PvP Possible small ship builds

[Torashuu]

Whenever reading about pvp, it comes to the fore the FDL is most used/usefull/easy/powerful because it has amazing ease of fitting, (shield) durability, maneuverability and firepower. The cutter seems to be the go-to for big ships due to its insane durability ->ramming potential. But I was wondering what is happening on the small ships side. The vulture with dual APAC with TLB seems to be a niche vs big three ships. The courier seems quite popular for again, big shields and maneuvering (dem enhanced thrusters and superlow weight), but it doesn't seem to have any particular strengths other than not dying and dodging a lot. Finally there was Na'Qan with his Cascade torp vipers/Cobras. But really, is there any reason to fly the smaller ships (including courier) at all other that the kicks of beating people from a disadvantage? Is there really no other reason to ditch the FDL other than that one is bored with it?

Personally I really enjoy the Viper MK3, but what really bothers me is two things, 1: Its terrible to fit with Enhanced performance thrusters. 2: Outside of Cascade torps (que crowd calling of cheats/lame/boring) its simply not a threat
Thinking about nr2, I ran up against a problem, which is that any weapon that would make the viper a threat could be fit on any of the others with larger benefits, so obviously that's not a solution (again, see cascade torps).

I am curious what you folks think about this?
Is it really a problem?
If yes, what do you think causes it, and how would you solve it?
If no, why not, and why should small ships remain (relatively) ineffectual?

 

[Morbad]

Don't put enhanced drives on a Viper III...you compromise one of the Viper's key advantages (awesome vertical/lateral thrust...EPTs have an inferior acceleration multiplier outside of forward/reverse that isn't listed) and too many compromises are needed to get forward speed significantly above that available with standard thrusters.

Cascade torps don't make the Viper III a threat. Six is just barely enough to knock out a larger thermal resist shield gen...which then leaves you with no weapons to do anything else.

All other things being equal, the FDL is essentially always going to be a superior combatant to the Viper III. I don't see any particular issue with this, as the Viper III is a much smaller and cheaper ship that was always intended to be lower-tier. That doesn't mean the Viper doesn't still have utility or that preference isn't a valid reason to choose the ship.

 

[Torashuu]

Thanks for your response.

Didn't know that about the EPTs, thanks! Then at least I'll not feel as bad mounting 3A's and not worry about forward speed so much.
Never did mount cascade torps, as I always felt sacrificing the medium hard points was too big a drawback, because if you screw up the torps you are basically toothless.

I understand that the FDL would be a superior combatant, but it could still be so without also being more maneuverable/faster than say a Viper. It would give the viper (and other ships) a niche.
I always have to think back to just after launch where you had either the Viper, Cobra, Python and Anaconda. The anaconda had all the firepower, but was a tub. The python lasted forever and had good firepower and turn rates, but wasn't very fast. The cobra could outrun everything and had its medium hard points in a good location and the viper outmaneuvered all but had trouble fitting and worse medium HP locations. So each had their role and while the python was the best all round, it wasn't the best in every category. And the differences were close enough that pilots could easily make up the difference.
Guess I am just bitter and wearing rose tinted glasses.

 

[Morbad]

I understand that the FDL would be a superior combatant, but it could still be so without also being more maneuverable/faster than say a Viper. It would give the viper (and other ships) a niche.

A fully engineered combat-fit Viper III (with standard drives) is slightly faster than a similarly well considered FDL setup. It also accelerates better and has a much smaller profile. It's almost never going to win a 1v1 against an FDL piloted by someone of vaguely similar skill, but it's not a sitting duck and I think it does still have a niche, though that niche is much reduced from the early game when the Viper III was still one of the top combat vessels.

One of the inevitable effects of having a dozen ships for each vague 'role' is that some of them are going to be decisively outclassed by others.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Don't put enhanced drives on a Viper III...you compromise one of the Viper's key advantages (awesome vertical/lateral thrust...EPTs have an inferior acceleration multiplier outside of forward/reverse that isn't listed) and too many compromises are needed to get forward speed significantly above that available with standard thrusters.

Cascade torps don't make the Viper III a threat. Six is just barely enough to knock out a larger thermal resist shield gen...which then leaves you with no weapons to do anything else.

All other things being equal, the FDL is essentially always going to be a superior combatant to the Viper III. I don't see any particular issue with this, as the Viper III is a much smaller and cheaper ship that was always intended to be lower-tier. That doesn't mean the Viper doesn't still have utility or that preference isn't a valid reason to choose the ship.

Not to mention that Enhanced Performance Thrusters take a massive hit in Optimal Mass. I conducted a test with Grade 5 Dirty Drives on both 3A and 3A Enhanced thrusters on both. Viper Mk3 with about 1200 Armor w a full loadout. Optimal Multipliers were 133% on 3A and 152% on Enhanced. Result was 530 boost on 3A and 420ish on Enhanced.

Enhanced are much better on a courier with strong shields or a I eagle.

 

[Torashuu]

@Morbad
Yeah, that is simple statistics, you get more options but the number of correct choices remains constant (the number of 'roles' doesn't change).

So how do you think the iCourier compares? It probably has the same issue as a viper in that it is at a big disadvantage due to its limited firepower. The Vulture doesn't really outmaneuver anything except the big 3.
I guess I'll have to pick your brain on one of pvp discords from the other thread, forum posts are a bit clumsy.

Edit:
@Replicant
So basically, don't worry about weight so much on a viper, slap on regular 3A's and some slabs of armor, your agility comes from lateral acceleration/speed anyway. Turn rates aren't great either so midrange/long range combat to make good use of the small frontal profile I guess? Good lateral acceleration -> change lateral thrust direction often/random -> use sudden rolls.

 

[The Replicated Man]

@Morbad
Yeah, that is simple statistics, you get more options but the number of correct choices remains constant (the number of 'roles' doesn't change).

So how do you think the iCourier compares? It probably has the same issue as a viper in that it is at a big disadvantage due to its limited firepower. The Vulture doesn't really outmaneuver anything except the big 3.
I guess I'll have to pick your brain on one of pvp discords from the other thread, forum posts are a bit clumsy.

Edit:
@Replicant
So basically, don't worry about weight so much on a viper, slap on regular 3A's and some slabs of armor, your agility comes from lateral acceleration/speed anyway. Turn rates aren't great either so midrange/long range combat to make good use of the small frontal profile I guess? Good lateral acceleration -> change lateral thrust direction often/random -> use sudden rolls.

Exactly.

In regards to weapon loadouts I have found 1 Class 1 Railgun with Feedback cascade and 2 Long Range Pulses with a seeker/dumbfire rack works well. or a dual rail/pulse setup works well too

Kinetic weapons are ok but you run out of ammo way to often

 

[Torashuu]

Very close to my fav PvE loadout, 2 small bursts (yes I know they are inefficient at every level), Super pen LR c2 rail, g1 rapid fire Dumbfires with Penetrator warheads.

Was quite partial to the shock cannons in Beta, though they lacked the ammo reserves to deal with bigger ships. The ripped right through small ones though...

WRT the small railgun, you only use it to cancel SCBs? To save Capacitor/heat? Or you just let rip?

 

[The Replicated Man]

Very close to my fav PvE loadout, 2 small bursts (yes I know they are inefficient at every level), Super pen LR c2 rail, g1 rapid fire Dumbfires with Penetrator warheads.

Was quite partial to the shock cannons in Beta, though they lacked the ammo reserves to deal with bigger ships. The ripped right through small ones though...

WRT the small railgun, you only use it to cancel SCBs? To save Capacitor/heat? Or you just let rip?

The small railgun has Grade 5 Long Range mod on it to cancel banks. It really helps when fighting a larger ship. Takes about 2 hits to cancel a 5A bank

 

[Morbad]

So how do you think the iCourier compares? It probably has the same issue as a viper in that it is at a big disadvantage due to its limited firepower.

The firepower isn't much different from a Viper, a little worse, if anything, and the Viper has better hardpoint convergence, but the Courier is almost untouchable due to it's extreme speed.

The Vulture doesn't really outmaneuver anything except the big 3.

You mean Viper?

I disagree. The Viper is still one of the more maneuverable ships in the game; almost nothing has better vertical and lateral thrust than the Viper III. The rotationals are far more modest, but still more than acceptable with modded drives. All in all, the Viper III flies a lot like the pre-buff FDL, except it's got about half the drift. That said, if you can't or don't like to make heavy use of vertical and lateral thrusters, then the Viper probably isn't for you.

Here the lightweight (580m/s boost with standard DD5s + increased optimal mass experimental) Viper III that I was messing around with in beta:
[video=youtube;EbJLCRPX9RI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbJLCRPX9RI[/video]

There is a bit of PvP in the first 10 minutes or so before I head to a RES. The weapon loadout I was testing is highly suboptimal (and bugged), but I felt maneuverability and durability were quite solid, all things considered.

 

[Torashuu]

Thanks for the comments.

Nah I meant the Vulture, but I realized my vulture experience is all pre engineers where its low top speed was a bit of an issue. I'd guess DD5 fixes that quite adequately. (Building something like this I guess: https://eddp.co/u/ALu8KTM2 )

Back to a viper, something like this?
https://eddp.co/u/J4xjPujl
Not so sure about the HRP engineering, just all HD? Or not worth it to engineer?

Do the sensors matter? I usually just go with D rated to save power and weight.

 

[Morbad]

Nah I meant the Vulture, but I realized my vulture experience is all pre engineers where its low top speed was a bit of an issue. I'd guess DD5 fixes that quite adequately.

DD5s apply to all ships mostly equally and the relative performance of the Vulture didn't change much. It was always a bit slower than the FDL or Viper, but also one of the most agile vessels in the game...all that still holds true.

Back to a viper, something like this?
https://eddp.co/u/J4xjPujl
Not so sure about the HRP engineering, just all HD? Or not worth it to engineer?

Do the sensors matter? I usually just go with D rated to save power and weight.

I use one of the class 3 slots for an MRP and the class 1 & 2s for smaller kinetic and explosive resistant HRPs to make sure I have solid all-round resistances without sacrificing hull integrity. The class 3 HRP is HD.

Anything other than D rated sensors typically isn't worth the mass on a PvP vessel.

 

[Torashuu]

wrt Vulture, you are right, I was being slow (pun intended).

About HRPs, don't you want equal resistances, rather than strong kin/exp with thermal gap? And raw HP vs PA's? Or is the weight penalty too great?
HD gives more total resists (max 45% vs +20% combined) and extra HP compared to specific boosts, right?

Going all HD gives me more eHP in all damage types at the cost of 0.6 tons, which at this point doesn't seem terribly handicapping.

 

[StiTch]

Surprising lack of reference to the iCourier here.

Very forgiving ship if you prefer smaller vessels going into PvP; it has a very small hit profile but with the shields of a medium ship, very workable set of hardpoints provided you are happy with at least one fixed weapon (on bottom), 4 utility slots, more internal slots than you'll likely use, a strong natural speed coupled with low hull mass...it's basically the most difficult ship to destroy if its pilot doesn't want to be destroyed.

 

[sewerratuk]

Surprising lack of reference to the iCourier here.

Very forgiving ship if you prefer smaller vessels going into PvP; it has a very small hit profile but with the shields of a medium ship, very workable set of hardpoints provided you are happy with at least one fixed weapon (on bottom), 4 utility slots, more internal slots than you'll likely use, a strong natural speed coupled with low hull mass...it's basically the most difficult ship to destroy if its pilot doesn't want to be destroyed.

Last time I took one to a CG I was told I was a UK slang word for a cigarette for flying one. So yeah, they are fun and make some people really salty because they can't destroy it, double plus

 

[Morbad]

wrt Vulture, you are right, I was being slow (pun intended).

About HRPs, don't you want equal resistances, rather than strong kin/exp with thermal gap? And raw HP vs PA's? Or is the weight penalty too great?
HD gives more total resists (max 45% vs +20% combined) and extra HP compared to specific boosts, right?

Going all HD gives me more eHP in all damage types at the cost of 0.6 tons, which at this point doesn't seem terribly handicapping.

You want as little mass and most integrity as practical, and as high resistances as possible. Thermal, kinetic, then explosive is the order I prioritize resistances on smaller vessels. I generally consider bulkhead upgrades too heavy to bother with on a Viper, which is why I use explosive and kinetic resistant smaller HRPs along with either heavy duty or thermal resist armor on the default lightweight alloys.

Rails will be the prime threat you'll face and they are 70% thermic/30% kinetic damage. Plasma is a threat, but not to the same degree as it's much harder to land plasma on a Viper.

If you are comfortable with the heavier setup, then you can go with reactive and all HD HRPs.

Do note that I'm using 3.0 blueprints as my basis for recommendations as it should go live before too long.

 

[Torashuu]

Ah ok, I was going by the presumption of slapping on reactive surface composites.

@stitch
What would you put on your courier then? And what targets would you not run from?

 

[nosleepdemon]

I fly a hull tank DBS, it's great until you get locked on by pack hounds, then your guns break.

I can't settle on an optimal weapon loadout, it's all very situational. Everyone raves about feedback cascade but I have not fought anyone recently who has banked. Biweaves with fast regen and module / hull protection is very common however, so I've been mucking around with focussed pulse lasers and penetrator rails. Two focussed particle accelerators also work well. I feel like you really want at least one missile rack or torpedo, depending on if you are dueling or ganking. Generally, I have found smaller ships to just not pack enough ammo to kill anything bigger than themselves.