DBOBE and 'the grind'
- Thread starter geendeen
- Start date
It's only grind if it's boring.
I'm pretty disappointed with the attitude in the video TBH, deliberately basing your game design around 'grind' because 'the kids will do it' shows some very old school, out of date thinking and explains a lot of the criticisms of this game.
It's terrible, actually. Move over Braben, or get some young people on the team.
I'm pretty disappointed with the attitude in the video TBH, deliberately basing your game design around 'grind' because 'the kids will do it' shows some very old school, out of date thinking and explains a lot of the criticisms of this game.
It's terrible, actually. Move over Braben, or get some young people on the team.
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What is boring for you might not be boring for others. I haven't seen the "grind" yet. I see nothing wrong in it, and based on your first sentence it should be ok.
Ignoring the irrelevant arguments, the game design is as it is, there are other games that are not like this, I don't see what is wrong in having variety, apparently if it was for you all cars would be the same, we would all dress the same and we will even speak the same. Good luck.
ED is based on repetitive grind. Not a great start.
But, added to this, everything man-made looks the same in the 'galaxy'. There is very little variation in stations, bases, missions, everything.
(The way missions are presented is really not interesting).
This makes the grind even more boring. Great. Thanks FD.
But, added to this, everything man-made looks the same in the 'galaxy'. There is very little variation in stations, bases, missions, everything.
(The way missions are presented is really not interesting).
This makes the grind even more boring. Great. Thanks FD.
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d'Bobe, as it should be spelled, is a monicker of deep reverence. An OBE is no mere bauble and d'Bobe is no mere mortal.
That is all.
What's so different between modern games and ED?
Every game ever made is full of repetition. So what makes the repetition in ED a grind? Nobody seems to have one definitive answer to that question from what I have seen.
I have an answer for you: Repetition that is boring is a grind when it's boring. Repetition that is fun is not.
Hmm. It's can be hard to sum up (and I'm not gonna bother here) but this doesn't mean it's not there for all to see.
Repetition of a skill based and challenging task is not a grind. Repetition of a task requiring zero skill for an extrinsic reward ($$) is what counts as grind for me.
Unfortunatly, in ED the less skill a task requires, the more it pays. Which is why people percieve it as grindy. If the the hardest tasks where paying the most, grind talks would be gone.
Even better : make all task more skill based and tie pay ~ skill/difficulty better.
Thing is, if one plays the game for intrinsic rewards (fun) it's quite okay, till you need the credits to engage in what you like. That's when grinding is tempting : do I wait weeks/months to get the
credits to do X but doing stuff I quite like, or do I spend two boring evenings doing netflix passenger hauling and I'm set for life ?
Same goes for engineers : do I farm HGE's/Distro centers, or do I wait months doing my things and maybe get the materials I need ?
zero skill Smeaton runs were like 100M/h. Figthing a thargoid basilik/cyclop is much harder, yet pays what ? 2-5M/h before repairs...
The skill - payout balance is so bad it's silly.
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Repetition of a skill based and challenging task is not a grind. Repetition of a task requiring zero skill for an extrinsic reward ($$) is what counts as grind for me.
And you win the internet prize of the day, this is what it is all about, right there, well done Sir.
Challenge
Try killing a Deadly turreted Anaconda in an eagle without dying.
The grind
- farm millions to buy a corvette
- farm millions to spend in rank
- farm Elite rank to make sure you can visit al engineers
- farm materials to G5 all modules of such corvette, the cutter, and all the other ships
- keep farming materials because of that 0.02% DPS advantage everyone else is talking about.
- find a deadly anaconda and insta-kill it with one salvo.
- realise you are not flying an eagle and come to forums to say THE GAME IS NOT CHALLENGING
Try killing a Deadly turreted Anaconda in an eagle without dying.
The grind
- farm millions to buy a corvette
- farm millions to spend in rank
- farm Elite rank to make sure you can visit al engineers
- farm materials to G5 all modules of such corvette, the cutter, and all the other ships
- keep farming materials because of that 0.02% DPS advantage everyone else is talking about.
- find a deadly anaconda and insta-kill it with one salvo.
- realise you are not flying an eagle and come to forums to say THE GAME IS NOT CHALLENGING
So maybe introduce challenges that match the difficulty of killing an anaconda in an eagle for the engineered corvette owner ?
Thargoids are one good thing in that regard, but there are a crying need of more content providing adequate challenge for all points
on the power curve. The new assassination wing missions are quite good in that regard. Difficult even in a pimped ship. Pays 2M....
Agreed. Hence the reason why I change what I am doing so I don't get bored, hence the reason why I don't suffer from grind in the game.
It's there is you let it in my view.
I disagree. Having to do the same thing again and again in a row, that looks and feels the same no matter how complex and challanging it is will become a grind. If you keep having to do it, then it will become boring no matter what.
For me it's simple : If I repeat a complex and difficult action, it's because I like it (instrinsic reward). If that reward (fun) is gone (task became boring), then I do something else.
If there are no suitable tasks to keep me intrinsically intrested in the game, I playan other one. Usually, a complex/challenging task becomes boring if I mastered it.
Which means it's no longer challenging/difficult. Since it's now boring and easy, if I did it for fun I would stop (so no grind here). However, someone who keeps doing it past the point
the task became easy/boring for an extrinsic reward ($$) is now grinding. In that I 100% agree with you.
IMO difficulty/complexity are always a relative thing because at some point, either of two things will happen :
- You master it and it becomes routine / easy / boring.
- You can't get to master it, and you grow frustrated and move away from it.
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A lot of ED progression could be an order of magnitude more engaging, though.
The point is to recognise what can be achieved as a means for PvE progression.
In Total War Warhammer, for example, your units and characters level up by fighting really interesting battles. You do the fun thing to get the reward, in the process becoming more skilled at the fun thing. It's a win/win.
ED does have some equivalents, such as RES hunting or base raiding.
However, far too often the opportunity to provide a practice/reward tree has not (yet) been taken up.
For example, I would find it really cool to unlock better drives for my Courier by getting better at flying my Courier. Like by having to complete some kind of space or surface mission delivery thing in a given time, coping with increasingly difficult obstacles in the process. I don't mean supercruise, I mean piloting. Anyone remember a good racing game whereby successful time trialling unlocked better stuff you could then use in the Grand Prix? This is all very straightforward and popular because it works. By unlocking better drives you'd then make it possible to get a better time, potentially unlocking even better drives. This is a typical practice/reward tree.
Unfortunately far too often in ED the unlock is available - often, only available, subject to the incoming Materials Trader - by simply performing a single repetitive task over and over and over again, without using higher brain functions, nor fine motor control. Just clicking, basically, then waiting out a time gate, then clicking again. (It's usually slightly masked, but that's all it truly amounts to.)
I used the example above of racing but I've seen that many explorers would really like mechanics that reward them for actually getting better at exploring. I'm sure there are many other examples.
This is the thing with ED. I don't think it is about progression, but choices.
Again, choices.
That is because it is a level/progression based system whereas ED is not.
Again, this is about choice. Do you go for the tougher sites/raiding or go fot the easier one. It's not about progression.
Don't think it needs to as the game isn't truely progression based.
This is basically level/progression based and nothing about choice which in my view ED is all about.
This is all to do with what you choose to do in the game. But nearly all games are click with a mask. It's the masks which need to be more varied. I want a game that I can craft my own adventures from. Not a civilisation type game. If I want that kind of complexity I would be playing Civ6.
As an explorer, I would just like some mechanics that are just not puch button down and then point ship at a planet. Doesn't need to be purely skill based (some would be nice, but there is no need for a stupidly complex system), I just want it to be at least interesting visually and give me reasons to go, visit and land at a planet. Give me a reason to explore a planet, because at the moment there no reasons. Some managment would be nice too, such as sending drones out to distant planets/stars and so on. Being able to set waypoints within a system. But none of that is complex, but you could potentially get better at it by being more efficient.
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