[Crime and Punishment] Why ATR ships will be useless?

[Kyokushin]

I heard how it will work.

They will be powerful, but not enough. Nobody will care of it, because everyone will no bother of shooting to NPC. Low wake and bye.

How killing cmdr is working now?
- it need to be done in 15s before he menulogged, its achievable in a case of one ganking ship
- it can be done in few seconds with any ship, by wing of four gankers. Why few seconds? To not give a time to combat log a victim.

Why piracy is dead in game?
- Because nobody sane will bother of someone else cargo when is able to do 500mln/hour by passenger money exploit. Zero effort, no risk.


When these ships can be useful then:
- they need to have so much DPS to strongdly damage a bad guy ship, it should be done in few seconds. A possibly bad guy need to have one quick decision to made about running, and running should not be always possible. Like in the station case. A wing of ATR ships with extremely high DPS, good speed and mass lock factor at least of FAS.
- they need to appear in instantion in few seconds when a crime is detected and they should defend a victim.
- they need to patrol high security systems to create safe zones/passages

 

[Wylie28]

Thats actually thier purpose. To make you stop assualting someone. The devs have said more than once they arent there for killing you but for stopping you from killing. And i agree. And the current livestream showed 10 seconds. If anything they need a little delayed.

As far piracy being dead i have a few qualms about that.

#1. Piracy rewards are credits. Something that can easily be scaled. The consequence system however is a game mechanic. You cannot scale it with out redesigning it. The logical way, both proper and optimal use of time, to fix crime is to first create the punishment system that gives proper consequences. Then scale rewards later. So "killing" is actually good. It means so far they are on track with not wasting our time.

#2. Piracy is stealing good from people. Pirates DO NOT KILL thier target but rather disable them. Pirates are after money not becoming famous criminals. They maximize profits while minimize the attention of the authorities. None of the changes affect pirates, only murderers. So this particular change hasnt done anything to kill piracy. Piracy isnt rewarding. Adding more consequences, especially to murder, doesn't make it less or more so.

#3. If you want to be a pirate be a pirate. You do not need to have optimal credit rewards at all times. You do not need optimal credit rewards ever. Ive spend all of my game time ignoring the rewards and did no grinding of any kind. And i have a fully fit and engineer Exploration Conda, Combat FDL, and Multi-Purpose Python. I also have quite a few other ships but they still have some work to be done. Its a game. Play it to have fun. The game isn't going anywhere an hasnt been there for almost your entire life. Why do you need to have end game stuff asap?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

#2. Piracy is stealing good from people. Pirates DO NOT KILL thier target but rather disable them. Pirates are after money not becoming famous criminals.

1) This whole "pirates are really nice people who don't kill" is new to Elite Dangerous - in the previous three games, blowing up traders and scooping up cargo from the wreckage was what they did. The current NPC pirates are perfectly happy to keep going for that approach even though it doesn't work, because most of them don't carry hatchbreakers and they aren't allowed to subtarget cargo hatches.

2) Even accepting that Frontier were probably right to encourage extortion and theft rather than murder as the piracy mechanism, to try get a more varied PvP game ... there are plenty of ships pirates should be killing - the bounty hunters who come after them. Imagine how boring it would be if you were in a RES, opened fire on a pirate, and they immediately boosted out of the ring to hyperspace because "pirates don't kill people". (There was a 2.1 beta where they ran away very effectively when losing. It was not popular.)

...for that matter, imagine how tough it would be to make a living as a bounty hunter if the RES pirates only had a few trivial assault and theft bounties for a few thousand credits. (Reminds me of 1.1, that)

At least in the new version with non-expiring bounties the pirates might actually have a bounty on their head if it's been more than 10 minutes since they saw a trader, I guess... so some improvement there.

 

[Kyokushin]

Thats actually thier purpose. To make you stop assualting someone. The devs have said more than once they arent there for killing you but for stopping you from killing. And i agree. And the current livestream showed 10 seconds. If anything they need a little delayed.

As far piracy being dead i have a few qualms about that.

#1. Piracy rewards are credits. Something that can easily be scaled. The consequence system however is a game mechanic. You cannot scale it with out redesigning it. The logical way, both proper and optimal use of time, to fix crime is to first create the punishment system that gives proper consequences. Then scale rewards later. So "killing" is actually good. It means so far they are on track with not wasting our time.

#2. Piracy is stealing good from people. Pirates DO NOT KILL thier target but rather disable them. Pirates are after money not becoming famous criminals. They maximize profits while minimize the attention of the authorities. None of the changes affect pirates, only murderers. So this particular change hasnt done anything to kill piracy. Piracy isnt rewarding. Adding more consequences, especially to murder, doesn't make it less or more so.

#3. If you want to be a pirate be a pirate. You do not need to have optimal credit rewards at all times. You do not need optimal credit rewards ever. Ive spend all of my game time ignoring the rewards and did no grinding of any kind. And i have a fully fit and engineer Exploration Conda, Combat FDL, and Multi-Purpose Python. I also have quite a few other ships but they still have some work to be done. Its a game. Play it to have fun. The game isn't going anywhere an hasnt been there for almost your entire life. Why do you need to have end game stuff asap?

They will not stop me or make me slower. I can with friends gank almost any ship below 10 seconds. Job will be done before they appear and they will be unable to even interdict me (relative mouse interdiction is unstoppable, thank you frontier for breaking another element of game)

Piracy:
#1 i will do a piracy if it will be worth my time risk and effort
#2 pirates sometimes killing people do not leave the witnesses.
#3 i do not care about being pirate. I can be if it will be smart, engaging and profitable, if not, then not. I like go be a murderer and i am feeding with a salt of your tears. Its a game, Its fun for me.

Entire pirate job need to be done in few seconds, before a victim will combat log. End of story about pirating.

 

[StiTch]

Until FD revisit fundamental mechanics such as tracking targets, facilitating PvP bounty hunting and containing CLing, pretty much all C&P will achieve little more than making what players consider "legitimate" PvP nigh on impossible and barely touching murder.

Murder of the innocents is the only of the playstyles you can drop in, kill a target in a few seconds flat, and make a beeline out of there. Any playstyle such as piracy that requires skill and patience will be affected by the ATR on the other hand. Surely I cannot be the only one to have identified this?

 

[Kyokushin]

Until FD revisit fundamental mechanics such as tracking targets, facilitating PvP bounty hunting and containing CLing, pretty much all C&P will achieve little more than making what players consider "legitimate" PvP nigh on impossible and barely touching murder.

Murder of the innocents is the only of the playstyles you can drop in, kill a target in a few seconds flat, and make a beeline out of there. Any playstyle such as piracy that requires skill and patience will be affected by the ATR on the other hand. Surely I cannot be the only one to have identified this?

Its about time. You have few seconds before a folk will combat log. If you have a good gank wing then he will have no time to push a scripted button on keyboard.

 

[StiTch]

Its about time. You have few seconds before a folk will combat log. If you have a good gank wing then he will have no time to push a scripted button on keyboard.

And to be fair, this applies to PvP bounty hunting too. There are less reputable murderers that will CL to avoid their own justice, especially from a competent PvP ship.

The only actions affected purely by time-based reinforcements is anything that requires skill and patience.

 

[Kyokushin]

And to be fair, this applies to PvP bounty hunting too. There are less reputable murderers that will CL to avoid their own justice, especially from a competent PvP ship.

The only actions affected purely by time-based reinforcements is anything that requires skill and patience.

Of course yes.
ATR need to do a job faster than anyone pull the CLog button. We can, they also should.

 

[StiTch]

Of course yes.
ATR need to do a job faster than anyone pull the CLog button. We can, they also should.

I think my point is that ATR isn't the solution.

Put bluntly, you cannot stop a CMDR making a single murder if the victim is under defended and doesn't make escape attempts. The security response could be super harsh and practically instantaneous and you still wouldn't stop it. Many murder victims can be destroyed in a couple of seconds flat; there's nothing in game that can intervene in that, and arguably shouldn't. It's up to all players to make a concession between survivability and convenience, and to have the skills needed to survive in - and quoting FD here - a "cutthroat galaxy".

All ATRs will do is intervene in piracy or other criminal activities that are seen as the "positive" criminal activities by the community.

The correct response is not to pretend we can bubble wrap everyone from being murdered, but to bring reasonable consequence on a murderer. And that won't happen through a single police intervention; it requires a facilitation of mechanics that make it possible to hunt that CMDR down and kill them.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'd love it if ATR became a persistent NPC that followed you as you jumped about. So, if you high wake, the ATR would wake scan and follow, popping up in a cat and mouse game of wits. Imagine if you were docked, and an ATR ship was docked with you.....you undock and so does the ATR...

They would become a nemesis in essence, like a snakes tail chasing you all over and not disparaging until you die.

 

[Kyokushin]

I'd love it if ATR became a persistent NPC that followed you as you jumped about. So, if you high wake, the ATR would wake scan and follow, popping up in a cat and mouse game of wits. Imagine if you were docked, and an ATR ship was docked with you.....you undock and so does the ATR...

They would become a nemesis in essence, like a snakes tail chasing you all over and not disparaging until you die.

And what will result from it?
If they pull me, then i will low wake. If they attack me, then i will low wake. If they interdict me, then i will avoid it. We can do not give a care of ATR entirely. They do not need to be annoying. They need to be extremely deadly.

 

[Toumal]

And the current livestream showed 10 seconds. If anything they need a little delayed.

A typical gank is over in 10 seconds, less if you run anything smaller than a python with full shields, and the perpetrator can jump away before your explosion animation is over. Your suggestion would practically ensure that the current situation is perpetuated.

ATR ships need to respond within 10 seconds at the longest, and they need to be able to masslock everyone. They should of course only appear for people with high notoriety and in systems with an appropriate security level. I also maintain that they need to be able to intervene directly after jumping in, instead of just flying around for a minute until they can get a scan in.

 

[Rennard]

And what will result from it?
If they pull me, then i will low wake. If they attack me, then i will low wake. If they interdict me, then i will avoid it. We can do not give a care of ATR entirely. They do not need to be annoying. They need to be extremely deadly.

Well you certainly won't be "ganking" other players while the ATR are hunting you, so it would be very effective.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And what will result from it?
If they pull me, then i will low wake. If they attack me, then i will low wake. If they interdict me, then i will avoid it. We can do not give a care of ATR entirely. They do not need to be annoying. They need to be extremely deadly.

Thats the whole point, they become a nuisance that persistently follows you, wearing you down. What if they are better at interdicting (and FD dial up the security interdiction difficulty?) These guys should be like NPC gankers, you low wake they nab you soon after again.

The only way for ATR to do what you want is for them to one shot you and be in your instance almost instantly. If they are persistent then you are hounded, so you can't commit more crime.

 

[Kyokushin]

Well you certainly won't be "ganking" other players while the ATR are hunting you, so it would be very effective.

I will as i am doing it now when police and other players want to pull me out. When i will focus on ganking, then i will focus my team on victim. Interdict, few seconds, job done, low wake. Thats how ganking works. ATR may be only a bit annoying. If they will not destroy me or strongly damage my ship in few seconds, IF they catch me, then i can do not care, as i can do not care of anyone else now.

Idea is good, i just spotted weak points from my proffesion perspective.

 

[Rennard]

Thats the whole point, they become a nuisance that persistently follows you, wearing you down. What if they are better at interdicting (and FD dial up the security interdiction difficulty?) These guys should be like NPC gankers, you low wake they nab you soon after again.

The only way for ATR to do what you want is for them to one shot you and be in your instance almost instantly. If they are persistent then you are hounded, so you can't commit more crime.

Add to this the only method of long term evasion of the ATR is to go outside their jurisdiction (aka Anarchy Systems) and they effectively force the gankers out of secure space until they clear their name/notoriety.

 

[Rennard]

...Idea is good, i just spotted weak points from my proffesion perspective.

Since when is Ganking a profession?
Its Griefing as recognised by FDev and is for people that get off on ruining other peoples game.

 

[Kyokushin]

Since when is Ganking a profession?
Its Griefing as recognised by FDev and is for people that get off on ruining other peoples game.

I ganked on Jameson in beta 2 of 2014. People are doing it, so its an proffession. But if you want go to displacement....

Should i make some sig with "...ganking since 3310 (or whatever)"

 

[Rennard]

I ganked on Jameson in beta 2 of 2014.

Should i make some sig with "...ganking since 3310"

That you can openly admit (and even brag) to ganking right here on the forum and take no consequences says a lot about how serious FDev are about stopping the practice.

 

[Kyokushin]

That you can openly admit (and even brag) to ganking right here on the forum and take no consequences says a lot about how serious FDev are about stopping the practice.

Sure, why not?
I am also doing other things. Blowing up other comanders is thats what i paid for and thats was advertised on main product page. Blaze Your own trial!