DBOBE and 'the grind'

[geendeen]

During the Beta in fall 2014 i watched countless videos with interviews of DBOBE.

Talking of DBOBE, is there a known release date for 'Sir David'? It has to be soon™. And would sound just right, wouldn't it.​

In one interview 'the grind' was mentioned as part of game design, i tried to find that interview ever since, but sadly could not find it, yet.
The best i could find was this video, which i think is also quite interesting ('grind' at 3m19):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x8qsHy43NU&t=3m19s

Not to be misunderstood: i am not personally for or against 'the grind', i just find it very interesting when it is mentioned matter-of-factly in relation to game design.

Has one of you a better source of DBOBE addressing game design and grind?

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Some people often say "grind is in the mind", but the fact is - game developers set out to intentionally create a game that is grind based, and as you pointed out developers actually discuss that in a matter of fact manner. Other Frontier developers have also discussed this on occasion. Bottom line grind is a part of the game, that is a fact, and it has intentionally been designed that way.

Opinion comes into play when discussing if that is a good or bad thing.

 

[lysan]

Grind can be fun, and it can be boring, collecting materials on planet surfaces is a grind, but it can be fun too.
Jumping from star to star is a grind, however you can only do it in one way, and the only way to do it, and not go insane is to watch netflix.

Collection of materials can be done in many ways, star jumping cannot.

that's just one example.

 

[trollson]

If 'grind' is a player choice then its up to the individual to engage in it or not. Personally I've not felt the need to do so in Elite - I set different goals and vary them at a whim.

If you want a game that isn't grindy then keep score numbers hidden from players (no progress bars), and diminish returns from repetition. But then you need to give players something to do -- to keep them entertained and playing. In the end letting players chase numbers is an easy option.

 

[Oss133]

Ain't nothing wrong with a little bump n grind

 

[MarkAusten]

Ain't nothing wrong with a little bump n grind

Especially to rock n roll!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Some people often say "grind is in the mind", but the fact is - game developers set out to intentionally create a game that is grind based, and as you pointed out developers actually discuss that in a matter of fact manner. Other Frontier developers have also discussed this on occasion. Bottom line grind is a part of the game, that is a fact, and it has intentionally been designed that way.

Opinion comes into play when discussing if that is a good or bad thing.

I think it comes from completely different angle though.

ED is space commander's life simulator. And that's how it rolls, for it's ills and strengths.

Not everybody wants a life simulator. Somebody just want to trash ships in arena. But again, very specific ships, very specific arena, and so on and so forth.

Main FD goal has been finding solid balance that login session - hours casual commander spends in game - feels fulfilled. So it takes down some pirates, gets tons of missions done, gets rewarded, either with money or influence or rep, and it feels good.

As ED has no sub there's no point to stretch out game with intention just to make it longer. However, it is slow, evolutionary process. Always have been. Always been intended.

Since alpha I have said FD will have trouble with people finding all this not very engaging and calling it grind. And I think it is highly subjective and in most cases not very helpful feedback.

However, there's lot of data points that can be extracted from subjective feedback if it concentrates on shortcomings of gameplay without sorting game into categories of 'grindness'.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

In short, 'grind' is what comes in mind. It does not invalidate complain, or issues.

What's important however is those issues more general, are they something that game contributes to, or it is mismarketing, or it is something developer can mitigate.

Just trashing or approaching game because it is a 'grind' is really just wearing your issues and complains on your sleeve. It is highly subjective approach and really doesn't contribute to debate. If all you look for confirmation that you ain't only one disappointed...well, welcome to Internet, but that's how far any debate will go.

 

[iFred]

Some people often say "grind is in the mind", but the fact is - game developers set out to intentionally create a game that is grind based, and as you pointed out developers actually discuss that in a matter of fact manner. Other Frontier developers have also discussed this on occasion. Bottom line grind is a part of the game, that is a fact, and it has intentionally been designed that way.

Opinion comes into play when discussing if that is a good or bad thing.

And - I might add that we all knew it beforehand.

Everyone knew it. No excuses.

 

[Ophion]

Some people often say "grind is in the mind", but the fact is - game developers set out to intentionally create a game that is grind based, and as you pointed out developers actually discuss that in a matter of fact manner. Other Frontier developers have also discussed this on occasion. Bottom line grind is a part of the game, that is a fact, and it has intentionally been designed that way.

Opinion comes into play when discussing if that is a good or bad thing.

I'm reading this but instead of mine I hear your voice in my head!

What sorcery is this??

 

[Seizewell Warrior]

Most rpg style games have an element of grind, which you can either perform as part of other tasks or use the game mechanism to build your character in order to survive.

A classic example is Fallout 4. You're not going to leave Sanctuary for Diamond City until you have a few levels and skills built up and the best way to do that is... Scrap all the wood you can find then speed place fenceposts for XP, scrap rinse and repeat until most of the wood is used up. It's repetitive and time consuming and if you have idiot savant the "proc" sound gets annoying, but it serves a purpose. Likewise in ED, finding your way to Ceos/Sothis then spending a day or three stacking missions and doing the shuffle can be mind numbing - but at the end you have money and rep for a better ship or better parts on your existing ship.

 

[Winterwalker]

Works pretty simply for me .. Your ship is worth whatever grind it took you to get it. So when I'm on your six, knocking hell out of your shields, your adrenalin levels should match how much you don't want to see that rebuy screen. If you play a game for the adrenalin then, grind really is the mind; Imagine how boring combat would be without it.

 

[Truesilver]

The problem is that somewhere between Elite (1984) and Elite Dangerous 2.1 (2016) something was forgotten.

In 1984 there was no grind because all rewards (i.e. rank, and credits with which to buy ship upgrades) were achieved by doing the things you bought the game to do anyway. It wasn't grind, it was rewarded gameplay.

By 2016 somehow the concept had changed so that the most valuable rewards were achievable only by doing activities that had nothing to do with what most customers bought the game to do (like waiting for HGE USS to spawn, or doing inane repetitive missions, or driving a buggy in circles). No alternatives.

I welcome (indeed, started a successful "applause" thread about) Frontier's belated fixes to the above but the fundamental problem seems to me to be this:

Gameplay becomes 'grind' when it's a meaningless artificial sub-routine, not part of the player's preferred main gameplay. Contrary to the wisdom shown in 1984, that's not rewarding us for playing the main game. It's rewarding us for not playing the main game.

 

[Vardaugas]

Good grind gets you into the flow, bad grind fails to engage your mind and lets it wander, taking you out of the game.

 

[VR Cmdr Paine]

The problem with most MMO/RPG type games these days is that achievable grind has been replaced with RNG the ultimate grind.. Beyond 3.0 go's a long to way to fixing that at least for engineering.

THANKS FD o7

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Before 2.1 earnings might have been slow and progress kinda sluggish, but that is nothing compared to the ridiculous notion to make me grind it out to simply get where I was already before. In vanilla I could pretty much do anything that was offered (not the anaconda surprise spam maybe), in 2.0 even enhanced with planetary content.

That looked promising, but then I got AI pimpship spam. Now I'm supposed to hit some upgrade button a couple of 100 times after collecting some thousand materials over a month. Just to get where I was before? Why would I do that?

 

[WR3ND]

I don't know that you'd get much satisfaction from the game by racing to the perceived end-game content. I play the game as a survivalist/adventurer/explorer and get more satisfaction picking up the bits I want as I go. In general, I would like to see more meat on the bone of gameplay, but I hope this will come with future game content and expansion updates.

I get along well in my mostly non-Engineered small ships in general, but then I'm not particularly into the PVP meta. I don't have much need for credits at this point and playing as an independent pilot, I avoid the rank grinds. I'm mostly just enjoying the "end-game" in my own way in ways I find compelling. People can potentially do this in something like a decently outfitted Cobra Mk. III and get along well enough, so in this sense, a lot of the grind is optional and can be done at your leisure between everything else while playing the game.

 

[MajorHavoc]

Cannot help with video OP but I believe that this is just a side effect of 'open world' games generally (Elite being one the first). The larger the game world is the greater the effect, in ED the passage of time for instance is required to help the player experience the scale/size of real space. The travel limitations are quite deliberate. The time required to fully upgrade all of the ships should you wish to do so is now also increasing, more modules, more ships, more engineers. A completionists hell ! Not letting the player complete the 'game' requires a different mindset many struggle with I suppose.

 

[WR3ND]

Before 2.1 earnings might have been slow and progress kinda sluggish, but that is nothing compared to the ridiculous notion to make me grind it out to simply get where I was already before. In vanilla I could pretty much do anything that was offered (not the anaconda surprise spam maybe), in 2.0 even enhanced with planetary content.

That looked promising, but then I got AI pimpship spam. Now I'm supposed to hit some upgrade button a couple of 100 times after collecting some thousand materials over a month. Just to get where I was before? Why would I do that?

Did you reset your Commander account or something? You keep all your modules, and in the case of upgrading a tier 5 FSD in the new system, it's like 8 rolls on average to max it out. Or of course just use what you already have.

Upgrading your FSD from scratch to maxed out in the new system is about 15 rolls on average, assuming you have good rep with the Engineer.

...

But yeah, before the Engineers entirely, it was a more balanced* and fair** system. I think the new changes to the Engineers will help us get back closer to that somewhat at least.

*Players can see the drawbacks for each tier of an upgrade ahead of time and there is a reasonably attainable level cap.

**A players time and effort isn't needlessly wasted through no fault of their own on RNG based results, which could have lead to worse modules than what they started with.

...

I never had an issue with the AI ships after Engineers using non-Engineered ships myself. The lowest they ever got me down to was 51% hull on my multi-role combat/exploration Vulture.

 

[ilo]

By 2016 somehow the concept had changed so that the most valuable rewards were achievable only by doing activities that had nothing to do with what most customers bought the game to do (like waiting for HGE USS to spawn, or doing inane repetitive missions, or driving a buggy in circles). No alternatives.

Probably because back in 1984, in our minds, no one would think of doing 2000 rolls to increase that 1% of FSD optimised mass reduction some guys in 2016 think it is the ONLY way to go and play the game. This mental deviation even has a name, that was not know back then.

Even with the so called 'grind', people was still able to do 2000 rolls..