never try to tell a forum user that their flying sucks. they are all permanently focused on the concept of "fly forwards in the blue zone with FA on"
Target Lock Breaker spamming needs adjusted ASAP
- Thread starter Miko
- Start date
Well, if you look closely, he wasn't flying in blue zone. His throttle was set a little below blue zone......
Why do people keep bringing up turrets with regards to TLB? Fire-at-will turrets essentially ignore TLB. They don't even need a functional sensor module to work (they have their own).
I save the small hardpoints for rails, due to their placement, and tend to use huge lasers as well. I put utility turrets in mediums and often large harpoints, due to those being outside that tight grouping made by the huge and small hardpoints.
Turrets also allow for a broader array of weapons than would normally be optimal with only two triggers. They are the only practical way to manage more than two vastly different projectile velocities.
Constant TLB renders slow projectiles unusable and limits high velocity ones to very short range, but it absolutely does not prevent a loadout that takes into account the existence of TLB from defending itself, even from multiple attackers.
I save the small hardpoints for rails, due to their placement, and tend to use huge lasers as well. I put utility turrets in mediums and often large harpoints, due to those being outside that tight grouping made by the huge and small hardpoints.
Turrets also allow for a broader array of weapons than would normally be optimal with only two triggers. They are the only practical way to manage more than two vastly different projectile velocities.
Constant TLB renders slow projectiles unusable and limits high velocity ones to very short range, but it absolutely does not prevent a loadout that takes into account the existence of TLB from defending itself, even from multiple attackers.
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Untrue and I have plenty of videos where I've fought 4vs1 and seen the clippers, fdl's, FAS flee. It's just when target lock is in constant mass use its impossible to manage this since you can't focus on a single target.
During a normal fight you can use flight assists off and focus fire causing immense damage to some of the smaller foes quickly. Once one routes, the fight quickly shifts in favour of you sometimes. If a cutter or corvette joins them then you haven't much chance really.
I think a video would speak better volumes here. Target lock breaker in its own right has good merit. But when multiple foes use it spamming with multiple plasmas, you see where it not having a cool down makes it what I'm here complaining about.
It's quite entertaining to see until you realise it happens time and time again making it impossible to hang about and fight. There should be a counter or a cool down in my opinion. And I do emphasise in my opinion.
As for git gud, join the consoles you can gauge if I really need to git gud. In the meantime you can get spam attacked by some of my foes and see how you like it then... Lol.
It's not about losing a 4vs1, it's about having no means of it being even possible to fight at all really in this case.
Perhaps they could make target lock work on probability. Much like the malfunctioning lasers, how they won't always cause a malfunction.
Frontier actually need to consider how these effects work at a fundamental level; there is almost no use of 'cool-down' for really any special. Everything has 100% uptime. Target lock breaker, FSD scrambler, you name it. There needs to be some downtime to act as an offset.
I was in a type-10 and at one point it became so stupid I actually just reverted to ramming an attacking FAS as it swung close because this was more effective than nine hardpoints which constant lost lock, half of which I can't use fixed on, because Frontier believes it's sensible and realistic to put hardpoints 60 feet apart (just use turrets? yeah about that..).
Frontier develops on the "this sounds wicked cool" model. Everything sounds fantastic. My friend, it would be one of the happiest days, if they just built a bigger internal test team - and then listened to them. TLB shouldn't be able to be proc'd constantly, any more than FSD or anything else.
Frontier has a ton of 'proc' based weapon blueprints. I don't think a single one has any cool down, apart from corrosive (which on a MC means you can keep it proc'ing beyond 4 seconds; never mind then, it was the thought that counts). When I have something with 9 hardpoints at my disposal and the best way I can counter this nonsense is to just hit them with it like a brick instead, there's probably some room for improvement.
And before people scream "but you just want them gone?!" - no. 100% proc'ing isn't sane. The effects have great merit; just not 100% of the time for crying out loud. Almost everything needs a darned cool down so people actually have to do more than play 'tag'.
Or revert to using the hull, like a brick, because at least that has some ability to hit a target.
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Frontier can either make it a percentage chance (eg it'll proc ~75% of the time) so something like 1 shot in 2-3 is going to proc, or having a simple cool down that says TLB can only be applied every 20-30 seconds or something. Same thing for the FSD breaker.
That we can really spam almost any special 24/7; this is just a bit short sighted from Frontier who likely just haven't really considered how this actually works in practice. When it's a wing, there's effectively guaranteed 100% uptime on every single special.
I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.
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I'm still not seeing a compelling reason to nerf TLB other than "I don't like it being used against me." My advice would be don't be caught by a wing of SDC/Renegades while you're flying solo in a t10, or be prepared to wake out.
JB, I heart you like a brother from another mother, but I don't think 100% uptime on TLB is sane. Fun? Yes. Annoying as f---? Oh yeah. Sane? No. Stuff should just not be able to endlessly proc, on connect. I'm up for a fight if someone jumps me. But 100% reliable TLB every hit (did it hit? yes? you have lost target) is just daft.
Very few games offer ability to meet or exceed 100% proc on an effect of some sort, without some fairly decent trade off elsewhere; there isn't a trade-off in this instance; just 'disarm' the other player.
Or force everyone to just go fixed and have convergence issues. Or not fly anything that doesn't have crappy convergence.
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Target lock breakers are fantastic in PvE.
This has been a great thread, tbh. A lot of powerful disagreements, but a lot of "Hey man, don't take this the wrong way" prefaces, too.
One thing that strikes me as odd is the timing of the complaint; you guys kind of act like this hasn't been a thing since the inception of special effects. Spamming TLB's without compassion or remorse has been de rigueur for going on two years. To read some of the comments you'd think this was a new since the beta or something.
As far as the practical facts of the complaint goes; I think you guys are expecting to have your cake and eat it too, and unwilling to adjust to the realities of the situation. The Big three have ungodly shield capacities, hanger bays and weapon loadouts and can leave the fight literally whenever they wish, whereas medium ships simply do not have this luxury, and instead have to make creative use of TLB's to help even the odds. There is no problem with it as it stands--bind a key to select next highest threat, fly fa-off as much as possible and use some fixed weapons. Before saying it isn't possible, Rinzler has a vid somewhere on his channel showing him doing just that in his vette. Plus, don't get caught out flying without support. Finally, get used to the idea that the big three ships have some limitations when faced with competent PvPers working in a pack.
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I've tried to avoid these threads to be fair. Because they are simply recycling the same concerns raised at the time they were raised and Frontier will likely ignore it now, as they did then. Everything proc's with 100% uptime. This is nothing new.
It's been said for 2+ years. I've just come to the simple point that I know that they know this is busted, but the motivation to make it less busted simply isn't there. It's just recycling the same concerns, Frontier pop in, um-and-ahh over it; and then decide they have something else to do. The reality is; they know that whilst people ask for balance, this isn't actually what's wanted. It's medicine. And this community hates medicine. With a burning passion.
Frontier know that, so they dance around these topics ad infinitum. They like to keep people happy. Broken crap, keeps people happy. I don't think it matters what people drive; 100% uptime is broken and would you really be so vocipherous in it's defence, if it wasn't?
I'm not defending large ships here m8. I'm asking why the hell does everything have 100% uptime and isn't that really really broken and can't we possibly move on from that. Lastly? I'm not "you guys". I'm just an idiot. An average pilot trying to be less average. I'm happily state I am pretty garbage tier still.
None of that has anything to do with crap that procs 100% of the time it hits because Frontier seems to think this isn't inherently problematic (when others would probably have long since run from the building - screaming). I really don't know what else to say?
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I would argue further that every single one of the 'proc' effects not only is stupid, has no place in the game, but is also lazy development. They all share a common theme, which is the introduction of a negative effect that completely bypasses existing mechanics. For example, cascade feedback does direct damage to a shield generator, through the shields, ignoring both module reinforcement packages and the integrity of the shield generator itself. 2-3 hits from a cascade feedback torp and your shield goes down. Doesn't matter if you are using an e2 or b8 with engineered integrity. The number of torpedos to kill your shield generator is the same. TLB is another example, it simply gets rid of your target. Your sensor grade or engineering doesn't matter. Your opponents heat signature doesn't matter. NOTHING matters other than if you got hit. Same deal with corrosive, scramble spectrum, ect ect.
Bypassing existing mechanics like this is a huge problem because it essentially removes existing content and mechanics from the meta since they are ignored by the more powerful 'proc' effects. Silent running, heat sinks, and low heat builds all offered a similar effect as TLB, but they did so within a dynamic system that took into consideration many different variables like distance, sensor strength, heat output, ect. It use to be that if you wanted your opponent to lose track of you you would have to activate silent running at a distance small, or you could use a heat sink and lower your heat signature enough that they lost lock. You opponent had counters to this however, they could upgrade their sensors or try to get closer. It was an elaborate dance that challenged and engaged both players both in combat and in the hanger. The stealth player had to make certain sacrifices when it came to power usage and heat generation to ensure their build ran cool enough to be able to use silent running or be cooled to invisibility by heat sinks. The opponent had to do a risk reward analysis on their sensor package, are those A rated sensors really worth that extra 60 tons or so, is the increase in speed worth the weakness to stealth? All of that is gone with TLB. You can sit 10m away from your enemy with 150% heat and hitting them will still break the lock, so you don't have to make any sacrifices in build or fighting style other than "use plasmas." Similarly, you opponent has no decisions to make other than "spam targeting keys" and "don't use gimbals or seekers." TLB has not only limited the options that the victim has, but it has actually destroyed an entire mode of gameplay for both the stealth player and their opponent.
You see this time and again with special effects. Corrosive and scramble spectrum are just straight out hull tank nerfs, and only require the user to dedicate one small slot to a turreted weapon that they don't really pay attention to. Emissive munitions is just a big middle finger to silent running and again only requires one small weapon to get the full effect. A fight against a ship using cascading feedback basically narrows down to "did you get hit by 2-3 torpedos? lol you ded now boi" or "oh looks like they missed. sucks to suck now they can't fight at all lol."
As for why this is lazy development, well the biggest issue I've outlined is that these special effects just override perfectly fine existing mechanics. Most of the special effects could be recreated using existing mechanics to a sufficient enough extent to give a similar effect as the current versions, but in a way that ties into the existing game mechanics.
For example, TLB could be replaced with a buffed up version of dazzle shell. Any ship that is hit with this buffed dazzle shell would lose lock on ships that were int he far range of their sensors, but would still be able to keep lock on close ships or ships with high heat output. Additionally, LR A rated sensors would help counter the effect, but they wouldn't completely nullify it. Both the user of DS and their enemy would have to fight strategically, with the user of DS trying to keep their heat low and their distance as far as possible, while their opponent would be constantly trying to get closer and force them to generate as much heat as possible (forcing SCB or a lot of boosting for example). This would create engaging gameplay for both sides that expands on existing content. However, it's much harder to properly balance a bunch of effects like dazzle shell so that they are useful but not overpowering, and it would take a bit of creativity and probably the implementation of new mechanics to come up with alternatives for corrosive and cascading feedback, so the devs opted to go the simpler route and just create a bunch of effects whose description can basically be read as "negates mechanic x after y hits for z seconds"
Nah, there's nothing wrong with specials and various effects. It's a very common diversity option for any number of games.
It's just most developers would recognise 100% uptime is probably not something they can do without significant penalties elsewhere. Frontier doesn't ascribe to that notion. So we have endless specials with 100% uptime because chaff breaks gimbals and turrets so why is this a problem that would need some offset? No-one uses fixed anyway because we've put the hardpoints on (only most, not all) things 60 feet apart. I mean, there are some ships with a harpoint grouping so gorgeous you want to elope with it; but clearly that's not relevant here because again chaff and turrets..
Specials aren't really the issue. Never were. It's just Frontier's implementation, and people realising it's really, really hilariously great.
It's just most developers would recognise 100% uptime is probably not something they can do without significant penalties elsewhere. Frontier doesn't ascribe to that notion. So we have endless specials with 100% uptime because chaff breaks gimbals and turrets so why is this a problem that would need some offset? No-one uses fixed anyway because we've put the hardpoints on (only most, not all) things 60 feet apart. I mean, there are some ships with a harpoint grouping so gorgeous you want to elope with it; but clearly that's not relevant here because again chaff and turrets..
Specials aren't really the issue. Never were. It's just Frontier's implementation, and people realising it's really, really hilariously great.
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Odd as it may sound, I really can't remember any threads with ED alumni complaining that TLB's needed to be nerfed. This being the first. I'm not vociferously defending them because they're broken, I'm vociferously defending them because it hasn't been demonstrated in this thread (or anywhere else) that they need to be nerfed. Perhaps I'll wind up changing my opinion in the future, but I doubt it. Not trying to offend anyone here, just disagreeing.
Now, please excuse me everyone, I'm off to craft a new thread lamenting the OP nature of gimbals
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That's kindof my point, I guess I wasn't clear enough. I don't have a problem with special effect, but they should play into existing game mechanics. An effect that decrease sensor range instead of breaking target lock of example. An effect that causes a fixed amount of damage to a random shield booster or the emitter would be another example. I don't think cool-downs are the only issue here. TLB would still be just as silly as it is now if it had a 20 second cooldown, it's just we wouldn't have to have that silliness shoved into our faces.
Also, just because some games get away with using special effect that override existing game mechanics doesn't mean they would work in elite. Just because a magic spell works in a Moba doesn't mean introducing it into a realistic space mmo would be fine. It doesn't matter what the cooldown of TLB is, it's still just going to be an unavoidable (unless you fly a small ship) annoyance to the player being hit by it and just a trolling tool for the player using it. It doesn't actually enrich the gameplay of either side at all, it just annoys the first player.
Same goes with corrosive. It adds nothing to the game at all. Maybe if hits from a corrosive gun gradually decreased the armor rating of a ship for a small period of time, and there were certain modules that hull tanks could equip to counter this (maybe a utility that released a neutralizing agent?) it would actually make combat more interesting, as it would allow the user to do more damage with their small guns if they scored enough hits fast enough, but the hull tank could counter this by trying to move in and out of range to allow their hulls armor to recover. The potential for a good game mechanic is there, but they chose to go with a simple stat reduction.
Same again can be said for cascading feedback. It doesn't do a fixed amount of damage and instead just does a direct % of the generator's total integrity. This means that b rated shield generators and engineering blueprints that SHOULD help you against shield generator damage don't. It bypasses both the shield mechanic and the module integrity mechanics. There are no counters other than "don't get shot at" as they buffed torpedoes against ECM and PD.
You do make a good point about the lack of negatives. If you had to lose all the entire DPS of one of your hardpoint for one of these special effects it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue as it is right now where you can add any special effect to a weapon for nearly no cost.