New Crime & Punishment Will Be Broken If You Fly with CRIMES OFF

[Nightshady]

So based on a fight I had the other night, I think the new crime and punishment system will be broken for anyone who chooses to fly with CRIMES OFF. Here's what happened...

I was flying at CG, was not WANTED, and I had my REPORT CRIMES OFF. I get interdicted by a wing of two FDL's that were also not WANTED. I submit, and they proceed to open fire on me. I return fire, and because they had crimes on, I became WANTED. The cops show up and start shooting at me too. I end up killing both CMDR FDL's. Now, in the new system, if I understand it right, the next time I die I'm going to have to pay for a portion of their rebuys. How exactly is that right? I was attacked, but because I had CRIMES OFF, I now have to pay millions of credits for successfully defending myself?

Is this broken or am I not understanding it right?

 

[kofeyh]

So based on a fight I had the other night, I think the new crime and punishment system will be broken for anyone who chooses to fly with CRIMES OFF. Here's what happened...

I was flying at CG, was not WANTED, and I had my REPORT CRIMES OFF. I get interdicted by a wing of two FDL's that were also not WANTED. I submit, and they proceed to open fire on me. I return fire, and because they had crimes on, I became WANTED. The cops show up and start shooting at me too. I end up killing both CMDR FDL's. Now, in the new system, if I understand it right, the next time I die I'm going to have to pay for a portion of their rebuys. How exactly is that right? I was attacked, but because I had CRIMES OFF, I now have to pay millions of credits for successfully defending myself?

Is this broken or am I not understanding it right?

Hah, see this is the thing; report crimes is for your ship only. It means they didn't get a bounty for attacking you. You can't toggle someone else's reporting; only your own. If you received a bounty, it means they had report crimes on.

Perhaps turn it back on again.

 

[Spacecat]

Interesting...

 

[GraXXoR]

Nobody reported them shooting you. The first the police heard was them reporting getting shot... It makes a kind of sick, ED sort of sense.

 

[kofeyh]

Interesting...

No; intentional. It's always been this way. It takes two to tango; this is why there is a global message in an instance, whenever a commander changes their report crime state.

--

You can elect to report if being attacked is a crime or not; but we do not get to set that value for other players. And well we shouldn't, otherwise we could essentially just remove anyone elses ability to report a crime at will and then blast them for zero penalty.

tl;dr - report crimes is for own ship, not anyone elses.

 

[MickyG1982]

The clue really is in the functions name:

Report Crimes Against Me

On, it does what it says on the tin, off, it doesn't.

No report = no crime

NPC's always have this on so returning fire on a clean ship will always result in a bounty.

 

[Nightshady]

Hah, see this is the thing; report crimes is for your ship only. It means they didn't get a bounty for attacking you. You can't toggle someone else's reporting; only your own. If you received a bounty, it means they had report crimes on.

Perhaps turn it back on again.

Yes I realize why it happened, but it's broken. I was attacked and defended myself and now I have to pay my attackers rebuy. I don't want to fly with CRIMES ON. That doesn't mean I should have to pay someone's rebuy if I'm attacked. I just don't want them to be WANTED because they attacked me.

The clue really is in the functions name:

Report Crimes Against Me

On, it does what it says on the tin, off, it doesn't.

I understand how REPORT CRIMES works. What I'm saying is I shouldn't be on the hook for their rebuy because they attacked me just because I don't have REPORT CRIMES ON.

 

[kofeyh]

Yes I realize why it happened, but it's broken.

No, it's not. Frontier could have a flag to better show if people are reporting crimes or not; but if you disable report crimes, then being attacked is not considered a crime.

I was attacked and defended myself and now I have to pay my attackers rebuy.

Because they had report crimes on; it's always been like this, from a crime reporting point of view. You would have received pilot's federation bounty due to unsanctioned attack on another ship that was reporting crimes.

I don't want to fly with CRIMES ON.

No problem, that means you are okay with fighting and are a) not wanting the cops to help you (they may try to stop you though) and b) are prepared to get a bounty. That doesn't give you carte blanche to blast anything shooting at you just because it shot at you.

That doesn't mean I should have to pay someone's rebuy if I'm attacked. I just don't want them to be WANTED because they attacked me.

They were not wanted for attacking you. But if they have report crimes turned on, then you do not have automatic right to engage. This may be frustrating, but the alternative, is people just fly around with RC off, and can kill as many NPCs and CMDRs as they like, with zero consequences.

--

If you want to have the right to defend yourself, then yes you will need report crimes on. That this now has harsher penalties is because people demanded them. And they will be even stronger in 3.0.

 

[Nightshady]

No, it's not. Frontier could have a flag to better show if people are reporting crimes or not; but if you disable report crimes, then being attacked is not considered a crime.



Because they had report crimes on; it's always been like this.



No problem, that means you are okay with fighting and not having the cops involved. That doesn't give you carte blanche to blast anything shooting at you.



Yes, it does. Because report crimes is local, not global. Turn report crimes back on if you want to have a legal ability to return fire.

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately. In this situation, I had every right to return fire. I don't want the cops jumping in when I fight, so I leave CRIMES OFF. I don't want people to be WANTED if they attack me. That doesn't mean in any form or fashion that I should be on the hook for their rebuy if I'm attacked and I kill them. That makes no sense.

 

[Santisador]

It's not really working as intended I don't think.
If both ships are clean and report crimes are off the attacked ship, there should be some sort of initiative stat that tags that ship as the defender so fines aren't accrued.
You shouldn't be penalized for defending yourself, ever.

 

[Nightshady]

It's not really working as intended I don't think.
If both ships are clean and report crimes are off the attacked ship, there should be some sort of initiative stat that tags that ship as the defender so fines aren't accrued.
You shouldn't be penalized for defending yourself, ever.

Exactly my point. Thanks!

 

[kofeyh]

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately.

Turning off report crimes, does not give you an automatic right to shoot another ship. It would be very broken if you could, for the reasons outlined.

In this situation, I had every right to return fire. I don't want the cops jumping in when I fight, so I leave CRIMES OFF.

Quite. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure you have a legal right to return fire, is to have report crimes on.

I don't want people to be WANTED if they attack me. That doesn't mean in any form or fashion that I should be on the hook for their rebuy if I'm attacked and I kill them. That makes no sense.

With report crimes off, I think you've missed the salient point, that shooting at you, for any reason, is no longer illegal with report crimes off. They didn't commit a crime. Because you expressly told the game it wasn't.

Again; it's programmatically very difficult to have a situation where you say it's okay to shoot at you; but then it's also okay for you to essentially have the right to shoot them in return. It requires that they also have report crimes off.

It's not a perfect system. And maybe people should have thought about that, before demanding contextless punishment. But here we are.

 

[Roybe]

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately. In this situation, I had every right to return fire. I don't want the cops jumping in when I fight, so I leave CRIMES OFF. I don't want people to be WANTED if they attack me. That doesn't mean in any form or fashion that I should be on the hook for their rebuy if I'm attacked and I kill them. That makes no sense.

But it seems that you are missing the meaning of Crimes off. With crimes off...the people attacking you do not incur a crime...it's basic use is for those folks that desire to PVP to allow themselves to be attacked. Basically, Crimes off means you just shut off the C & P system to let people attack you and not incur a crime.

Without a crime attached to the attackers, you incur the crime because they do not have the option to not have the crime reported.

I think this is an E: D thing...it seems to catch a lot of people out.

 

[Mano d'Oro]

Uh... no. The purpose of the Crime and Punishment system is to punish those that kill people indiscriminately. In this situation, I had every right to return fire. I don't want the cops jumping in when I fight, so I leave CRIMES OFF. I don't want people to be WANTED if they attack me. That doesn't mean in any form or fashion that I should be on the hook for their rebuy if I'm attacked and I kill them. That makes no sense.

Dude, you're making no sense. If your attacker is Clean in the system, and they then attack you, if you have 'Report Crimes Against Me' set to 'Off' then they are still 'Clean' because you haven't reported their crime! Any subsequent return fire from you is you shooting at 'Clean' ships! How are you not seeing this? If you had your 'Report Crimes' set to 'On' then the attack against you would have got them 'Wanted' status for Assault, entitling you to shoot back as they would be the criminals for opening hostilities! Example: If I get into a punch-up IRL, but CCTV only catches me clapping my assailant 'round the lug-hole, rather than him throwing the first punch, I'll be the one who gets it from John Q. Law as I would have no proof I was acting in self-defence. Follow?

 

[kofeyh]

It's not really working as intended I don't think.

It's working as intended. The intention is that every commander can elect whether it's okay, or not okay, to be shot at; that doesn't, however, extend to an implicit right to make that decision for someone else.

These sorts of concerns were raised when the Pilot's Federation bounty was introduced. And again when Sandy built the new system for 3.0. Unfortunately, the weight of demand was on the side of "don't care, punish people".

At this time; if you want to fight people with a legitimate reason, you either have to have report crimes on; to force the issue, or have it off, and face the bounty costs instead. There is no way to tell the game, that it's okay to be shot at, but you reserve the right to shoot back. This is going to be very complicated to program.

Note: if you are aligned to a power play power, however, this modifies when the pilot's federation bounty applies. It won't, if you are attacked in one of your power's (control or exploited I believe) system, or are attacking a fellow power play player, in one of theirs.

edit: sorry for the edits; I'm trying to communicate my points as best I can

 

[Nightshady]

Turning off report crimes, does not give you an automatic right to shoot another ship. It would be very broken if you could, for the reasons outlined.



Quite. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure you have a legal right to return fire, is to have report crimes on.



With report crimes off, I think you've missed the salient point, that shooting at you, for any reason, is no longer illegal with report crimes off. They didn't commit a crime. Because you expressly told the game it wasn't.

Again; it's programmatically very difficult to have a situation where you say it's okay to shoot at you; but then it's also okay for you to essentially have the right to shoot them in return. It requires that they also have report crimes off.

It's not a perfect system. And maybe people should have thought about that, before demanding contextless punishment. But here we are.

The reason I bring this up is because almost all PvP'ers fly with CRIMES OFF. We don't want the cops coming in and making a fight 'unfair'. The point that you should never be punished for defending yourself is valid. It's also very reasonable to expect the game to understand the difference between "I don't want the cops coming to my aid" and "I'm a murder hobo that kills everything". I don't care if the latter is punished by having to pay for rebuys of their victims, but the former shouldn't be punished in the same way for defending themselves. That's not how the punishment system was intended to be.

 

[Roybe]

The reason I bring this up is because almost all PvP'ers fly with CRIMES OFF. We don't want the cops coming in and making a fight 'unfair'. The point that you should never be punished for defending yourself is valid. It's also very reasonable to expect the game to understand the difference between "I don't want the cops coming to my aid" and "I'm a murder hobo that kills everything". I don't care if the latter is punished by having to pay for rebuys of their victims, but the former shouldn't be punished in the same way for defending themselves. That's not how the punishment system was intended to be.

If you are not PVP'ing you need to turn on report crimes...or remember that you cannot shoot NPC's until you turn it back on to prevent incurring fines...

 

[Nightshady]

But I absolutely believe if I have report crimes off, do not have an active wanted status and someone else engages me, they've elected to fight and report-crimes should disengage.

Then you're saying you agree with me that it's not working as intended.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Is crimes reporting working exactly how it has forever really that troublesome?

I heard there's a cool PvP hub now and that they're pretty strict about having crimes off during fights. Maybe you should check that out once 3.0 drops?

 

[Nightshady]

But it seems that you are missing the meaning of Crimes off. With crimes off...the people attacking you do not incur a crime...it's basic use is for those folks that desire to PVP to allow themselves to be attacked. Basically, Crimes off means you just shut off the C & P system to let people attack you and not incur a crime.

Without a crime attached to the attackers, you incur the crime because they do not have the option to not have the crime reported.

I think this is an E: D thing...it seems to catch a lot of people out.

For the millionth time, I understand why they're not WANTED. I fly with CRIMES OFF because I don't want the cops helping me. That's not a reason to be heavily punished if I'm defending myself from an attacker and I'm CLEAN.

Is crimes reporting working exactly how it has forever really that troublesome?

I heard there's a cool PvP hub now and that they're pretty strict about having crimes off during fights. Maybe you should check that out once 3.0 drops?

The difference will be when the new patch drops and you have to pay the rebuys for the CMDR's that you have killed. When the patch drops, if you are CLEAN and attacked, you could end up paying millions of credits for defending yourself. That's not right.