Powerplay Powerplay Solo/Private Exploit Problem

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
If they can change the C&P system they can change this.

C&P affects all players in all modes - with special measures applied to those who destroy other CMDRs.



I'm not going to play Powerplay in solo. It's not fair for the players that I'm opposing and not in the spirit it's meant to be.

You choice, of course - however the "not in the spirit it's meant to be" bit has me a little perplexed. Has Frontier made a statement that PowerPlay should be carried out in Open only?

I'm still happy to assist you with open opposition so you can understand what it is like. It is the most fun and engaging part of the game, solo/Pg players like rubbernuke agree with this, so why can't you?

As and when I seek some PvP I'll be sure to let you know. Some players, no doubt, find it to be the most fun and engaging part of the game - I'm in the group that finds it to be tediously predictable, based on my own experiences of it in this game.
 
Everything I know about how this game works, from how the matchmaker works, to how the BGS and Powerplay works, to my own experiences in this game, combined with 20+ years of playing MMOs similar to Open mode Elite, tells me that the whole notion of patrolling a system to stop bad actors is a losing strategy. In online games such as ED, the advantage will always go to the aggressor, who gets to choose when, where, and how many, while the defender has to spread themselves thin, in an effort to cover everywhere 24/7.

Its not during expansions. In my brief time fighting them in Open mode it was a slaughterhouse where many, many merits were lost on both sides due to ambushes and direct interception. Wednesday nights were epic, with wings of ships patrolling, helping out those damaged in combat, swooping on opponents. It was great.

My last Open session resulted in intercepting underminers that created fun gaming. Through looking at attack patterns I saw potential targets and got people to patrol them. I'd like to think it slowed people down and helped us, but it sure was fun- more than simply camping at a Nav and hoovering up NPCs that cannot fight back.
 
If thats the case I simply don't understand why FD ever bothered with Powerplay- what is its job if its not to get people fighting? From what you argue Powerplay is a question waiting for an answer from another unspoken question.

If BGS manipulation fits the scope of conflict required by FDs definition of group play, why go further than that?

My assumption is that Frontier was surprised by how many players actively engaged in BGS manipulation, and used that as a basis for a way for players to influence events in Human space at a larger scale. The feeling I got from reading the DDF was that something similar to Powerplay was intended for the main game, as a way for players to engage in the politics within and between the major factions, while the BGS would literally operate in the background. They never expected players to adopt minor factions, either individually, or as a group.

When it came time to add the political layer to the game, Frontier based its design on what IMO is essentially a dumbed down version of the BGS. Not as many factors to keep track of, a limited number of activities to engage in, and tossed in some figureheads to put a face on what at the time were faceless factions. But like the BGS, Powerplay is more about an expression of soft power, as opposed to hard power. Indirect conflict, as opposed to direct combat. Opposition, but not necessarily fighting.

This game is designed, from the ground up, as a Play With People game, not a Player Verses Player game. Which is why we have modes, private groups, and social filters that affect matchmaking. Sometimes, PwP can include PvP, but even in Open, players can choose to block other players, removing even the possibility of direct action, should they decide they don't want to play with them.

In my experience, direct PvP is at its best when both sides don't know the outcome of an encounter ahead of time. That is why matchmaking in most PvP games focuses on getting a rough parity of ability and equipment on both sides. MMOs like Open mode Elite: Dangerous, where the skilled and unskilled are thrown together in the same environment, and where there is a huge disparity between different builds, creates an environment where only a handful of participants in direct PvP actually enjoy themselves. 99% of the time, the outcome of an encounter isn't in doubt. Unless I'm the one initiating an encounter, there is no choice of fight or flight, because any fight will be so unequal I don't stand a chance. On those rare occasions I am in the mood to be the one initiating an encounter, I respect the fact that the other player is a human being, and make an effort to be a fun encounter.

During the limited amount of time I spent pledged to a Power, I found the quality of player antagonists to be much better than the player "antagonists" I encounter outside of Powerplay. Personally, I think the fact that one has to "opt in" twice: once to Powerplay, and once in Open, keeps most of the proverbial riff raff out.

I would very much live to see direct PvP have much larger role in both Powerplay, and in the BGS, but only if it encourages the fun kind of PvP. The hard part will be creating a system that both encourages symmetrical PvP in an environment where asymmetrical PvP is inevitable.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I would very much live to see direct PvP have much larger role in both Powerplay, and in the BGS, but only if it encourages the fun kind of PvP. The hard part will be creating a system that both encourages symmetrical PvP in an environment where asymmetrical PvP is inevitable.

.... and the harder part is to do so in a manner that isn't prone to players colluding to gain the associated rewards from un-contested encounters.
 
Its not during expansions. In my brief time fighting them in Open mode it was a slaughterhouse where many, many merits were lost on both sides due to ambushes and direct interception. Wednesday nights were epic, with wings of ships patrolling, helping out those damaged in combat, swooping on opponents. It was great.

And I can see why. There are only a handful of expansion systems per cycle between all the powers, so you don't have to play "whack-a-mole" if you want to actually confront other players. If there's only one system either side cares about, then that's where everyone will be. Maps in PvP games (at least the good ones) are designed to funnel players into choke points, and expansion systems are natural choke points.

My last Open session resulted in intercepting underminers that created fun gaming. Through looking at attack patterns I saw potential targets and got people to patrol them. I'd like to think it slowed people down and helped us, but it sure was fun- more than simply camping at a Nav and hoovering up NPCs that cannot fight back.

And that is why I play primarily in Open, because I consider it more fun that way. It's also why I think everyone should have the choice to play in Open or not, because my idea of fun isn't necessarily the same as other people's.
 
...
In Powerplay, if I along with 10 other solo guys farm 20k in undermining merits, sit on them in Solo and snipe another power on Thursday morning, does that make for a good experience? Powerplay has no way to tell you you are under attack unless you either see someone killing or they cash in merits, otherwise its just another sunny Thursday.
...

But this is an issue not caused by different game modes, it is the ability to store merits for an entire week before handing them in. What if unclaimed merits would start to depreciate after maybe 6 hours? And then degrade by 10% each hour (that is 92% in 24 hours). This would allow enough time to turn merits in, with a bit of a grace period, when playing normally, while greatly reducing the merits than can be stored for a snipe.
 
But this is an issue not caused by different game modes, it is the ability to store merits for an entire week before handing them in. What if unclaimed merits would start to depreciate after maybe 6 hours? And then degrade by 10% each hour (that is 92% in 24 hours). This would allow enough time to turn merits in, with a bit of a grace period, when playing normally, while greatly reducing the merits than can be stored for a snipe.

That stops sniping in its tracks, and is the only way smaller powers / groups have to fight larger powers in most cases. Ideally you should have a heat map of Powerplay activity (not unlike what you will get for trading in 3.0) so you can at least match activity to bounty boards (if they survive nu C+P).

Plus, undermining takes a lot more effort to do than other PP jobs- would you add more merit decay onto merit decay? Merit hoarding for snipes in Open is a nerve wracking experience, as the victory (or defeat) may come down to your contribution. Its a gamble that ramps up the tension- any mistake could screw weeks of planning.
 
One failure I see with the logic in this thread is that "Open play == PVP" when that is not really the case to be honest. Yes, you are at RISK of being attacked by another player but that is true with pretty much everything about open. But if your in Power Play, the game explicitly tells you which systems are hostile and to tread lightly in. Your sensors tell you when other commanders around with a hollow mark and the game gives you enough tools to get away from a gank if your smart about it and prepare.

The issue I think is most players have developed horrible habits from ship building to just general flying due to not being at any risk or drive to get better. NPC interdicts are very easy to overcome in my opinion so freighters are barely at risk, so may freighters either ditch a shield generator or put a bad one on. This video shows a popular ship building site's "recommended" build and how to make it actually survive... [video=youtube;Uh9AWV_BWo0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0[/video]

Again its as simple as take one cargo off and putting a good shield in its place, along with boosters. And once attacked, some smart flying and planning gets you to safety.

Look do I think Power Play should be restricted for Solo/PG players? No. But the solution can be just making it so merits earned in Open effect the PP's goals more. This way personal progression within the PP isn't gimped by playing solo or PG, but the over arching goal does benefit from players who put their merits at risk. This seems like a good balance for everyone.
 
I always wonder how many of these 'Open is scary' folks even participate in PP beyond a few lazy hauls to maintain a low rank.
 
I always wonder how many of these 'Open is scary' folks even participate in PP beyond a few lazy hauls to maintain a low rank.

First of all - I put my hand up to not participating in PP at the moment so I don't really have a dog in this pit but since I chimed-in earlier...

However - the point isn't that "open is scary" - open is basically devoid of other players away from the hotspots (and PP activities produce at least warm-spots if not hot-spots ;) ). - The issue since Engineers is that any single interaction with a "real commander" can result in being vastly overpowered if you have not engineered for defence. Yes the murder-hobos and LULZ-kiddies are very few and very far between but it just takes one to wipe one's "0" in the insurance claims stat - so iron-man rules mean that one is tempted to play rusty-man rules near hotspots. :)
 
Last edited:
Risk should be rewarded.

What risk?

You can block people in Open from being able to be instanced with you.
So where is the risk, when you can lock out people from other factions or none aligned.

This is where "risk v reward" falls down. There is no more risk in Open than Solo unless a players wants it.
 
What risk?

You can block people in Open from being able to be instanced with you.
So where is the risk, when you can lock out people from other factions or none aligned.

This is where "risk v reward" falls down. There is no more risk in Open than Solo unless a players wants it.

The risk is that in Open you face about 50% more evil effects being used on you. FSD reboot missiles, drive killing ion mines, drag munitions, Grom Bombs, TLB, engineered power weapons, and so on.

In Solo and PG you face generic weapons- if NPCs used them too, then game on. But they don't and pose little threat.
 
The risk is that in Open you face about 50% more evil effects being used on you. FSD reboot missiles, drive killing ion mines, drag munitions, Grom Bombs, TLB, engineered power weapons, and so on.

Which if the people using them are on your block list.... they won't be using them on you in open mode because they won't see you while your in open mode.

In Solo and PG you face generic weapons- if NPCs used them too, then game on. But they don't and pose little threat.

Not all PGs are PvE. So you can still be hit with those in PGs.
And as far as I'm aware, NPCs can have some engineered stuff fitted. They only stopped the bug where they had several effects stacking.
 
Which if the people using them are on your block list.... they won't be using them on you in open mode because they won't see you while your in open mode.

Most people who are in Open use some form of Power weapon and / or experimentals. Good luck blocking everyone you meet.

Not all PGs are PvE. So you can still be hit with those in PGs.

True, but you are still narrowing the field of opposition.

And as far as I'm aware, NPCs can have some engineered stuff fitted. They only stopped the bug where they had several effects stacking.

They do, but its not to the level that players can get, and its restricted to higher rank NPCs. The only exception is ATR who have station-like experimental effects on their weapons and have pimped up ships.
 
Most people who are in Open use some form of Power weapon and / or experimentals. Good luck blocking everyone you meet.

Which is easy enough using the menu and block them in seconds. Then you just drop out of SC to refresh your instancing and those folks will be gone.
So all this "risk" in open is completely optional.

And putting buffs to one mode just encourages people to have huge block lists in game at best, or take advantage of the Peer to Peer nature of the game at worst and block connections with firewalls / routers.
 
I don't get the logic. Why play in open when you start blocking people you meet. Why don't play in PG or solo right fromt the start if you don't want to meet random people - or what is the reason for this...????

I thought blocking is there to block actually harrassing players... but ofc you can block anyone you like. I just don't see the benefit to playing PG right away. It's an stragen argument for what?
 
I don't get the logic. Why play in open when you start blocking people you meet. Why don't play in PG or solo right fromt the start if you don't want to meet random people - or what is the reason for this...????

I thought blocking is there to block actually harrassing players... but ofc you can block anyone you like. I just don't see the benefit to playing PG right away. It's an stragen argument for what?

The point people are missing is;

If you add open only rewards as suggested, people who don't want the *optional extra risk* can claim those extra rewards by playing open and just blocking everyone.
So you're back to square one within a month. People undermining that you cannot touch, despite the fact they are in open.

So to fix some PP issues, you need to forget the mode system and think of solutions that work regardless of the modes.
Not things that can be bypassed via the mode system, block list, or by anyone who knows how P2P networking works (because there are out of game methods that will also give sudo solo in open mode).
 
Back
Top Bottom