Are gamers killing game innovation?

Credit to Lucifera Danzig for posting this in another thread and bringing it to my attention. I think it does a good job of showing how despite players often crying out for innovation, what they are often saying is "Copy game X"

[video=youtube;Cxhs-GLE29Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&ab_channel=TheGameTheorists[/video]

Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.
 
Credit to Lucifera Danzig for posting this in another thread and bringing it to my attention. I think it does a good job of showing how despite players often crying out for innovation, what they are often saying is "Copy game X"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&ab_channel=TheGameTheorists

Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.

Well, depends.

If we look at EA and other companies with their CoD clones and going for popular trends they create what the masses wants.

I would say in that regard innovation suffers since it becomes a majority rules for larger games and what sells it what is created anew with little innovation.

In general I tend to think that large published games seldom innovate and then we have outliers like CDProjectRed with it's incredible Witcher series and Tynan Sylvesters Rimworld.
 
what about this

[video]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1533827767/the-tenth-hell-stygian-3d-rpg-with-evolutionary-na?ref=section_games_new_and_noteworthy[/video]
 
Credit to Lucifera Danzig for posting this in another thread and bringing it to my attention. I think it does a good job of showing how despite players often crying out for innovation, what they are often saying is "Copy game X"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&ab_channel=TheGameTheorists

Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.

There is a lot of please copy this, however sometimes it's to show what players are missing in a game.

First rule of game design must be to make sure your game is designed for those who are buying it and playing it.
Know your customer base.

SimCity did a awful job when they tried to get the new version out, no one liked it, and Cities skyline won most of the players over because they just made a better game.

It will not help to just do as some developers do, include everything into the game, you will end up with a complete mess of a game.
So developers need to think what they are actually trying to build, o through all the phases, and then stick to their guns.

ED is a great game, however I got the feeling they not always know in what direction they want to take the game, and they try to please to many different player groups, that is very dangerous because no one will be happy at the end.


Edit:broken keyboard
 
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On the flipside, how are you ever going to propose a new idea without being met with arguments like "why have I never seen something like that implemented in a game? Hmmm? It's probably impossible/unfun/terrible idea that's never going to work in a real game, there's a reason why nobody has done it" - by showing them a reference game that has that very idea already implemented and working well is simply the easiest way to shut these objections up.

Also citing fears of some individual feature turning Elite, as a whole, into some other game when FD themselves are adding stuff like the Engineers which are nothing like anything that existed in the old Elite games, and are influencing the way we play the game in rather pervasive ways. I could easily think up at least a couple of ways that you could have added module tuning / upgrading into the game that would have felt more in tune with what I thought Elite was about - by mostly copying ideas from other games. Such as implementing a tuning screen into outfitting similar to car games like Gran Turismo for example. Just let players modify the modules the way they want by adjusting some sliders. Every boost of performance would come with a compromise in some other stat somewhere else, so you could not just max every stat. Done. Extra layer of depth and complexity to outfitting achieved, but I guess we can't have that since soul-crushing F2P MMO style grind and casino gambling are an unalienable part of the very core of what Elite is about.
 
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Credit to Lucifera Danzig for posting this in another thread and bringing it to my attention. I think it does a good job of showing how despite players often crying out for innovation, what they are often saying is "Copy game X"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&ab_channel=TheGameTheorists

Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.

It's the Internet itself which affected video games mostly negatively in West.

Interestingly the negative effects are less severe in countries Japan. Might have to do with the fact, that the people themselves were used to being connected for longer (in the West it didn't really start until the iPhone), while their focus on consoles kept their games offline for longer.
 
Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.

Debatable. Imho one of their most impactful additions, Engineers, is the arch example of proven and widespread lowest denominator design: grind, random loot, random upgrades, rare additional random effects, pvp advantage. Basically the "progression" approach that has taken over modern gaming, based on the idea that a skinner box is an easier player retention device than gameplay rich enough to be its own reward.
 
Debatable. Imho one of their most impactful additions, Engineers, is the arch example of proven and widespread lowest denominator design: grind, random loot, random upgrades, rare additional random effects, pvp advantage. Basically the "progression" approach that has taken over modern gaming, based on the idea that a skinner box is an easier player retention device than gameplay rich enough to be its own reward.

Yeah, Engineers is a dicy one, so in a way, nice to see FD get backlash for it... although i do admit to like the randomness of the rolls, just not that combined with the randomness of getting the loot. Randomness squared.
 
Debatable. Imho one of their most impactful additions, Engineers, is the arch example of proven and widespread lowest denominator design: grind, random loot, random upgrades, rare additional random effects, pvp advantage. Basically the "progression" approach that has taken over modern gaming, based on the idea that a skinner box is an easier player retention device than gameplay rich enough to be its own reward.

How rich game play exactly would have to be and how much time and money it would require?

I think people always talk about 'dream approach' that gameplay is so much better than real live...that it easily becomes grind and numb again.

There's a catch. Our minds are adaptive. And that's a curse for anyone who wants to entertain us for longer than 2 hours. People WALK out from movies where too much stuff is going on because it is sensory overload.

So calling something 'grind' and 'dull' because it doesn't constantly zap you is highly subjective.

Second, progression approach is fine. What needs improving is small details. I personally see Engineers 3.0 having those with mats trader and remote workshop nice step forward. Now, if they drop something like hints system in NPC comms and dialogs, or environmental messaging - although Engineers interface now shows popups about each mats and where you can find them, excellent addition - it would be huge improvement.

I agree that materials collection can be improved and made more interesting, however I will disagree that people mostly complaining will be satisfied - as I said, it is highly subjective and really depends on your approach of the game.

As coming back to bigger question - does FD innovate and make things interesting? It really depends how much you are informed on work in background. For me chance driven gameplay driven by hidden world governing algorithms is best thing I want in ED. However if you view it as platform where you want to reach state X you will be bored most likely. You will find it tedious most likely.

As for gamers killing innovation....no. Developers relying too much on gamer feedback could do that though. Devs need to have their own mind. In the end of the day, game is their design, their intentions, their plan. So I despise people loadly demanding and threatening devs with Steam review bombs and complain to media. That's not how feedback and creativity loop works.
 
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As for gamers killing innovation....no. Developers relying too much on gamer feedback could do that though. Devs need to have their own mind. In the end of the day, game is their design, their intentions, their plan. So I despise people loadly demanding and threatening devs with Steam review bombs and complain to media. That's not how feedback and creativity loop works.
Issue with that is though that people plain out "don't buy" stuff that's not more of the same convenience food. Regarding several Million sold units as a failure is probably stupid, but I guess you need to break 8 digits when you're reliably putting your games up for sale half-off three months after release¹.

The Movie industry is entirely built around that problem. A studio makes a cheap stupid off-the-shelf romcom or an impossible-to-fail sequel to a big name franchise starring some easy to look at celebs for big money, and then put the profits into the "look at us we're making an art!" piece that sells a whopping five tickets at the box office in the first month, but nonetheless gets nominated for all the Academy® Awards™.

And when all is said and done, people complain about "design by committee", and then turn around and ask, nay, demand that "community majority" "decisions" are followed by studios. Excuse me while I put my taser back in the charger, I have another batch to go through today.

And about the thing where you're just clicking a button to randomly make numbers go up, I leave you with this:

[video=youtube_share;JQ_ImRIil-U]https://youtu.be/qy3OZygn_cM[/video]

———
¹ The "sales culture" is another idiot phenomenon in which The Industry actively teaches us that their products are most definitely not worth the normal asking price in a surprise suicide bid.
 
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Yeah, Engineers is a dicy one, so in a way, nice to see FD get backlash for it... although i do admit to like the randomness of the rolls, just not that combined with the randomness of getting the loot. Randomness squared.

Well, randomness is one tool amongst many, it's not inherently good or bad. Just happens that in this case it's being used with the rest of a now traditional industry-wide design. It's a pity, as the original "limited" progression felt fresh to me. The credit barrier was only an early extended tutorial and after that there was something elegant in the easy tuning between A-E modules. While I appreciate the additional fine-tuning (and how FSD range in particular turned every single ship into a viable bubble-hopper), I find it a bit disappointing that it had to come at the price of what imho is far from the best bit of traditional mmo-design. I'm curious to see what the next as-yet-unannounced big things from FD will be like.
 
Credit to Lucifera Danzig for posting this in another thread and bringing it to my attention. I think it does a good job of showing how despite players often crying out for innovation, what they are often saying is "Copy game X"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&ab_channel=TheGameTheorists

Its one reason, despite the fact that i don't always agree with FD's design choices, i'm willing to cut them a lot of slack, since they at least are trying to do things differently, and not make ED just be FPS EvE or CoD in space.

I support this message.
In the end it is FDev's game and I accept their final decisions.
We are already very lucky with the unprecedented responsiveness of this incredible developer.
 
Issue with that is though that people plain out "don't buy" stuff that's not more of the same convenience food. Regarding several Million sold units as a failure is probably stupid, but I guess you need to break 8 digits when you're reliably putting your games up for sale half-off three months after release¹.

That's a risk creative person face for every project though. Major point is to see trough all that toxicity to get leveled feedback. It is huge challenge. That's why we have community managers.
 
A dev that doesn't know what they want to do with their artistic vision and need to resort to what players posts on the internet isn't really worth the salt. Strong games and impressions come from genuine vision and craftsmanship.
You might not like it, but that is different taste.

Other than that I always find it kinda odd to put the blame on players. Basically anything wrong out there in games territory - you'll always find some excerpt taking an effort to put the blame on players. Consumers are just guilty of buying the crap that is on sale. If they wouldn't believe all the hype and false marketing promises, crap wouldn't sell as good.

Just my opinion though.
 
Things like this just illustrate that the general population can't be trusted to decide what's good for themselves. Games are crap, crap games keep selling. Films are crap, crap films make billions. Governments are crap.... ;)
 
Things like this just illustrate that the general population can't be trusted to decide what's good for themselves. Games are crap, crap games keep selling. Films are crap, crap films make billions. Governments are crap.... ;)

Familiarity is what we like. We don't like change. Even people who claim they do, they actually like change they feel they understand and see familiar. That's evolutionary trait.
 
Greed kills innovation.

I would take DICE and battlefield as a good example.

- BF1 was new and fresh
- BF2 improved upon it
- BF Vietnam gave damn fun helicopter controls and jungle warfare
- BF 2142 took a new Sci-Fi approach and introduced the Titan mode of battles which was awesome

- EA purchases DICE for gobs of money

- BF3 looks prettier than the earlier but the same gameplay
- BF4 more of the same...
- BF Hardline adds cops and robbers to the mix...

And still no new BF 2143 or even an add-on to BF

And look at the increase of DLC's for every part of that series...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_(video_game_series)

BF4 had nine, NINE DLC's...
 
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