Engineering : A compromise to prevent having to "grind" G1 --> G5 on every new module?

Summary
Under Beyond, if you engineer a module which was created under the previous Engineer mechanics, it's converted ("Grand Fathered") to the highest level of the next Grade down. So re-Engineer a G4 module generated last year, it will give a top level G3 module.

The following suggestion simply offers this same approach for new modules, if you've previously Engineered that same sort of module before.

Suggestion
Clearly people are possibly not enjoying the prospect that with each and every new module they have to G1-->G5 it.

So I wonder if a compromise might be, if you've already got modules of the same size/type (onboard, on another ship, in storage - ie: You've engineered one before), which are a higher grade of engineered than the one you're currently engineering, then you have an option available to "Clone Existing".

If you take this option it then lists all the other ones you have (which are higher than your current one), showing their grades etc, and if you select one it then simply rolls your module at the highest grade at the grade below the one you're cloning (ie: The same as the "Grand Father" mechanic)? No side effects would not be considered etc.

So if you were engineering a new FSD, and you had other ones of the same size, you could choose to "Clone" a G5 one, and your new one would be rolled at highest G4 level. Thus meaning you've at least jumped up to a fairly high level with it. I'd suggest the "cost" for doing this would be the material cost of that roll level, so in this example it would cost the materials for a G4 roll.

In this way, at least if you've ever engineered a similar weapon/module before you can jump a long way up the grades on a new one.



Note: I'm sure there's there's more ifs/buts about this proposal, but it seems a possible compromise?

Note: If you consider at the moment, the wise thing to do in preparation for the new forced G1-->G5 mechanics, is to simply buy lots of modules and do a single G5 roll on them, and store them. Then come the new mechanics, you can level them up through G5 at your leisure. BUT, with the above mechanic, you can achieve exactly the same (all via the new mechancis), in a sensible way!



ADDITIONAL SUGGESTION
So you have a Grade 5 "Long Range" beam laser. And you want to try an "Efficient" beam laser. As the weapon in question is G5 you're allowed (once again using the same Grand Father mechanic) to change it to "Efficient" so it will become a top G4 "Efficient" beam laser now. You can then roll it up through G5.

So add the two suggestions above together - Imagine you have a G5 "Long Range" beam laser. And you want to keep it, but also create a new G5 "Efficient" Beam Laser. You would do the following:-
1) Clone your existing G5 "Long Range" beam laser onto a brand new beam laser (Grand Father mechanic) so it would become a top level G4.
2) You would do a single G5 roll on it. Because then...
3) You would convert it to "Efficient" (Grand Father mechanic) so it would become a top level G4 ("Efficient").
4) You would now roll it up through G5.

You now have your original Grade 5 "Long Range" beam laser and a new G5 "Efficient" beam laser.

And more importantly you have more time to play the game, and more will to live!


ps: Personally I'd suggest this "convert" option should use a version of the Grandfather Mechanic where it lowers it down to the lower grade of it's current grade. NOT, the highest level of the next lower grade. A subtle difference, making things a little slicker.
 
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I don't say this glibly but have you watched last night's stream?

Sandro made it pretty obvious that he's committed to the idea of people gradually carrying out upgrades as and when they locate the required mat's.

Frankly, I think there's more chance of convincing my dog to guard a plate of sausages than there is of convincing players to upgrade their ships gradually.

Given the way that the mat' broker is intended to work (trading-down 1xG5 mat' for 3xG4 mat's etc), all that's likely to happen is that people will farm high-tier mat's that are fairly easy to find and then trade-down for all the intermediate mat's they require to get a G5 upgrade in one hit.

Complete waste of time and effort developing this, I'm afraid. [sad]
 
I don't say this glibly but have you watched last night's stream?

Sandro made it pretty obvious that he's committed to the idea of people gradually carrying out upgrades as and when they locate the required mat's.

Frankly, I think there's more chance of convincing my dog to guard a plate of sausages than there is of convincing players to upgrade their ships gradually.

Given the way that the mat' broker is intended to work (trading-down 1xG5 mat' for 3xG4 mat's etc), all that's likely to happen is that people will farm high-tier mat's that are fairly easy to find and then trade-down for all the intermediate mat's they require to get a G5 upgrade in one hit.

Complete waste of time and effort developing this, I'm afraid. [sad]

I know what you mean. But at least the above compromise means that for any module you've not done before, you will have to G1 --> G5 it. But should you then do the same module type/size again, you can at least use your previous Engineering experience/efforts for your new module, to get it to a very high level straight off.
 
I don't say this glibly but have you watched last night's stream?

Sandro made it pretty obvious that he's committed to the idea of people gradually carrying out upgrades as and when they locate the required mat's.

Frankly, I think there's more chance of convincing my dog to guard a plate of sausages than there is of convincing players to upgrade their ships gradually.

Given the way that the mat' broker is intended to work (trading-down 1xG5 mat' for 3xG4 mat's etc), all that's likely to happen is that people will farm high-tier mat's that are fairly easy to find and then trade-down for all the intermediate mat's they require to get a G5 upgrade in one hit.

Complete waste of time and effort developing this, I'm afraid. [sad]

Exactly this. The new system is so bad, its literally wasted dev time to implement it. It doesnt improve anything. It fights against human nature, trying to force gradual upgrades that are not going to happen, and that people dont even WANT.

And it goes without saying that every ounce of feedback on the Lip Service Focused Feedback forum went utterly ignored. Not that there was any other plan; that forum was created to placate, not solicit feedback, obviously.
 
Or how about having enough favor with the engineer will allow you to spend some Favor to skip a step, like the "adjust" mechanic in current Engineering? Like you can spend some Favor to skip from T2 to T4.
 
Or how about having enough favor with the engineer will allow you to spend some Favor to skip a step, like the "adjust" mechanic in current Engineering? Like you can spend some Favor to skip from T2 to T4.

A myriad of alternatives have been proposed.

I'm simply trying to suggest a small "bolt-on" using an existing technique to take the edge of upgrading modules (which you've already upgraded and got).
 
Honestly Neilf, I don't have a strong opinion about it. I mean, your idea has merits and it would probably alleviate the grind but I'm so used to grinding now that I wouldn't probably even notice. :D
If it pleases the majority, sure, why not ? Either way, I'll grind grade 5+++ max over-über modules on every single ship I own anyway so ....
 
Honestly Neilf, I don't have a strong opinion about it. I mean, your idea has merits and it would probably alleviate the grind but I'm so used to grinding now that I wouldn't probably even notice. :D
If it pleases the majority, sure, why not ? Either way, I'll grind grade 5+++ max over-über modules on every single ship I own anyway so ....

All I can say is the premise of buying a new ship, and then having to grade 1->5 its FSD just seems so unnecessary not sure I could face it. The alternative is to of coruse module swap with another ship you already have...

But the game is creating such a hurdle having to G1->G5 that FSD, it's actually making you consider the faff and hassle of module swapping between ships over and over... All for what purpose/gain to the player?

If you could at least - if you've done such a module - use it to clone a new FSD, and thus miss out a lot (not all) of the "grind", that to me seems like a nice compromise...
 
I don't say this glibly but have you watched last night's stream?

Sandro made it pretty obvious that he's committed to the idea of people gradually carrying out upgrades as and when they locate the required mat's.

Frankly, I think there's more chance of convincing my dog to guard a plate of sausages than there is of convincing players to upgrade their ships gradually.

Given the way that the mat' broker is intended to work (trading-down 1xG5 mat' for 3xG4 mat's etc), all that's likely to happen is that people will farm high-tier mat's that are fairly easy to find and then trade-down for all the intermediate mat's they require to get a G5 upgrade in one hit.

Complete waste of time and effort developing this, I'm afraid. [sad]

It is for us experienced players, but for new players or players just starting with engineers it has a development path to follow, instead of something that is completely random and could be worse then the previous grade.
 
My suggestion is for Tech Brokers to sell standard G2 to G5 modules for a reasonable amount of resources.

To 'unlock' the access, you simple must already have unlock the grade with the relevant Engineer.

This bypass a lot of the click-grind if you want to go straight to a specific grade
 
My suggestion is for Tech Brokers to sell standard G2 to G5 modules for a reasonable amount of resources.

To 'unlock' the access, you simple must already have unlock the grade with the relevant Engineer.

This bypass a lot of the click-grind if you want to go straight to a specific grade

How is that any different to the engineer allowing you go straight to your max grade with them (as now), possibly just at an elevated price? ie: Why get the Tech Broker involved, as you'll only next have to possibly go the the Engineer to then work on it more?
 
It is for us experienced players, but for new players or players just starting with engineers it has a development path to follow, instead of something that is completely random and could be worse then the previous grade.

And what happens when those new players become experienced players?

From what we know this new system will be objectively better for roughly your first 20 mod's.
After that you'll need to find and spend roughly 20 extra mat's per mod'.
3 years in (2 proper years of playing), I have 35 ships, all fully modded, with a total of around 600 engineered modules (ignoring the 50-odd engineered modules I have stored).
That's roughly 12,000 extra mat's I'd have to collect under the new system, compared with the current one.

Can't see many new players being thrilled at the prospect of having to collect another 12,000 mat's more than I have.
 
Here is my compromise:

Have engineered AI spawn only in certain places and not randomly on players. People could at least play the game as before 2.1 and pick their own difficulty.

But what am I telling? It's not like this hasn't been suggested before.
 
Summary
Under Beyond, if you engineer a module which was created under the previous Engineer mechanics, it's converted ("Grand Fathered") to the highest level of the next Grade down. So re-Engineer a G4 module generated last year, it will give a top level G3 module.

The following suggestion simply offers this same approach for new modules, if you've previously Engineered that same sort of module before.

Suggestion
Clearly people are possibly not enjoying the prospect that with each and every new module they have to G1-->G5 it.

So I wonder if a compromise might be, if you've already got modules of the same size/type (onboard, on another ship, in storage - ie: You've engineered one before), which are a higher grade of engineered than the one you're currently engineering, then you have an option available to "Clone Existing".

If you take this option it then lists all the other ones you have (which are higher than your current one), showing their grades etc, and if you select one it then simply rolls your module at the highest grade at the grade below the one you're cloning (ie: The same as the "Grand Father" mechanic)? No side effects would not be considered etc.

So if you were engineering a new FSD, and you had other ones of the same size, you could choose to "Clone" a G5 one, and your new one would be rolled at highest G4 level. Thus meaning you've at least jumped up to a fairly high level with it.

In this way, at least if you've ever engineered a similar weapon/module before you can jump a long way up the grades on a new one.

Note: I'm sure there's there's more ifs/buts about this proposal, but it seems a possible compromise?


The minimum compromise that I think should be implemented is that if you have for example leveled up a powerplant with a particular engineer X to level 3, then you should be able to start from level 3 with other powerplants for other ships at that same engineer X.
If you want to level an fsd at that same engineer X, and never have done that before, then you start of course at level 1.
 
IMO, it's a good gameplay principle to have every grindy feature to become gradually easier as you progress. I would prefer that ease to come partially from your own skills and partially from gameplay mechanics (money, reputation, tools etc.).

OP's suggestion is a quick-fix to an existing too complex and messy system but surely a step in a good direction. But I don't have strong opinion about it.
 
Maybe a simpler alternative would be to offer a 'direct entry to highest unlocked mod level for this engineer' for a new module that is at a discount to modding all the way from 0, but still more (4-5x) than the initial mod at a new level when the previous level has been manually completed.

'Accelerated Modification' would do it for me.

However, I'm not sure that focusing on the flat material costs is the right comparison. Perhaps the materials/data traders will make it cheaper in terms of play time to attain a mod level, and leave less loot ignored in space.
 
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