Report crimes should also report one's own crimes...

[Aashenfox]

Credit for original suggestions to Riverside and killerminster

It has recently been discussed to death in Dangerous Discussion, whether it is appropriate or not, taking into account the game's design and balancing that against fair and fun gameplay vs cruel and unusual gameplay, that...

...a clean commander can attack without provocation another clean commander while having 'report crimes against me' turned on, and teh victim has this switched off, and therefore in case of any kind of retaliation, the aggressor suffers no penalty, while the victim takes the full brunt of C&P and everything that entails, for defending himself from an unprovoked attempted murder.

A lot of said discussion was focused on whether this is a problem or not. Many correctly say the button is labelled 'report crimes against me', so that's that, stop whingeing. I see the validity of that, but I say this is bonkers and can't really be intended. It was an interesting debate, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter who is right, if a solution can be found that neither party has any objection to.

So there is an opportunity to make it fair and fun, in a way that does not change the game in a negative way for anyone who thinks the unfair situation described above is 'fine', while solving the issue completely for those who think it's bonkers.

This is to make the switch simply 'report crimes', all crimes without exception including one's own. This would mean that in any case where a clean commander attacks without provocation or motive any other clean commander and either ship has report crimes on, the crime is reported. Only if NEITHER have report crimes on, will there be no crime recorded.

If anyone can come up with a mechanical objection to that, please do post, I've been thinking about it, and can't see a down side, in fact, it will also mean that if you want to do something naughty you have to turn your own crimes off as well, which is kinda how it should be, no? I think the alternative is called having your cake and eating it, something Elite as a game doesn't usually support.

 

[babelfisch]

I would love to disagree but I can't. Do it.

 

[Riverside]

I agree with the proposal, however there is (probably) a reason why it hasn't been implemented this way.

ED uses a peer to peer networking system to connect players, which means there is no infallible server to trust, the stream of event updates needs to agree between peers because no one peer can be trusted (ie it could be sending corrupt or forged data) but more than one can reasonably be trusted to agree.

So we can't rely on only one datastream.

It seems to me that both peers can still send the relevant game data (as if report crimes were on) but with an associated report crimes state tag to tell the game how to react, but still provide the data to corroborate the other players.

There may be other circumstances (eg scooping illegal cargo) that could be captured by this change & would need to be sense checked. Scooping the cargo isn't a crime, carrying it isn't, only getting cargo scanned with it on board is etc. If this cannot easily be fixed it could potentially give additional gameplay, requiring the player to disable 'report crimes' before committing a crime, which makes sense (but so does the current method).

 

[Schmack]

I disagree with the proposal.

If you want crimes against you reported. Turn it on. You should not be able to control whether or not your own crimes are reported. It's not up to you who reports crimes you've committed. That gives you too much power in the game. It's one thing to allow yourself to be shot without generating a report, but quite another to be able to allow yourself to shoot someone else without generating a report.

It would be better to just disable the function entirely, but then you'd have to play the wanted game any time you and a friend wanted to have a shootout without involving the police.

You have no way of knowing if the other ship has the option turned on, just like now. You take a risk when you engage an unwanted ship.

I don't understand why someone would want a very selective "report crimes against me", for limited NPCs while wanting all other encounters to be filtered.

That's what this amounts to.

 

[Aashenfox]

I hear you and can't disagree with the logic, however, I can say that if I have to choose my immersion breaker, it's an easy choice. More problems are solved than introduced by the proposal in the OP. Fringe cases may need to be looked at ad hoc, but in my opinion, the new CnP system is indeed 'broken', under the terms of the engagement described in the OP, in fact one could say worse than broken as it is being applied in literal reverse. I say that is the key situation that needs addressing and address separately any additional issues that arise as a result (which I'm not completely convinced there would be).

 

[Aashenfox]

I disagree with the proposal.

You should not be able to control whether or not your own crimes are reported. It's not up to you who reports crimes you've committed. That gives you too much power in the game. It's one thing to allow yourself to be shot without generating a report, but quite another to be able to allow yourself to shoot someone else without generating a report.

We seem to be in total agreement here. The current situation does not do what you describe, the engagement described in the OP proves it.

I don't understand why someone would want a very selective "report crimes against me", for limited NPCs while wanting all other encounters to be filtered.

That's what this amounts to.

I don't see how the OP means that, sorry. What situation, describe it step by step, do you see being broken by the proposal as implemented?

 

[Crank Larson]

I disagree with the proposal.

This. For the reasons you state.

I hear you both and can't disagree with the logic, however, I can say that if I have to choose my immersion breaker, it's an easy choice.

Which is fair enough.

 

[John Xenir]

I agree with the proposal.
There's another thread where discussion on this is ongoing so I'll refrain from it here.

+yes

 

[Crank Larson]

What situation, describe it step by step, do you see being broken by the proposal as implemented?

In my case, it comes from the OP in the original thread that spawned this suggestion. Your proposal would make the OP's scenario impossible - I still don't see any problem with that scenario.

 

[Aashenfox]

I agree with the proposal.
There's another thread where discussion on this is ongoing so I'll refrain from it here.

+yes

Yes, but here it's mechanical not moral, which is far easier, I like 1s and 0s. Is there an objection? What is the objection? Is it valid? How can the premise be tweaked mechanically to cover the objection? If there's no valid objection, implement. Voila!

In my case, it comes from the OP in the original thread that spawned this suggestion. Your proposal would make the OP's scenario impossible - I still don't see any problem with that scenario.

And you're entitled to your opinion. I consider it game breakingly wrong. Assuming that FD agree with me and think it's not in the spirit of the game, just in case, make the assumption. Do you think this would break any OTHER aspect of CnP or mechanic of the game.

 

[John Xenir]

No objection! I disagree with Schmack's point of view but I'll discuss it in the other thread

 

[Vorxian]

It just makes sense that regardless of report crimes or not, if you defend yourself, that isn't a crime.

The semantics behind this I'm not really interested in, i'm more curious about the logic of being a victim of an attack, but also be a criminal by defending yourself. It just makes no sense to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that if someone fires on a clean commander, they have every right to shoot back regardless of the state of 'report crimes'. In a way FDEV are promoting the use on non combatant methods as it is... and I'm sure, that isn't their intentions.

 

[EUS]

The problem I see is for those times I'm doing something underhanded, and do not wish the authorities to show up.
Yes, I'm clean, and I'd like to defend myself, and stay clean and no, I don't want the police to get involved.

 

[Riverside]

The problem I see is for those times I'm doing something underhanded, and do not wish the authorities to show up.
Yes, I'm clean, and I'd like to defend myself, and stay clean and no, I don't want the police to get involved.

How do you achieve that at the moment?

 

[EUS]

I can't, I shoot to break a scan if occurring, then run.
At the moment, it doesn't cost me anything other than a small timeout in the system.
The future? Dunno.

 

[Riverside]

I can't, I shoot to break a scan if occurring, then run.

This rule won't change that.

 

[EUS]

I think I need to understand the final version of C&P that's incoming before committing.

 

[Riverside]

I think I need to understand the final version of C&P that's incoming before committing.

This rule only affects PvP, because against an NPC, they will always report crimes (AFAIK) if they are clean & you attack them.

In PvP if you both have report crimes turned off everyone is happy. If you both have it on, no change there either. However if the victim is clean AND has report crimes turned off, AND the attacker is clean with report crimes turned on, the result will change with this proposal.

The victim in this case being the one who is shot at first, the attacker shoots first.

Currently the victim becomes wanted when they return fire, with the proposal in place the game would accurately record that the attacker shot first because their own ship would report the crime (as an aircraft black box would) making the attacker wanted and the victim free to return fire.

This provides motivation for the attacker (who knows they are about to commit a crime) to turn off report crimes. If the victim chooses not to turn it off, the attacker becomes wanted as expected, if the victim turns it off (or has it off already) they can still defend themselves without gaining a bounty.

 

[EUS]

I'm aware this is PVP related, I've read the thread in gen discussions, and I agree something needs to be changed wrt defending one's self.
I think the suggestion of "report crimes, but don't aid me" toggle would be a great option.

 

[Martian Successor]

I agree with your proposal Ashenfox however I would offer to simplify it down to its purest form for ease of clarity and implementation. I propose that if a CMDR who has report crimes turned on and fires on a clean CMDR with crimes off then their report crimes status is voided (for that target) and thus the clean CMDR can defend themselves without being tagged as a criminal. Nothing else is changed in the game by this and there are no negatives that I can see.

How does that sound?