PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Viper2kUK]

There's a lot with what Novo's said that I go along with, it is open after all and there should be consequences and benefits for one an all.

I know there are groups and individuals that are in open are purely there to lick up the salt from your face but I hope we all understand that in open, even if we're in a group / individual,l no matter how long we've been playing the game for - we can all be destroyed and it's up to us the individuals to determine the types of ships, weapons and abilities that will allow us to survive and stive in an arena that is by definition designed to be hostile to all.

I'm sure there's some martial arts proverb that states, don't overestimate your worth because the next opponent could kick your hiney.

I have a personal mantra - if someone comes along trying to kick your door in, find out where they live and blow their house down.

I might have issues though

V2k.

 

[kofeyh]

Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy play the game in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort overly fixated distraction.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Fixed that for you. The TLDR is that Frontier introduced a game with player-based combat, and then did not create a constructive environment for it, nor set boundaries, and then pleaded the fifth when they realised the natives were restless.

That's it. A core function of the game, left alone for 3+ years. That people want to continue to hold everyone, except the developer, responsible, is just the icing on the cake at this point.

edited: this is no longer worth my time or energy to debate; it clearly hasn't been for Frontier.

 

[Spacecat]

It needs to have a PROPER arena system.
*cough CQC, cough*

 

[Raumfahrer Spiff]

I'll answer OP's question with another question. Why are some players only interested in PvP? And for that matter only PvE?

For me, especially because all modes and instances are sharing the same galactic BGS, this game is so much more than just a PvP or PvE game.

When I'm playing in open, NPCs are just slower, dumber people, and players are just more dangerous and unpredictable NPCs. I don't seek out PvP for PvP's sake, it just happens when my goals directly conflict with that of another character, who just so happens to be a player.

This game isn't just an exploration game, in the same way that it is not just a combat or just a trading/economy game. It's a Milky Way simulation game. Part of that simulation being a central hub of humanity dropped in a vast void of lawless space. Part of that hub of humanity being agents (player or NPC) who don't want you to accomplish your goals. We can certainly play by only focusing on the activities we like, but as part of the whole simulation (especially in Open) we can't pretend that those other aspects don't, or shouldn't, exist just because they don't fit our schemes.

I think the main reason PvP is not as popular here as it is in other similar games is because the balance is so far out of whack.

Meta-PvPers far outclass even the most dangerous NPCs, while their player targets typically very much don't. They need to either nerf the combat ships, or buff all the other ships, probably a bit of both, to shorten (not close!) the gap.

When someone is fighting in a mid-sized, decently outfitted non-combat ship, the other player should never really be too afraid of dying, but that doesn't mean that non-combat ships should be inherently, excessively fragile. They should be able to try and put up enough of a fight long enough for a security response to give them a decent chance of escaping. Of course they could just run every time, but only ever having the option to immediately run just doesn't make for very enjoyable PvP encounters. There should be specialist type-locked module compartments, just like the military ones we've got now, that enable people to make purpose-built PvE/multipurpose ships that can still have respectable defensive solutions so it doesn't hold together like wet toilet paper against G5 Frags. While long fights can be tedious, short fights are equally unfun for the victims, and I can see a lot of room for improvement in making the playing field a bit more reasonable.

As long as people keep getting destroyed in 40 seconds or less, people will keep swearing off PvP.

 

[CMDR Space Jam]

The reason why ED, and indeed the other games of this type, are so popular seems to be that they represent a sort of "life simulator." Since none of us are going to be alive in 3304, or any time when such technology can potentially exist, this is why many of us play the game, essentially to pretend we're living life as a spaceship pilot, who might discover raxxla. Put another way, I don't think there were a lot of pirates rolling around the Caribbean in the 17th century going "gee, nobody is interested in fighting our ship, all these merchantmen run away and then they get all upset when we chase them down and steal their stuff."

I come from a background of MOBA games. Plenty of violence to go around, testing your mettle against human opponents, trying different playstyles and builds. It was all there. Elite is my first MMO. What drew me to Elite Dangerous was the fact that it didn't look like that kind of game, in general. (and if I did want it, there was CQC, woohoo!) Counting the broad categories of trading, mining, exploring, and combat, all of which can be done rewardingly in open (to various degrees), fighting deliberately is roughly one-quarter of the game. Divide that into PVE and PVP fighting, and PVP comes in at about 1/8th the game. And since there's no separation of player levels, you need a high-end, engineered ship or the whole thing seems somewhat futile. So the other 7/8ths are primarily is why I play: it's like truck simulator and flight simulator, but in spaaaaaace, and with other folks around, some (but not even the majority) of whom will try to shoot you.

Bottom line (and in answer to the question in the title of the thread), I like this game, but if I'm looking to get into a fight just because, hey, virtual fighting is fun, I go play the MOBAs. It's fairer (no rngineers), takes less time and effort to get into a match, and I don't have to eat the rebuy, because that's how it should be.

o7

J

 

[Chaparral]

Imo pvp in ED is embryonic relative to its conception in other mmos.

The design of isolated p2p instancing, in which one player can essentially force another into combat irrespective of gearing and skill is curious as a design choice if it is to encourage broad based pvp as a playstyle. Severe penalties for new players (rebuys, mission reward losses, open mission penalties) does not foster embracing and learning the skills of pvp for any but the most motivated pvp oriented player.

Furthermore, creating specific mechanics through the engineers that prevent player escape is also an interesting design choice. Imo, since the tools of piracy (dribbling cargo by inadequate limpets) are so poorly executed, it almost seems that these specific engineering mechanics are meant to encourage ganking. A new player to the game, or a player that has any exposure to the process of interdiction, shield shutdown, thruster shutdown, FSD shutdown through available media would certainly come to the conclusion that the type of pvp on offer in ED is very different than that on offer in other games.

As has been pointed out by many other posters, the disparity created between novices and vets in pvp engagements is compounded by the engineering enhancements. In other mmo's with pvp and wvw elements, level scaling and gear balancing features exist. This does not mean that no gear advantage can exist - certainly clever gear and skill meta builds evolve that can result in novice players being at a substantial disadvantage. However, the basis is uniform - so in theory - balance can be achieved. That is not the case in Elite.

Imo, if pvp were to be more widely accessible in Elite there would have to be significant design changes. I don't think those changes will come.

Basic considerations would be:

1) PVP and WVW zones (not just cqc) that can be enjoyed by all level of players (gear scaling, minimal death penalties).
2) Meaningful rewards for PVP and WVW participation (credits, faction standing, ranks, titles, skins, ship access etc.) .
3) Better multiplayer instancing in pvp and wvw locations.

I personally would hope these changes would be made available - but past design choices by FDEV do not suggest that is the case.

Imo, many ED players that may have participated in pvp and wvw in other games, will not be willing to do so in ED because of fundamental design choices by FDEV concerning instancing and gear balance.

It's really a shame. Oh well.

 

[gribley]

new engineers are going to put EVERYONE on an even playing field. the days of thousands of G5 rolls for a thruster is pretty much over. honestly the unballance complaints are about to become redundant. and as someone who has rolled thousands of times for 2 PvP ships that's a welcome change.
i just hope that power-play PvP will be looked after.

 

[kofeyh]

It needs to have a PROPER arena system.
*cough CQC, cough*

No; CQC is a fast paced combat standalone. It should really have always remained standalone, and FTP. It would have been a good second platform for Frontier. It died because they just assumed what was provided was enough; due to endless matchmaking issues (at the time) as well as a lack of a MMR style progression system it really just died out.

This has nothing to do with player-based combat within ED itself. Pretending one, solves the other, isn't constructive. Both should be vibrant communities. Neither are. That's on Frontier. It always will be. CQC had the potential to become a very successful MOBA-like. Lot's of weapon types with different stats to create a sense of a number of strategies, maps that had combinations of defend/ hold, as well as pure deathmatch.

That's where it's true strength could have been. A bunch of fighters, a bunch of hardpoint options, different game modes. Endless possibilities; with an MMR style system that helps build progression and so on. We'd end up with two very different games, each with highly engaged players.

So much potential here, for Frontier. It's unfortunate that it was just tough for them to find engagement and an ability to feed elite CQC to make that amazing, as well as feed elite dangerous. Arguably, they needed an entire team just for CQC. With each feeding each other enhancements. The unrealised potential in Elite, is actually a little staggering. And has been sobering to realise.

 

[Insane4un]

There is a lot of reasons for it. If you look at the game core mechanics.. PvP is just a gimick. It never was, but can be a complete game mechanic in core of it. But it is not at this moment. For now it is just.. well.. possibility. Nothing more.

PvP will be a thing if PowerPlay become PvP oriented mechanic as well as BGS. For now PvP in these are optional at best.

Also time consuming. PvP need just too much time to be worth it.

FD could also implement CQC V 2.0 with all ships in game available to use any time without enginers. But after huge CQC V 1.0 fail.. i doubt that they would even try.

So main reasons for PvP being not so popular is:

1) Not a single meaningfull reason for it

2) Not a single core mechanic for it

3) Not a single respect to our time in it

4) Power creep

5) There is too damn high difference between PvE and PvP loadouts. (which could be fixed by simply allowing us to have inventory on a ship, so we can deploy some modules for PvP instead of PvE any moment we want.)

6) FD don't really care much about PvP as a core mechanic

 

[Jethzk]

Getting a ship competitive is too time consuming. Let's hope the new engineer system makes it possible.

 

[gribley]

There is a lot of reasons for it. If you look at the game core mechanics.. PvP is just a gimick. It never was, but can be a complete game mechanic in core of it. But it is not at this moment. For now it is just.. well.. possibility. Nothing more.

PvP will be a thing if PowerPlay become PvP oriented mechanic as well as BGS. For now PvP in these are optional at best.

Also time consuming. PvP need just too much time to be worth it.

FD could also implement CQC V 2.0 with all ships in game available to use any time without enginers. But after huge CQC V 1.0 fail.. i doubt that they would even try.

So main reasons for PvP being not so popular is:

1) Not a single meaningfull reason for it

2) Not a single core mechanic for it

3) Not a single respect to our time in it

4) Power creep

5) There is too damn high difference between PvE and PvP loadouts. (which could be fixed by simply allowing us to have inventory on a ship, so we can deploy some modules for PvP instead of PvE any moment we want.)

6) FD don't really care much about PvP as a core mechanic

i am a dedicated power-play PvP'er supporting the empire. i take regular trips into federation space looking for feds, and if i see one flying ANYWHERE i will almost always try and attack.

further PvP is an important part of Powerplay. killing opposing merit farmers or killing their fortification haulers is a major part of being successful.

the requirements to be in a control/home system is an extremely bad mechanic. its not like we stop supporting X power the moment we leave the area of conflict.

 

[Insane4un]

i am a dedicated power-play PvP'er supporting the empire. i take regular trips into federation space looking for feds, and if i see one flying ANYWHERE i will almost always try and attack.

further PvP is an important part of Powerplay. killing opposing merit farmers or killing their fortification haulers is a major part of being successful.

the requirements to be in a control/home system is an extremely bad mechanic. its not like we stop supporting X power the moment we leave the area of conflict.

Do you understand the meaning of "popular" word?

My english is suck, but even i understand the meaning of it.

PvP never was even remotely meaningfull to Power Play. You can win it by Private Group. That is it. This is a reality. Deal with it. Same thing with anything in this game. You can even "win" so called PvP by.. You know by what. And if you think that it is not "win".

There is like 70% of player base who think it is.

 

[gribley]

Basically because there are huge differences in the capabilities of ships, even without engineering, which makes combat hopelessly unbalanced. There's no contest, so what's the point?

It doesn't help that most PVP people (at least those I've encountered) want to PVP against unarmed exploration ships in their cutter for the lols.

The asymmetry kills it.

the new system makes it laughably easy to get a perfect PvP ship, and escaping from a gank has always been laughably easy for even the slightly competent.
if someone doesn't want to put any effort into avoiding or escaping ganks, or making their ships sturdy enough to take a few hits then open is not the place for them.

 

[gribley]

Do you understand the meaning of "popular" word?

My english is suck, but even i understand the meaning of it.

PvP never was even remotely meaningfull to Power Play. You can win it by Private Group. That is it. This is a reality. Deal with it. Same thing with anything in this game. You can even "win" so called PvP by.. You know by what. And if you think that it is not "win".

There is like 70% of player base who think it is.

some scumbags will always operate in solo or private group. the fact that you can do powerplay in solo private is pretty disgusting really, but that's reality until F-dev fixes it. all major powerplay groups i know of have extremely strict rules about only doing powerplay activities in open.
and hey, we like it, it appears you don't.
why not give us the tools to do PP PvP and you can have no part in it by not pledging. everyone is happy.

 

[Insane4un]

some scumbags will always operate in solo or private group. the fact that you can do powerplay in solo private is pretty disgusting really, but that's reality until F-dev fixes it. all major powerplay groups i know of have extremely strict rules about only doing powerplay activities in open.
and hey, we like it, it appears you don't.
why not give us the tools to do PP PvP and you can have no part in it by not pledging. everyone is happy.

Until Fdev fixes it? Oh. The hope is strong with this one.. After 3 years.. Oh, you really belive that "major powerplay groups are folowing extremely rare strict rules about open only powerplay"? Do i really have to capture them on some video how they are logging near the station from solo/private to Open so their "extremely rare strict rules" would make sense?

There is no real PvP in this game. Sadly. It is all a gimick. Just like multicrew. Half done, and completely forgotten.

 

[Mohrgan]

some scumbags will always operate in solo or private group. the fact that you can do powerplay in solo private is pretty disgusting really, but that's reality until F-dev fixes it. all major powerplay groups i know of have extremely strict rules about only doing powerplay activities in open.
and hey, we like it, it appears you don't.
why not give us the tools to do PP PvP and you can have no part in it by not pledging. everyone is happy.

I wonder how much the PvP Community themselves are the reason some people don't like PvP? I wouldn't want to spend a minute of my gaming time with a player that can spew this kind of trash.

 

[crushdepth]

some scumbags will always operate in solo or private group. the fact that you can do powerplay in solo private is pretty disgusting really, but that's reality until F-dev fixes it. all major powerplay groups i know of have extremely strict rules about only doing powerplay activities in open.
and hey, we like it, it appears you don't.
why not give us the tools to do PP PvP and you can have no part in it by not pledging. everyone is happy.

Take a look at the Powerplay section of the forums. It's amazingly unpopular.

 

[Bryan K]

I wonder how much the PvP Community themselves are the reason some people don't like PvP? I wouldn't want to spend a minute of my gaming time with a player that can spew this kind of trash.

This. Well, and all the new players getting seal-clubbed in Eravate. Not really a good first impression.

 

[CaptainSeriousFun]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts...

...Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

This is correct. We're here to enjoy, explore and engage the galaxy. In the course of that experience, PvP will occasionally come up. Not central to the experience at all. To be frank, never has been. I'm '84, and I was fine with this iteration being multiplayer, as long as I didn't HAVE to deal with it. I don't. Mobius on occasion, private groups on occasion, Open very rarely, Solo fairly often. We're all good. This is NOT a game that needs PvP or the twitchy among us to survive, or even thrive. It reminds me of the moves you might make as an Exec. Dir. of a public space which adhere to your values but at first seem to anger alot of people...then you find out there was a silent majority of folks who thank you behind the scenes...that the loud "majority" was a vocal minority...that's the PvP situation in Elite. I think that even if the PvPers aren't a clear minority of the active playerbase, they are an overwhelming minority of the potential playerbase. That is, if E: D knew how to market itself correctly, you'd see ten new players to gaming PERIOD joining this experience for every PvPer you lost in anger for Frontier not forcing their lifestyle.

 

[Roybe]

...because the PVP is not what people expect.

The whole game revolves around the influence of all players on the BGS. This occurs because of the movement of PVE trophies, whether cargo, passengers, missions...etc. almost everything we do creates opportunities within the game...whether we desire them, or not. What is great about this game is if something occurs in the game we do not desire, we have the opportunity to fight against it...whether in 'modes' or cross platform. We can PVP against someone doing something we do not desire...by moving more PVE trophies than they do..wherever they are doing it.

What does not move anything in the universe...is pew pew PVP...by design.

So why is PVP not popular in the game? It is...for those that understand how it works. What is not interesting is shooting at other players.

In short, PVP (pew pew type) sucks in this game because it is a disconnected activity, with no game provided rewards, and you must admit that the amount of time wasted PVE-ing, to shoot someone in the face is pretty disheartening...once you add the Engineer 'gameplay' and the new C&P system (that has lots more sticks than carrots)...it becomes quite obvious why the state of PVP is what it is...and that it will never get to a point where it will be considered 'enjoyable', by those that subscribe to such things.

For those that carry hope in their pocket to take out and rub whenever they need to be consoled for their PVP...look around...and see the game for what it is. There is no hope, that chip you are rubbing is going to disappear, just like all the PVP players that were around at the beginning of the game did. Maybe you can start rubbing that other bit of hope in your back pocket...you know, Star Citizen.