New Crime & Punishment Will Be Broken If You Fly with CRIMES OFF

[A D]

I'm trying to figure what the split is between players who so rarely engage in PvP that they literally cannot see Nightshady's point and those who are doing their level best to obfuscate and infuriate knowing full well what this means to PvP. Dangerous Discussion has become a pitiable waste of time for anyone trying to get information or share a legitimate concern.

Now I'm confused. The OP wanted to know why he got a bounty in the events that happened. It's been clearly explained, as has the proper use of the "report crimes" function. With respect, I don't read your post as contributing anything to the discussion.

 

[Mohrgan]

Absolutely this.. Report Crimes was fine with the old system but is lacking with the new C&P, something of an oversight and OP raises a valid point.. personally I like the suggestion(s) of a third toggle, report but not respond. Makes much more sense with the current update.

John Galt btw.. great guy, but really 70ish pages for one speech! Nearly killed me..

The only difference here is the consequences for using the switch how the OP has, not how the switch works. Everything worked as intended, and as it has since the beginning. It's just that now, the cost of doing what the OP did was more, and he noticed. Lesson learned. The exact same thing would have happened in Live, except for the price tag.

 

[DaveB]

Suggestion for more accurate thread title: "Using the 'crimes off' option wrongly will carry greater consequences with the new C&P system"

Which it will, of course. Given the size of the consequences involved - like multimillion rebuys added to your own rebuy costs - I can see an argument for FD putting a confirm/cancel dialog on it when it's toggled off. Something like "Are you sure? With this turned off other ships can shoot you when you're clean without becoming wanted so you can't shoot back outside anarchy space without becoming wanted yourself unless they also have it turned off. <confirm turn off reporting crimes>|<cancel - leave reporting crimes turned on>" But to ask for it to be changed because folks who have been misusing it will now get bitten (and bitten quite hard) by that is snowflaking at its worst.

You CAN use a wrench as a hammer if you want. But the fact that it doesn't make a very good hammer doesn't make it a bad wrench.

 

[Sugarat]

The only difference here is the consequences for using the switch how the OP has, not how the switch works. Everything worked as intended, and as it has since the beginning. It's just that now, the cost of doing what the OP did was more, and he noticed. Lesson learned. The exact same thing would have happened in Live, except for the price tag.

Or maybe the switch as it is, is no longer fit for purpose. Sure it works as intended, in the games infancy. The game, and C&P, has moved on. I feel this is an edge case that should be addressed, which ofc, is absolutely the point of a Beta period and a feedback forum.. I see no reason why the toggle shouldn't be updated to prevent this.. it doesn't adversely affect the game play of anyone, and only seems fair that a clean CMDR that is attacked shouldn't fall foul of the new system..

 

[Mohrgan]

That's not what even an experienced player would expect as consequences from switching it off: First shot against me should always overrule any filter settings, no matter what.



From a strict point of logic you are both correct. I'm talking about the intuitive aspect of this setting. If you can't see how counterintuitive this is I'm afraid I'm out of arguments then. And don't let me start talking about logic in general when it comes to ED in which case I'd like you to point to the 'logic' of planetary scan missions... not to derail this topic but as an attempt to explain why my trust in ED's logic is more than limited. But if you can't trust neither in logic nor intuition you're pretty much lost.



I do, even as a non PvPer. I can perfectly understand his point and how he's expecting to get no help at all from authority ships if under attack and the possible reason for it. If this filter isn't meant to do exactly this then there should be another filter doing it instead - because his point is absolutely valid IMO.

EDIT:

Just had a short internet outage and see how my last point was already hijacked, in a way...

Blah blah blah... Only a PvPer would understand... Complete nonsense. The button is what the button is, and has always been.

The logic is, the switch does what it says it will do, stop your ship from reporting crimes committed against you. Any one who shoots at you has your permission to do so, when that switch is set to off. Period. You are attempting to turn this into a Gordian's knot, when it's just a silly granny knot, the OP knitted up himself.

The simple truth is, there is no option in the game remotely like what the OP assumed, or wished, the RC switch is. This is not a PvP question, this is not a bash FD question, this is a why expect one thing, when it's label says another thing. You can't simultaneously be out side of the law, and protected by it. Perfectly logical, if you weren't playing to an agenda.

 

[jasonbarron]

Or maybe the switch as it is, is no longer fit for purpose. Sure it works as intended, in the games infancy. The game, and C&P, has moved on. I feel this is an edge case that should be addressed, which ofc, is absolutely the point of a Beta period and a feedback forum.. I see no reason why the toggle shouldn't be updated to prevent this.. it doesn't adversely affect the game play of anyone, and only seems fair that a clean CMDR that is attacked shouldn't fall foul of the new system..

Yes, pretty much this. Despite the trollish levels of obfuscation in this thread, I'm glad the flaw has been pointed out and addressed; the toggle the way it was set up in the game's infancy, is no longer sufficient for it's intended purpose.

 

[Mohrgan]

Yes, pretty much this. Despite the trollish levels of obfuscation in this thread, I'm glad the flaw has been pointed out and addressed; the toggle the way it was set up in the game's infancy, is no longer sufficient for it's intended purpose.

Now I'll tell you what, that there is a real argument, and something that can be worked with. The only obfuscation going on around here is the feigned surprise that a switch set to not report crimes, didn't. The switch has the exact same function as before the Beta, the only difference is the costs.

Campaign for a new option/button, but all of these incredulous reactions are simply misplaced. No one ever asked for a "Report Crimes against me, but don;t send help" button before. Take charge and move the idea along. Stop trying to make it PvE/PvP issue. It was a matter of misunderstanding of the game's mechanics, nothing more.

 

[Riverside]

Tell me one single case in where this option as it currently stands makes still some sense then? Or for what purpose would you use it? It's true that it's not directly a PvE/PvP issue. Though the only purpose that I can see is the special case of mutual agreed PvP.
Something else?

About the only place I use it now is in a High RES where there are too many Police already. I switch it off & no new ones spawn. It's not an activity I do very often.

If I'm wanted (which is very rarely, I do my dirty work in anarchies) or if I'm clean but carrying illegal goods (considerably more likely but still rare) I'll switch it off to avoid drawing attention to myself if I'm attacked. Mostly I only switch it off to test stuff with other Cmdrs in betas (ie PvP).

I rarely use it, and if it went away completely I wouldn't miss it.

 

[znôrt]

Yes, pretty much this. Despite the trollish levels of obfuscation in this thread, I'm glad the flaw has been pointed out and addressed; the toggle the way it was set up in the game's infancy, is no longer sufficient for it's intended purpose.

disagree. you never had the right to 'self defense' if your foe was clean. i'm not discussing if this makes sense, but nothing has changed. you can still bug out instead of returning fire. and you can toggle crimes on. really don't see the problem. stakes got higher, yes, but that doesn't change the mechanic.

if anything, state of the toggle should be visible to anyone, is all. if you see the other has it on an still fire that's on you.

 

[Riverside]

if anything, state of the toggle should be visible to anyone, is all. if you see the other has it on an still fire that's on you.

This has been brought up before (probably in this thread). If your report crimes status is visible to all it removes the dilemma (ie removes depth). It would also likely become a de facto PvP flag, which has slippery slope written all over it.

ETA: If you want to confirm the other guy has report crimes disabled, just get them to toggle it in front of you.

Also, what in-universe reason would there be for broadcasting your report crimes status? Surely the Police would just hone in on any ship with it disabled on the basis that they're probably a criminal.

 

[Mohrgan]

Tell me one single case in where this option as it currently stands makes still some sense then? Or for what purpose would you use it? It's true that it's not directly a PvE/PvP issue. Though the only purpose that I can see is the special case of mutual agreed PvP.
Something else?

Tunnel vision, maybe? It's basic use, since forever, has to allow for unfettered PvP, under the right circumstances. Which is not some unheard of 'special case', it was what was done, and it can still do that. When I was flying with a player group, we had regular sparring matches. We kept the RC off so we weren't interrupted, or saddled with bounties.

It also commonly used to allow the same freedom for matches between random Commanders. No one wanted to get bounties/fines for having a go. Oh, and by the way, it can still do all of this, in the Beta. Do you think sparring and friendly matches will disappear now that there is an ATR? Na, if anything, the consequences for ship destruction will make the proper application of this feature even more important.

What it can't do while off, is report crimes. The essential bit that makes shooting back, not a crime.

 

[DaveB]

Tell me one single case in where this option as it currently stands makes still some sense then? Or for what purpose would you use it? It's true that it's not directly a PvE/PvP issue. Though the only purpose that I can see is the special case of mutual agreed PvP.
Something else?

I use it for what it was designed for still - when my buddies and I are in the mood to have a good old-fashioned brawl and we don;t want any of us with the (currently minor but in future less so) hassle of ending up wanted or for the cops to interfere so we all turn it off... So yeah, the "special case" that it was initially made FOR.

 

[Mohrgan]

Who of us has the tunnel vision remains to be seen. Please explain why, in the case you have it ON and shoot at someone (first shot by you), your very own module (or whatever does the transmission) shouldn't report your own crime? Just because it's set to ON suddenly means it's no crime anymore? Didn't you use the word logic some posts above? Any arguments along the line "because it always worked that way" are not so utterly impressive btw...

Your ship's computer reports crimes 'Against' you, not by you. I have never really tested if the RC function rats on me. I may very well do that, but I can't be sure. But, the point remains, the function, as it stands, and always has been, is to report crimes committed against you.

Talk about not being impressed..... Expecting a button that stops reporting crimes against you, to sudenly report crimes against you, is not a stellar endorsement either.

 

[Tobasco da Gama]

Though the only purpose that I can see is the special case of mutual agreed PvP.

Nope, that's it. Literally the only purpose for it, and also the only reason it's even in the game.

 

[Mohrgan]

Have you ever tried to imagine how such a device would be constructed? I'm pretty sure the current concept of such a device wouldn't stand a reality check. Think 'officially sealed', black box like transmitter, that is certainly not exclusively working in your favor, otherwise why would authority even bother (imagine the consequences and how easily it could be manipulated for 'fake crime reports'). Only works for me if stripped down to its totally abstract function, without any physical background: A unicorn device...

Certainly would be less confusing if renamed to something more unambiguous like "The Brawl Button".

But hey, got it. It can't be a 'device' but is a lot closer to a (limited) 'open for PvP' button while the only reason why not because it's hidden.

How it's constructed is one thing, but the fact is, the ship has an option, along with all of the other options, to change that state. Uh, you wouldn't need to open or hack a box, that offers the option in your control panel. The makers expect there to be times you may not want to report attacks on you. More unambiguous? Like saying exactly what it does? "Report Crimes Against Me; On/Off". I mean it does exactly what is says, no more, no less. How 'more unambiguous' can you get? Explicit labeling!

 

[znôrt]

This has been brought up before (probably in this thread). If your report crimes status is visible to all it removes the dilemma (ie removes depth). It would also likely become a de facto PvP flag, which has slippery slope written all over it.

but is it a dilemma? it should be assumed on by default, and as a law abiding citizen you're not supposed to fire on clean targets anyway. if you commit a crime on a random stranger you shouldn't be expecting him to be happy about it. in the case of pvp, there are a few places for undisturbed violence to use, outside of jurisdiction, and it can be arranged. making the flag visible would make undisturbed violence 'safe' anywhere, which is just more convenient, and the whole point of the toggle.

yes, much like a pvp flag, why is this a bad thing?

Also, what in-universe reason would there be for broadcasting your report crimes status? Surely the Police would just hone in on any ship with it disabled on the basis that they're probably a criminal.

no need to broadcast it. we can scan legal records of players, and get detailed health reports of their modules in realtime, we could as well be detecting if their snitch beacon thingy is on.

 

[znôrt]

detecting if their snitch beacon thingy is on.

just thinking: switching report crimes off could reduce your signature a bit. this would aid in smuggling and sneaking on someone, with a compromise. any cmdr able to target you would unmask you and expose your setting. should be settable only while docked, since it involves tampering with a police device. and pvpers could use this to identify each other and fight like real men/women. everybody happy?

 

[Schmack]

just thinking: switching report crimes off could reduce your signature a bit. this would aid in smuggling and sneaking on someone, with a compromise. any cmdr able to target you would unmask you and expose your setting. should be settable only while docked, since it involves tampering with a police device. and pvpers could use this to identify each other and fight like real men/women. everybody happy?

It's not a police device. The cops can see it happening and if you aren't reporting, they don't care.

 

[Schmack]

Have you ever tried to imagine how such a device would be constructed? I'm pretty sure the current concept of such a device wouldn't stand a reality check. Think 'officially sealed', black box like transmitter, that is certainly not exclusively working in your favor, otherwise why would authority even bother (imagine the consequences and how easily it could be manipulated for 'fake crime reports'). Only works for me if stripped down to its totally abstract function, without any physical background: A unicorn device...

Certainly would be less confusing if renamed to something more unambiguous like "The Brawl Button".

But hey, got it. It can't be a 'device' but is a lot closer to a (limited) 'open for PvP' button while the only reason why not because it's hidden.

I don't think it's a device at all. I think it's just like the ignore function used in text or "block" function. Neither is part of your ship but both are part of your game. I think turning off the crime reporting is just a different mode you want to run in which allows you to get away from the perhaps unwanted interaction with system authorities. It cannot be damaged (neither can your lights it seems) and it's not a module. It's more like an ignore function, a game function but not a ship function since you can swap ships and still have the same setting.

 

[John Xenir]

Now I'll tell you what, that there is a real argument, and something that can be worked with. The only obfuscation going on around here is the feigned surprise that a switch set to not report crimes, didn't. The switch has the exact same function as before the Beta, the only difference is the costs.
(...)

The only obfuscation here is not reporting a crime against yourself doesn't take away your right to self-defense. Especially if you're not wanted yourself, which means you shouldn't be fired upon regardless of on-board system status on/off, not without consequences. And in this case, the old switch caused complete reversal of newly-introduced C&P system.

Can people like you finally NOTICE this thread is about interaction of CR and new C&P, not about the old switch still working right or wrong?
This thread could really appreciate you guys reading AND understanding at the same time.