Recommended HOTAS upgrade

[Sylow]

Being a HOTAS Warthog owner myself, I find it hard to believe anyone can find a significant flaw with that stick unless they happened to get a Friday build which can happen with ANY piece of hardware. There are always the odd-statistical outliers that slip through the net and the Warthog is of a very solid construction.

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Curiously enough, in terms of layout i find the Warthog not to be that great. A friend of mine has one (he's more into DCS than ED, though ) and i at some time played around a little with it. I found it a bit too "stiff", but that might be adjustable and sure is a matter of taste, but for me the button and switch arrangement is not ideal for ED.
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In pure terms of layout and arrangement the Saitek/Logitech X-56 is second to none in ED. Unfortunately i still can't really advise that stick. While my last one now already works since several months, i had so many quality issues and so many returns that i just can't recommend it.
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My current one also has issues, the sticks twist axis just doesn't zero correctly. Using a massive deadzone (about 30% of its range) solves the immediate problem, it just leaves an already inaccurate input even less accurate.
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So maybe, just maybe the newer Logitech products now have better quality. If they do, they are actually an awesone (although not utterly cheap) option. But if the quality issues still exist, you better put your Hands On Another Throttle And Stick.
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[nosleepdemon]

Anything but an X 52. I bought mine shortly after Elite came out and the build quality is just so, so bad. At this point, the dials on the throttle cause frequent jitter, and I have had to reconfigure some buttons away from the throttle as they were triggering randomly. Not great when you deploy an SCB at full shields and 100% heat.

So far, the issues I've had with it are:

* Broken B button flip cover (first day).
* Jitter on roll axis of joystick.
* Jitter on x/y knobs on the throttle.
* Jitter on the mini joystick.
* Ocassional loss of control of half the buttons on throttle.
* Random triggering of buttons on throttle.
* The WORST configuration software I have ever seen, which somehow is made yet more terrible by attempting to install any of its updates.

I will personally be buying a CH products stick and throttle when the time comes. I'm done with the cheap plastic rubbish Logitech et al put out. I'd class the 1600000000000M in there as well. I'd much rather have a "90s" style stick that works than a useless pile of LEDs.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Or Virpil Mongoos T50. Or the upcoming WarBRD... But, honestly, that is stupid money for most. You Having gone through a boat load of sticks (including a Warthog), I'd try and convince people that going straight for a VKB or Virpil will actually save money over time, however, I don't like my chances of success!

Oh, and yes, on a side note...

YET ANOTHER hardware thread in the wrong part of the forum, because the Hardware and Technical section is in Off-topic... Just sayin'...

If mods applied themselves to transferring Hardware and Tech threads with the same vigour as PvP threads to the newly created PvP section, I dare say Hardware and tech would end up NOT being off-topic...

Z...

I spent quite some time trying to find the right forum to post this in and didn't even think to look in 'Off Topic'...hence posting here. Still it hasn't been moved by a mod yet...

 

[Mohrgan]

I spent quite some time trying to find the right forum to post this in and didn't even think to look in 'Off Topic'...hence posting here. Still it hasn't been moved by a mod yet...

The Mods will move them if they are reported, or become a cause and catch their eye. Look at how long that "Why PvP isn't popular" thread stayed in the DD section.

 

[HecklerThrob]

I have owned an X52 Pro since my beginning of ED. Unfortunatly, the twist died during a PvP tournament after more than 2,5 years of extensive use .... forfeit for me.

So i bought an X56 Rhino because of all the buttons/hat/switch possibilities but ... what a regret !

The stick was sooooo hard to move due to frictions on the plastic base (yes, the base axis is in plastic, lol) that I tried to oïl it and sanded it, and even after that, it was still too hard that it was impossible to use with any fixed weapon. Of course the warranty was gone due to me sanding the base .... :-(

Maybe it was a default on my model but considering the price, this is not acceptable.
Quality was really poor and plastic really cheap.

Finally, I ended to throw it on the wall after many hours trying everything to smooth it, without result (yes, sometimes I can be very angry).

Guess what, i took another X52 Pro, did the throttle mod (remove the spring) and it is still a joy to fly with. So smooth !!!

I will never look back.

o7

 

[JesusOnEez]

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I'm still going to go for the T16000. The X52 just seems too much of a risk judging by all the broken ones flapping about. I get that there may be a problem with the twist to yaw mechanism on the T16000, but since my play style is pretty laid back (mostly trading/passenger/courier missions rather than combat ones), I'm not really going to be hammering the stick too much, especially with my play hours per week rocking in at about 5...stupid family get in the way of any fun.

I'll always have the T-Flight to fall back on if it goes belly up.

 

[DaveB]

I tried an X52 but can not recommend it due to compatibility issues with newer BIOS's and Operating Systems. If you don't have USB 3.0 then you will almost certainly be OK. If you have USB 3.0 on-board then there are no guarantees you will be able to get it to work reliably.

LOLwut? Mine's worked for me flawlessly on three different boards with on-board USB3.0 on all windows versions from 7 to 10 (I've had it longer than that but those were the versions covered by motherboards with onboard USB3.0) and with BIOSes of varying original vintage but all of them flashed to most current update applicable for the motherboard. Works just fine connected directly, works just fine connected through a hub.

Assuming Logitech address the build quality issues, when my X52 eventually dies or the OS evolves so far that it GENUINELY becomes incompatible I would probably replace it with a X56 or whatever has superseded the X56 in the range by that time, unless there's a stick of Virpl or Warthog quality out there with a twist axis and at a price point that wouldn't make buying three X56s and using them to death still competitive.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I'm still going to go for the T16000. The X52 just seems too much of a risk judging by all the broken ones flapping about. I get that there may be a problem with the twist to yaw mechanism on the T16000, but since my play style is pretty laid back (mostly trading/passenger/courier missions rather than combat ones), I'm not really going to be hammering the stick too much, especially with my play hours per week rocking in at about 5...stupid family get in the way of any fun.

I'll always have the T-Flight to fall back on if it goes belly up.

Yeah, its been an informative thread. I have an X52 Pro (3 years old now), that's on it way out. I got my money's worth, I guess, but also not exactly won over as a loyal customer, so I think I will pick up T16000M HOTAS on the way home tonight. Seems good product for the money. Might also look at getting the rudder pedals too (so the twist yaw might not be an issue).

 

[heretowatch]

I've got to highlight the Achilles's heel of the T.16000M: the yaw input the OP wants. The sensor for joystick twist uses a very cheap potentiometer. It will fail. Has on both of mine.

You can try to recalibrate.

You can pry the stick apart to clean the sensor.

Doesn't matter. You will have ghost yaw input jerking your ship to one side.

For me, the twist sensor died 11 months after I bought it. And I play Elite pretty casually.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I'm still going to go for the T16000. The X52 just seems too much of a risk judging by all the broken ones flapping about. I get that there may be a problem with the twist to yaw mechanism on the T16000, but since my play style is pretty laid back (mostly trading/passenger/courier missions rather than combat ones), I'm not really going to be hammering the stick too much, especially with my play hours per week rocking in at about 5...stupid family get in the way of any fun.

I'll always have the T-Flight to fall back on if it goes belly up.

The pot on the T16000M is really easy to replace if you can find one and aren't afraid of a soldering iron. So many people regard anything even slightly electronic as some sort of Indiana Jones McGuffins that causes a giant stone ball to roll at you if you remove the crystal skull, but the reality is that most joysticks are fundamentally simple affairs that are put together by people. That means that they can also be worked on by people.

LOLwut? Mine's worked for me flawlessly on three different boards with on-board USB3.0 on all windows versions from 7 to 10 (I've had it longer than that but those were the versions covered by motherboards with onboard USB3.0) and with BIOSes of varying original vintage but all of them flashed to most current update applicable for the motherboard. Works just fine connected directly, works just fine connected through a hub.

Assuming Logitech address the build quality issues, when my X52 eventually dies or the OS evolves so far that it GENUINELY becomes incompatible I would probably replace it with a X56 or whatever has superseded the X56 in the range by that time, unless there's a stick of Virpl or Warthog quality out there with a twist axis and at a price point that wouldn't make buying three X56s and using them to death still competitive.

It's not actually an OS issue - it's a USB specification compliance issue. I understand that the problem with USB3 and the x52/x56 is really down to which company the USB controller is made by, and which spec they follow. Intel have a... purist interpretation of the USB3 spec, and consequently their USB3 controllers (and those made by companies adhering to their implementation) tend not to play nicely with the x52. Microsoft's driver, on the other hand, is supposed to be a bit more lax with equipment that doesn't fully adhere to the USB2 specification, and consequently works much better with Saitek products. I've even read reports from people saying that uninstalling the manufacturer driver for their USB controller and installing MS' driver in its place fixed their issues with USB3 and Saitek products.

You've been lucky. I've had issues on two motherboards, although they weren't untreatable, and no issues on a further two. The x52 is still a crap stick though.

 

[GunnerBill]

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I'm still going to go for the T16000. The X52 just seems too much of a risk judging by all the broken ones flapping about. I get that there may be a problem with the twist to yaw mechanism on the T16000, but since my play style is pretty laid back (mostly trading/passenger/courier missions rather than combat ones), I'm not really going to be hammering the stick too much, especially with my play hours per week rocking in at about 5...stupid family get in the way of any fun.

I'll always have the T-Flight to fall back on if it goes belly up.

I suppose every product has it's dud's. I've been using my T16000m since January 2017 playing pretty much every night, so conservatively 750 hrs. No problems whatsoever with twist yaw. The trigger button sometimes double hits but that's it.

 

[NascentChemist]

I've started using the "switch roll to yaw" function to get more use out of the T.16000M. If your potentiometer ever fails and you don't do much combat, it's a great alternative that is very intuitive.

I'd still recommend the T.16000M, just be aware of that one flaw.

Regarding replacing the potentiometer, do you just need to match the resistance and contacts of the sensor? I've read that some people have difficulty finding a replacement.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Regarding replacing the potentiometer, do you just need to match the resistance and contacts of the sensor? I've read that some people have difficulty finding a replacement.

It's a pretty tight fit, so I'd guess that you'd need to find the same pot.

 

[NascentChemist]

It's a pretty tight fit, so I'd guess that you'd need to find the same pot.

True, I've taken the stick apart and opened the potentiometer before. Supposedly it can benefit from cleaning. I don't have much experience soldering, so I'm a little leery of it.

 

[Gutser]

Okay. First, sorry for my bad English and I had a long day. But here I want to be serious.

For the best cheap solution, get the 16000m.

If you want a damn pro product which bring your skill to the next level, Gunfighter with MCG grip. Nothing can beat this kind of quality and precision and it is modular for other grips in the future.

I'm really shocked that nobody talk about the gunfighter/vkb sim. And btw. throttle is imporant! The only possible on the market right now is ch because of the analog stick. Just this stick will let you turn more comfortable and faster as 90% of the player Base.

Grip: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2877

Base: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2464

 

[lenna]

The Warthog is not bad at all, it is great, actually, but the gimbal on the Viepil is a world ahead. Remember, the Warthog is close to a decade old design now, if memory serves, and it does suffer from a bit of stiction. It does still have my favourtie grip.

Z...

Age of a design should not go against it, the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro is probably older than the Warthog design wise. Same probably goes for the Thrustmaster HOTAS X.

 

[JohnRoberts]

ok, so I picked up a T16000M to replace my failing X52 Pro last night, and I'm very happy with it. Especially considering the price. Here's my first impressions, but bear in mind I'm a Voice Attack user, and I have a lot of less-frequently-used stuff on voice command:

T16000M advantages over X52 Pro:

+ Much nicer joystick feel, precision and tension.
+ Full analog 6 axes of control (rotation in right hand, translation in left)
+ Better (but not perfect) control distribution between left and right hand
+ Price
+ Software (actually you don't need to use any software, its entirely usable plug-and-play).
+ Somewhat more compact (size-wise)
+ Independant USB cables (not annoying teether), and cables are quite long.

X52 Pro over T16000M

+ Less tendency for the joystick base to tip (but i think either is better fixed down, somehow)
+ 2 hats on the joystick
+ Joystick finger guard is a comfortable place to rest fingers, off the trigger.
+ Matches in-game controls
+ Needs only a single USB port

 

[the100thmonkey]

+ Software (actually you don't need to use any software, its entirely usable plug-and-play).

With that said, you definitely should use the TARGET software - it's excellent, and gives you an amazing level of control over the stick and its behaviours of both the axes and buttons.

 

[evanevery]

The X-56 gets a lot of bad press but I've been very happy with mine. I've put many hundreds of hours on it over the last year and a half without issue. The yaw spring (joystick twist spring) finally broke a few days ago and Logitech sent me a whole brand new HOTAS (joystick and throttle) under their 2 year warranty. (I actually think the springless/centerless yaw was an advantage during combat!)

I'm also pretty sure the X-56 has the greatest number of buttons, joys, and rollers directly on the throttle and the joystick. This is important in VR because you really want as many controls as possible to be available without having to take your hands of the sticks. The X-56 Throttle has a good many buttons on the base, but I leave them unassigned as I don't want to be fumbling around to find them. (I also use Voice Attack but i'm worried that critical combat functions might be unreliably translated with all the screaming, cursing, crying, and sobbing during my combat episodes.) The X-56 has enough on-stick buttons to map pretty much everything you need...

I'ld buy another one (if I had to) in a heartbeat.

 

[GeneralIdea1964]

I still think the T-fight is such good value.
If you can put up with a few of the buttons having little 'feel', especially the main trigger and the side one you have to use with the side of your index finger.

I've got so used to it now I don't notice.

So my suggestion is if it ain't broke don't fix/change it.