consequences.

Unless you believe in the "trader - piracy - bounty hunter" eco system illusion (there is absolutely nothing in this game that supports such a system), the C&P system is just flavoring for PvE - like everything in this game.
And even if there was such an eco system, then you would want more and harsher consequences (higher bounties) for piracy.

Sure, things could be much better with complex and detailed connected gameplay mechanics. We just don't have these things in this game.

Take what you got and try to make the best of it. That's all you will get (for a long time).

 

[Marra Morgan]

What bigger picture? There is no bigger picture.

Currently there is no crime in this game.
There are no real consequences for being a criminal that are more than a mild inconvenience. There are absolutely no in-game reasons to become a pirate (PvE or PvP).
There is no PvP piracy in this game, it's RP begging or salt mining and maybe a few who try to use hatch breaker limpets for no in-game reason.

And at that point I became convinced that you're clueless on this subject.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

And at that point I became convinced that you're clueless on this subject.

What consequences, consequences that are more than mildly inconvenient, are in this game for being a criminal?
What reasons are in this game for being a pirate?

 

[nosscar]

I quite like the new c&p system.
I think it will promote more open play, and avoiding anarchy, whilst being safer in the protected systems.
Pirate's will need to be skilled, so better gameplay for them.

This could encourage players to return. I might even give beta a try to brush up on my pilot skill, after not playing for a long time.

 

[Marra Morgan]

What consequences, consequences that are more than mildly inconvenient, are in this game for being a criminal?
What reasons are in this game for being a pirate?

It is fun

I need no other reason.

 

[Ouberos]

Flattery won't make me demand less, y'know! ( Well, ok, it will )



And our victims are traders that are simply too dumb to high-wake...

I can't currently rep you again but here's a virtual +2!

And yes there does seem to be a general ignorance on the subject of Piracy and the upcoming changes. It's almost as if some of these people have never done anything other than blindly go from one port to another in a private group.

 

[NeilF]

What bigger picture? There is no bigger picture.

Currently there is no crime in this game.
There are no real consequences for being a criminal that are more than a mild inconvenience. There are absolutely no in-game reasons to become a pirate (PvE or PvP).
There is no PvP piracy in this game, it's RP begging or salt mining and maybe a few who try to use hatch breaker limpets for no in-game reason.

With the C&P update in 3.0 some slight and easily avoidable consequences are added.
Is it really so terrible to jump to the next system and be clean like a newborn after getting a bounty in one of ten thousands of systems? Not to mention that you can go to the next low security system and pay off that fine or bounty if you want.

If there is a bigger picture, then it's that players want to play "criminals" but without any consequences.

Unless you believe in the "trader - piracy - bounty hunter" eco system illusion (there is absolutely nothing in this game that supports such a system), the C&P system is just flavoring for PvE - like everything in this game.
And even if there was such an eco system, then you would want more and harsher consequences (higher bounties) for piracy.

Sure, things could be much better with complex and detailed connected gameplay mechanics. We just don't have these things in this game.

Take what you got and try to make the best of it. That's all you will get (for a long time).

Sorry, you're just preaching again, rather than having a meaningful discussion.

I mean when you state, players want to play "criminals" but without any consequences, I just sort of give up on trying to see what you're saying?

I'm all up for consequences, and I suspect most people (except murder-hobos) are. So let's just discuss was useful/meaningful/fair consequences are best?

*sigh*

 

[NeilF]

I quite like the new c&p system.
I think it will promote more open play, and avoiding anarchy, whilst being safer in the protected systems.
Pirate's will need to be skilled, so better gameplay for them.

This could encourage players to return. I might even give beta a try to brush up on my pilot skill, after not playing for a long time.

Yes, my small concern about no longer being able to hand in CG cargo at a CG station is hopefully half put to bed. So I'm less concerned now:-
- Illegal cargo can be handed in at black market (even if facilities are denied to you): I would like confirmation on this though. If the black market is also denied, then eeeaak!
- If you have no access to station facilities, then you should be able to sell legal cargo in the Black Market (instead) at a lower price. See here - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...cilities-sell-LEGAL-cargo-on-the-Black-Market


The premise of not having station facilities and having to things (repair/reammo) elsewhere seems fair enough.

 

[Han_Zen]

I quite like the new c&p system.
I think it will promote more open play, and avoiding anarchy, whilst being safer in the protected systems.
Pirate's will need to be skilled, so better gameplay for them.

This could encourage players to return. I might even give beta a try to brush up on my pilot skill, after not playing for a long time.

Just add some goodies that draws traders Anarchy systems and it will be fine. Add some nasty NPC pirates to these systems and spawn fewer of them in open.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

And at that point I became convinced that you're clueless on this subject.

Cite your reasons, otherwise it looks like you've just said the above in the manner of "you don't know what you are talking about" - right before flouncing off.

The well recognised tactic of someone who's lost an arguement, but doesn't have the courage to admit it.

 

[Ouberos]

Pirate's will need to be skilled, so better gameplay for them.

We already are chum. That's why we don't fly from one point to another hauling Biowaste or Economy class passengers or whatever the current max credits per hour exploit is.

As a reward for actually playing the game what we get are persistent bugs, condoned cheating and some more hurdles to jump over.

Yet when some folks suggest development time is focused on clogging or ironing out bugs they get shouted down by a minority who don't even engage with the wider community but prefer hiding in private groups. To be fair, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed after some of the sweeping statements about dumb pirates.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

It is fun

I need no other reason.

That's why I wrote about in-game reasons.