So let me get this straight...

[sb413197]

It is almost entertaining to watch Ed realize during the livestream that about half of the player base hates the changes. It does make you wonder if they have a handle on the feedback, not just what's being said, but also how many are saying it.

I think the central problem is social media. Places like this very forum, and Reddit.

David Braben plays this game. He should make the decisions on which way to take it, based on how much he enjoys currently playing the game and what he thinks should change. We will then end up with a coherent vision and progress. Currently the asylum is being run by the inmates.

 

[Manticore]

I'm confused.
Title says "get it straight", and the post got it all wrong...

??

Yeah; attribution error by the OP. Very tedious and unenterprising. Must be a "casual gamer".

 

[Darty]

I didn't see the stream but you know what? I knew that the material broker requirements for trading upwards would be utterly insane because it's abundantly clear that the very first golden unbreakable rule for engineering is 'it must take a lot of time'. If anybody is now going to say 'oh wait to see if it's more reasonable in the beta' lol OK - bookmark this post.

I mean given that you're still at the total mercy of RNG when collecting any materials, you'd think that the requirements for trading up would be sensible, say 3 x grade 1 mats for a grade 2, 4 x grade 2 mats for a grade 3, 5 x grade 3 for a grade 4 and 5 x grade 4 mats for a grade 5. Hell, go crazy and make it 10 x grade 4s for a grade 5 if the new grade 5 will be really epic. From the above though, I assume the stream showed 50 of something for a trade-up, if we're talking about getting 2 of them for a full storage allocation under the 100-per-material system?

And then Sandy said something about respecting our time, right? :x



Oh my days. Literally howling here.

They only showed grade 1 to 2, but I think it will be the same for every grade. It was 6 to 1 going from a lower grade to a higher, and 1 to 3 going from a higher grade to a lower. Finally something to do with my 47 mef (this is after doing a ton of overcharge rolls btw. It was at 70 at one point). I think 9 cif from each mef is fair enough.

I'm not too sure if this will save time or not. The current system requires a lot of time for several reasons.

• a lot of grade 5 rolls are required to get a good roll
• It's really hard to find certain materials and data, while other's are everywhere
• it's next to impossible to collect materials as you go about your daily business because you will so quickly fill up your storage
• (sometimes) you need 3 g3 rolls and 3 g4 rolls to regain rep after adding an experimental effect unless you get really lucky
• you have to travel hundreds of light years to the engineer every time you want to do an upgrade

The new system will address all of these, but a and d will be countered by the large material cost for an experimental and the requirement to go from g1-g5 incrementally with "2-5" rolls per grade (on the livestream both upgrades they did took 5 rolls to get to the next grade lol). On average it will take 17-18 rolls to get a max tier 5, but half of them will be with really easy to get materials. If you are just looking for cheap g5 rolls than this will definitely be worse, but if you are looking to get great 5g rolls the new system will probably break even with the old in terms of the cost of a modification.

So the only really decreases in engineering time will come from points b, c, and e. b probably won't be that big of a decrease, since you will be trading materials at a loss, but it will be a nice change. e falls into the same boat; it's a major qol improvement but only a minor decrease in the time requirement.

Its point c and how the changes in material storage will synergize with the trader that I'm the most interested in. In the past week I've killed about 400 powerplay ships. If I had brought along limpets, I would be getting about 12 materials per ship. That's 4,800 materials. The same could be applied to bounty hunting, mining, cz hunting. If you are an explorer and you are hunting for jumptonium you can pick up the ton of unrelated materials that also drop while surface prospecting and use those later for engineering or trade them in for more useful elements. We will essentially be able to get a massive *passive* material income for minuscule changes in out play style.

I don't claim that this income will solve everything, and I certainly have my doubts, but I don't think it's something we should overlook.

 

[kofeyh]

You know what keyword 'seem' implies, right?

Yes; I’m not sure the people who use it, quite grasp that, tho. It’s amazing how many people who haven’t really done something, are mystifyingly actual expects on the topic though.

I’m sure it will all be fine. Yep.

 

[babelfisch]

Yes; I’m not sure the people who use it, quite grasp that, tho. It’s amazing how many people who haven’t really done something, are mystifyingly actual expects on the topic though.

I’m sure it will all be fine. Yep.

I don't trust anyones opinion on this forum, regardless if they prefer the old or the new system or how much "experience" they have. Most people providing feedback would absolutely suck at game design and that probably includes me. Don't tell me that I need to be an "expert" in engineering to know if I will like the changes or not.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes; I’m not sure the people who use it, quite grasp that, tho. It’s amazing how many people who haven’t really done something, are mystifyingly actual expects on the topic though.

I’m sure it will all be fine. Yep.

What's wrong with people being optimistic?

If you will be proven right - good for you.

But if I will enjoy Engineers 2.0 in beta - will you dismiss it also because it will be just beta, just first hours, etc?

It is highly possible for you not to like, and for me like it. Like, people can have different opinions about something.

 

[Funny]

Lol, I even think he realized that he hates the new system too.

Was funny to see his disappointment when he rolled that G2 mod and the bar moved for hardly 1%

Ah, yeah that was glorious XD

If they change the balance to be a guaranteed 3x rolls max to be able to advance a rank, and a guaranted 10x rolls max to max a rank I think we’d all be happy. Well, that, and:
- Have something to cater to the people who currently just do ~1.2 grade 5 rolls on average per module (the ‘casual’ crowd - I myself am one of them depending on the modification/ship)
- Address the issue of non-gameplay - like wake scans - being forced on people in order for them to get mats, and the grouping of all materials from a single instance or a source (i.e. ships and possibly things like meteorites etc as well?)
- Address the issue of gameplay being forced on people that nobody really engaged in before for good reason, like killing trading ships for mats...
- Do something about the complete randomness of signal sources. I really like the idea of a honk and/or nav beacon scans exposing permanent signal sources, albeit in addition to the random ones, and with the permanent ones refreshing once in a while and thus requiring a re-honk or a re-scan. Honestly, if this gets done, my third point becomes mute because those mats mentioned can be find in signal sources as well.

I don’t honestly expect the last two to be addressed this update, but the first can, especially the second, probably can and should be fixed (though maybe not the mats grouping? It really would change a lot though).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I never really wanted much change to the Engineers, except a bit more logical control over secondary and special effects.

I only had issues with the material cap and gathering....

I don't have access to beta, so I'm going to be walking in to this one pretty blind...

I don't have any god rolls though. Not sure of that matters. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[babelfisch]

I never really wanted much change to the Engineers, except a bit more logical control over secondary and special effects.

I only had issues with the material cap and gathering....

I don't have access to beta, so I'm going to be walking in to this one pretty blind...

I don't have any god rolls though. Not sure of that matters. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Beta is open to everyone.

 

[Funny]

What's wrong with people being optimistic?

If you will be proven right - good for you.

But if I will enjoy Engineers 2.0 in beta - will you dismiss it also because it will be just beta, just first hours, etc?

It is highly possible for you not to like, and for me like it. Like, people can have different opinions about something.

Yip, I get that! I personally just come here to be heard (though so does everyone else), and to change some people’s minds on things that don’t necessarily affect them, but do affect others. The current system is a massive downgrade in everyway to some people, rather large, but not world shattering downgrade to some other, for some simply an upgrade, and for some, like you, apparently a massive upgrade. Which is fine, it makes sense after all with how it is set up. But, the thing is, it wouldn’t take that much effort to fix it for the people for whom some or all aspects of the engineers went downhill, and it wouldn’t impact the people who like the current changes negatively when implemented properly.
I guess I’m just advocating for sympathy, and for people to see the pros and cons properly so that everyone can be happy over the changes to the engineers. Well, mostly everyone. I’m aware some people dislike the fundamental shift in approach to the philosophy behind engineering, but they should be a comparatively small number, at least compared to the 50-70% that dislike some of the changes to the engineers quite a lot (perhaps higher? Perhaps less - I don’t know, it’s about half at least though it would seem). That number could easily be reduced to 5% or lower though - which is why I’m confident posting my view here I guess? Though that is just based on my observations - I could be wrong, but I doubt it somewhat.

P.S.: I guess the only change I’m really referencing is the grade 1-5 progression thing. Though, it is worth understanding that for some that really, truly is a massive setback due to how they (occasionally) approach engineering simply wanting 1-3 rolls and being done (average is about 1.2-1.5 , I guess? That’s how it is for me anyway).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Beta is open to everyone.

Oh... Lol

Well it'll be over by the time my carrier pigeon interwebs have downloaded it.

Sadly, I jest.
It would be several days faster if I got a carrier pigeon with a memory stick to fly to FD HQ for the files. Lol
Heck, even by post would be faster then my internet.

Or message in a bottle.

 

[jasonbarron]

I haven't followed the proposed changes very closely, but from what I'm hearing in this thread I'd say people who are even remotely interested in PvP have good reason to feel a chill of disquiet; if previous secondaries are grandfathered in without a means to unequivocally obtain a roll as good or better, the new system will be a major fail. To the extent that I would just uninstall the game from my hard drive kind of fail.

If it turns out that we have a means to easily obtain secondaries similar in potency to before, then crisis averted. Probably the most ominous thing I'm seeing here is the frightening amount of PvE players who barely know what a secondary is much less what is possible on the higher end rolls, and if Fdev is listening to these people and relying on their input, it's going to be a disaster.

 

[Weps]

You do know that those who complain are always the loudest?
5000 people watched the stream. Maybe 50 people have written something in the chat. 20 wanted to say something about the engineers. 10 said 'Noooo!'.

Could have been 10... could have been 100, only Ed and his community team know. But it does strike me as odd that the dude felt the need to make a remark about it on livestream, when he could have... I don't know... just shut up about it?

However large or small, I'm sure that the number of livestream chat posters which booed the changes is insignificant compared to the number of active players. But I can't help thinking, "Ed's face says everything".

 

[andrak]

Is there anything they actually acted on in the feedback?

Seems the feedback forum is just mirroring the game giving the illusion of player agency.

Do what you want with engineers but for the sanity of the game do not grandfather modules from the old system.

Fastest way to demotivate people is for them to realise there are edge cases people are flying around with that they will now never be able to achieve. Just don't do it Fdev!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Could have been 10... could have been 100, only Ed and his community team know. But it does strike me as odd that the dude felt the need to make a remark about it on livestream, when he could have... I don't know... just shut up about it?

However large or small, I'm sure that the number of livestream chat posters which booed the changes is insignificant compared to the number of active players. But I can't help thinking, "Ed's face says everything".

Ed always look disappointed when players ask same questions over and over again even they are addressed. He doesn't enjoy meta - in fact no one outside that meta bubble does - so it shows.

I haven't followed the proposed changes very closely, but from what I'm hearing in this thread I'd say people who are even remotely interested in PvP have good reason to feel a chill of disquiet; if previous secondaries are grandfathered in without a means to unequivocally obtain a roll as good or better, the new system will be a major fail. To the extent that I would just uninstall the game from my hard drive kind of fail.

If it turns out that we have a means to easily obtain secondaries similar in potency to before, then crisis averted. Probably the most ominous thing I'm seeing here is the frightening amount of PvE players who barely know what a secondary is much less what is possible on the higher end rolls, and if Fdev is listening to these people and relying on their input, it's going to be a disaster.

PvP is very small fraction of player base.

Just to give you context to understand why FD might listen to PvE players more.

 

[Knightshark]

Is there anything they actually acted on in the feedback?

Seems the feedback forum is just mirroring the game giving the illusion of player agency.

Do what you want with engineers but for the sanity of the game do not grandfather modules from the old system.

Fastest way to demotivate people is for them to realise there are edge cases people are flying around with that they will now never be able to achieve. Just don't do it Fdev!

Exactly!

 

[sovapid]

I haven't followed the proposed changes very closely, but from what I'm hearing in this thread I'd say people who are even remotely interested in PvP have good reason to feel a chill of disquiet; if previous secondaries are grandfathered in without a means to unequivocally obtain a roll as good or better, the new system will be a major fail. To the extent that I would just uninstall the game from my hard drive kind of fail.

If it turns out that we have a means to easily obtain secondaries similar in potency to before, then crisis averted. Probably the most ominous thing I'm seeing here is the frightening amount of PvE players who barely know what a secondary is much less what is possible on the higher end rolls, and if Fdev is listening to these people and relying on their input, it's going to be a disaster.

From what I saw in the stream, it looked bad.

Using Rail Guns as an example, which werent shown on stream, so this is some guessing.

The secondary effects are now available as a "purchasable" add on.

Don't know if it will be a purchasable secondary, but seems reasonable that heat reduction would be one.

However, only one secondary effect can be applied.

So under the new system you could choose between heat reduction and a special effect like Super Pen, but could not have both.

Looking like weapons will be the most problematic under the new system with grandfathering. Since the old secondary effects are now in the same list to choose from with the special effects. Can only have a secondary or special, not both.

Wondering if all my weapons are considered "edge cases".

 

[jasonbarron]

From what I saw in the stream, it looked bad.

Using Rail Guns as an example, which werent shown on stream, so this is some guessing.

The secondary effects are now available as a "purchasable" add on.

Don't know if it will be a purchasable secondary, but seems reasonable that heat reduction would be one.

However, only one secondary effect can be applied.

So under the new system you could choose between heat reduction and a special effect like Super Pen, but could not have both.

Looking like weapons will be the most problematic under the new system with grandfathering. Since the old secondary effects are now in the same list to choose from with the special effects. Can only have a secondary or special, not both.

Wondering if all my weapons are considered "edge cases".

Well, that sounds pretty damning to be honest. If that is truly the case, it should be mandatory to remove all previous secondary rolls from the game.

 

[sovapid]

PvP is very small fraction of player base.

Just to give you context to understand why FD might listen to PvE players more.

Yes, but PVE players cry a lot louder when killed by a "super engineered pvp death machine". Don't see how making better engineering unobtainable in a new system will have PVE players respond any better.

 

[Knightshark]

Well, that sounds pretty damning to be honest. If that is truly the case, it should be mandatory to remove all previous secondary rolls from the game.

There are 1000s posts asking for this stacking up in the feedback forum for almost two months now. I don't think anything significant changes in beta.