New Crime & Punishment Will Be Broken If You Fly with CRIMES OFF

I still don't understand how two unwanted, clean ships firing at each other can result in just one being considered unlawful because he didn't report being fired upon him.
If someone could tell me why crime reporting can be turned off, and what was its intended purpose as an option, maybe I could understand where the problem is.

Anyone?
 
I still don't understand how two unwanted, clean ships firing at each other can result in just one being considered unlawful because he didn't report being fired upon him.
If someone could tell me why crime reporting can be turned off, and what was its intended purpose as an option, maybe I could understand where the problem is.

Anyone?

In this game there has to be a way to have Law Enforcement get involved in shinanegans, this appears to be by having a toggleable switch called "Report Crimes against me"

However, some gameplay involves acts that would summon Law Enforcement, which both sides may not want ie. PvP, so PvP generally turn off report crimes.

A great way to annoy-the-bejesus out of PvPers is to engage in PvP with Report Crimes against you on (actually it isnt ;-)) so your opposite gets a bounty and has Law Enforcement attack themn when they turn up.

How to avoid? Turn Report Crime son and engage in PvP in Anarchy.
 
I read the first 16 pages of this thread, but not the rest, since my life is too short, so I may have missed some exceptionally well-argued points that weren't covered in the first 16 pages. But somehow I doubt it.

I think the actual issue has nothing to do with PVP, or whether you want cops to show up or not.

It's really much simpler than that, and of course several people have alluded to this:

It's about whether defending yourself against attack should be a crime.

If you're clean, it should not, regardless of whether you're in secure space or an anarchy.

If you're already wanted, then it's arguable whether defending yourself against attack by a bounty hunter should be an additional crime. IMO this is what we should be discussing here, as I can see it both ways.

You might argue not, as the bounty hunter should know that taking on a crim incurs risk. But if attacking someone wanted is not a crime, and defending yourself against attack is not a crime, then the cops won't show up to the party, so the bounty hunter will have to do her business without help.

So it may be necessary to have counter-attacking the bounty hunter remain a crime, if, as the counter-attacker, you're already wanted.

Whether or not we should have a "Report crimes but no cops please" option as well is another matter, and I don't have strong feelings about that.
 
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I still don't understand how two unwanted, clean ships firing at each other can result in just one being considered unlawful because he didn't report being fired upon him.
If someone could tell me why crime reporting can be turned off, and what was its intended purpose as an option, maybe I could understand where the problem is.

Anyone?

It's been explained multiple times in this thread. :) Something can only be considered unlawful if it is reported, so if you don't report it, you're on your own...
 

Achilles7

Banned
Yep I've had many instances where similar has happened to me...& this is compounded by the fact that I tend to forget which crimes report status I have at any one time, since I regularly swap between on & off.

The whole crimes off issue has always been an irritation &/or confusing issue in the 'fog of war' - for example..

In one busy HazRES at a CG, a cmdr in a Vulture from a wing attacked me even though I was clean & we had been in the same instance for a good 20 mins...I thought maybe I'd shot him first or stolen his kill because the incident occurred in the middle a frenzy of NPCs & cmdrs, so I didn't immediately return fire, I boosted out of his sights & put full pips to sys & began asking him what the problem was - while typing he hit me with a second volley taking a ring off my Vulture's shields.

Well it's game on now! LSS - I got his shields down & he began to run; I gave chase with my newly acquired DD5s & killed him! After, I realised I was wanted, so assumed I must have shot him first, accidentally. I turned around to see a Cutter from his wing coming towards me...hence I was preparing to fight; when, to my surprise, he comm'd me apologising on behalf of this other guy...it had been a mistake & he had thought I was attacking one of his wing when it was actually a NPC at close proximity in the melee. I was really lucky since my wanted status indicated that i was the aggressor & if they hadn't had voice comms, I'm pretty sure the rest of his wing would have killed me without hesitation.

I usually fly with crimes off when looking for a fight & switch it back on when I'm engaged in other business where I don't want my time wasted. However this issue is a mild irritation currently since being 'wanted' means slightly less than the square root of FA (not flight assist!), but under the new C&P it will be a right royal PITA!

Solution? Err I'll get back to you...
 
Appreciate that you are thinking of solutions rather than just shooting others down, but yeh, as above. They were clean. I honestly feel that the best middle ground is some kind of crimes reported but no response.

And I don't see it like others have said...

"Hey, cops, I just been attacked, but don't worry about it, I got it!" - obviously isn't very reasonable, no serious police would accept that, even from a famous bounty hunter.

No, I see it more like...

"Federal Navy Rear Admiral attacked, crime registered, no backup required, will advise.". The cops would have no reason to question that, I'm a military merc in a combat ship, I'm who THEY call when they need some perps handled already, there's no reason they wouldn't let me handle my own criminals.


Ahh, yes. Sorry missed the clean bit. So to summarize the issue is that some people just want to have a fight vs NPC or Player with no cops turning up and getting involved. Assuming that FDev are in with that idea then an additional Report Crimes variable could be created:

Report Crimes Against Me
Report Crimes Against Me No Assistance.
Don't Report Crimes Against Me.
 
Well, I went and did it. Those who support, please come and support, those who don't support, please come with valid reasoning. Please don't just go into that thread guns blazing, I have posted a suggestion in the suggestions forum in a respectful way for validation by FD, nothing more, nothing less.

I want to thank everyone again who I debated in this thread, I have no disrespect or grudge for any of you, peace!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...rt-crimes-should-also-report-one-s-own-crimes

Ahh, yes. Sorry missed the clean bit. So to summarize the issue is that some people just want to have a fight vs NPC or Player with no cops turning up and getting involved. Assuming that FDev are in with that idea then an additional Report Crimes variable could be created:

Report Crimes Against Me
Report Crimes Against Me No Assistance.
Don't Report Crimes Against Me.

Yeh, i can go with that, but I think the better solution is the one I posted above linking my suggestion thread. Please check it out and see what you think. Thanks!
 
There's a certain logic being missed here.

If I'm walking home, get attacked, get knocked out... then logic in this thread would suggest that no crime has been committed? What if I had amnesia due to head injuries? Just because I have no idea what happened, does it exempt the fact that a crime has obviously taken place?

Law enforcement doesn't work like that.

Unless this is an illogical ED gamey law then there is no real reason for it other than for 'gamey' reasons.

Someone mentioned using a flag system. No matter what happens, if you're clean and get fired on first, flags for both parties should reflect that someone has just attacked a clean commander and 'report crimes' becomes a grayed out consideration. Authorities don't turn up especially as the now attackers forfeit their right to protection. Simple solution.
 
It's been explained multiple times in this thread. :) Something can only be considered unlawful if it is reported, so if you don't report it, you're on your own...

Thank you for describing the effects for me, Sir, but I'm asking about cause.
I don't debate the existence of this system. I'm asking why can I turn it off? Why is it allowed?
 
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I still don't understand how two unwanted, clean ships firing at each other can result in just one being considered unlawful because he didn't report being fired upon him.
If someone could tell me why crime reporting can be turned off, and what was its intended purpose as an option, maybe I could understand where the problem is.

Anyone?

One wrinkle is to turn it off when you have a "Massacre 12 pirates" or similar mission. If you don't turn it off, as soon as you start fighting a group of those pirates, the police will turn up and kill some of them before you've tagged them all; then you don't get credited with all the kills.

That's the only situation I can think of though. There may be others but in general I always keep it on.
 
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Well, I went and did it. Those who support, please come and support, those who don't support, please come with valid reasoning. Please don't just go into that thread guns blazing, I have posted a suggestion in the suggestions forum in a respectful way for validation by FD, nothing more, nothing less.

I want to thank everyone again who I debated in this thread, I have no disrespect or grudge for any of you, peace!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...rt-crimes-should-also-report-one-s-own-crimes



Yeh, i can go with that, but I think the better solution is the one I posted above linking my suggestion thread. Please check it out and see what you think. Thanks!
Sounds good. It's elegant, should be easy to implement, doesn't affect those who don't care and solves the issue. Perfect.
 
I still don't understand how two unwanted, clean ships firing at each other can result in just one being considered unlawful because he didn't report being fired upon him.
If someone could tell me why crime reporting can be turned off, and what was its intended purpose as an option, maybe I could understand where the problem is.

Anyone?

It's not considered unlawful to shoot an unwanted ship. It's only considered unlawful if said unwanted ship reports it. It's the report that generates the wanted status, not the act itself. Of course, the considering party would be the authority, not you or other commanders or NPCs.

As long as you accept the fact that the "report crimes against me" option is indeed an option, you accept that using it means you're insisting that crimes against you not be reported, but that doesn't mean there are no crimes against you... ergo unlawful.

Player Y at Player X: *Pew pew...*

Player X: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No"

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Player X: *Shoots back*

Player Y: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player Y: "Yes!"

System Authority: "Player X shot Player Y who is in an unwanted ship. Player X is now wanted"

Player X: "That's not fair!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No, I will create a thread about it instead"
 
Sounds good. It's elegant, should be easy to implement, doesn't affect those who don't care and solves the issue. Perfect.

Thanks man, appreciate the support. I know you're not supporting me, you're supporting a good idea, but I'm still grateful for your saying it. Cheers.
 
Thank you for your time to write your response, Schmack.
I may have unnecessarily posted the first phrase while the underlined question was the sole point of the post.

So again, why is there a possibility to turn crime reporting system off?

It's allowed so that friends can have a go at each other without becoming wanted.

Thank you.
This explains everything.

It also proves that - should that be the case behind allowing players to turn it off - that the bounty as a response to attack by someone who isn't your friend and still has this system on, is clearly not working as intended.

In that case, OPs thread is valid and this requires addressing.
 
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Player Y at Player X: *Pew pew...*

Player X: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No"

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Player X: *Shoots back*

Player Y: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player Y: "Yes!"

System Authority: "Player X shot Player Y who is in an unwanted ship. Player X is now wanted"

Player X: "That's not fair!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No, I will create a thread about it instead"



It should really look like this:


Player Y at Player X: *Pew pew...*

Player X: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No"

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Player X: *Shoots back*

Player Y: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "What do you want? A cookie? You shot him first."

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"
 
It should really look like this:


Player Y at Player X: *Pew pew...*

Player X: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No"

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Player X: *Shoots back*

Player Y: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "What do you want? A cookie? You shot him first."

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"


Seems to me you agree with this proposal:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/404982-Report-crimes-should-also-report-one-s-own-crimes
 
Thank you for your time to write your response, Schmack.
I may have unnecessarily posted the first phrase while the underlined question was the sole point of the post.

So again, why is there a possibility to turn crime reporting system off?



Thank you.
This explains everything.

It also proves that - should that be the case behind allowing players to turn it off - that the bounty as a response to attack by someone who isn't your friend and still has this system on, is clearly not working as intended.

In that case, OPs thread is valid and this requires addressing.

The system isn't a switch to turn all crimes off. It just turns off crimes against you. Your ship doesn't discern intent, it only reports attack or it doesn't report attack.

This doesn't seem so difficult to me. The galaxy isn't customized to each player.

It should really look like this:


Player Y at Player X: *Pew pew...*

Player X: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "Would you like to file a report?"

Player X: "No"

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Player X: *Shoots back*

Player Y: "I was shot!"

System Authority: "What do you want? A cookie? You shot him first."

System Authority: "Player X and Player Y remain unwanted"

Can't happen that way if the 1st attack was unreported. To the system authority, the 1st attack didn't exist so then there could be no "you deserve it".
 
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