“Station-legs" to be a fully developed standalone product? [discuss]

[Boff'in]

Now I think Frontier have done a fairly good job of keeping Elite Dangerous and Horizons as two separate entities. 
(Except the Engineers bit)
.

But space-legs and it’s integration has always been a further “issue” of parallel development (and awkward one at that).

Now I got a “sort” of strategy for this.
 Going off FDev’s original expansion premises.


- Walking around ships, one expansion. (space legs)
- 
Walking around stations another expansion. (station legs)

But what if, 

Space-legs covers “In-space-ship” 
gameplay

AND Walking around stations is a separate game all-together.


“WHAAAT” I hear you say!!! (Don’t worry LEP you still get it).

Dangerous players will get space legs:

- multi-crew aspects

- ship-boarding, (hangouts, pirating, search/rescue, salvage)

- interact with NPC’s (and killing/kidnapping)

- fixing hull damage, 

- repairing systems, etc etc.


Horizons players will additionally get:

- exiting ships and walking around, (like a poor mans SRV) on planets, It’s pointless, but it’s there 

- as this allows the ship to ship boarding when landed (since ships to ship boarding in space is a thing)
- limited suit air? What about installation-access?
(to be fair, locking peoples in their ship until we get breathable planets, will explain away these cases).


Station Legs is effectively it's own IP:
- Full on RPG Skyrim-esque standalone game.

- Collections Quest, 

- Assasination Quest,
- 
Derelict salvage.

- Muscle to aid/defend pirates 

- And stories on stations,


- Weapons, tools, Crafting, skill-trees(?) etc etc.

So people who aren't into space sims but FPS, can purchase "stations" and play in the Elite Dangerous themed FPS experience.


BUT it’s all connected to the same back end Network connection and Background Sim Right?
So the "station" players can affect the "Space-sim" players and vice-versa.
Civil wars will be played in station, as well as in-space.



So you need to board passage on a ship to get to another station.

You become a Passenger mission for an NPC or another player.


You never get to "fly", but you can walk onto the ship, offer help to fix things, repel boarders etc etc.

The space-legs (onboard spaceship gameplay) becomes a meeting point of the three player groups 
station, dangerous, horizons.


Even if they never bought the same game
---EDIT since people are MISSING THE POINT---
The thing is, STATIONS *is* an expansion
if you already own Dangerous or Horizons.

but it's designed from the bottom up as a FPS experience.
Meaning it not a meaningless experience that is "bolted onto" a space sim,

it is it's own thing.
People can buy stations and they join in spacelegs activities.

Horizons/dangerous players will get space legs automatically but can’t board stations until they buy the expansion.

For people who have bought a spaceship game and the stations it will be a seamless experience docking at a space-station and walking out of your space ship.

 

[Dommarraa]

I have LEP, but genuinely hope they spend 0 hours even discussing any sort of Legs

 

[John Xenir]

Part of me wants space legs and meaningful game mechanics behind it.

I guess - since CQC is a thing - it's not entirely out of the question. Just not holding my breath

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Now I think Frontier have done a fairly good job of keeping Elite Dangerous and Horizons as two separate entities. 
(Except the Engineers bit)
.

But space-legs and it’s integration has always been a further “issue” of parallel development (and awkward one at that).

Now I got a “sort” of strategy for this.
 Going off FDev’s original expansion premises.


- Walking around ships, one expansion. (space legs)
- 
Walking around stations another expansion. (station legs)

But what if, 

Space-legs covers “In-space-ship” 
gameplay

AND Walking around stations is a separate game all-together.


“WHAAAT” I hear you say!!! (Don’t worry LEP you still get it).

Dangerous players will get space legs:

- multi-crew aspects

- ship-boarding, (hangouts, pirating, search/rescue, salvage)

- interact with NPC’s (and killing/kidnapping)

- fixing hull damage, 

- repairing systems, etc etc.


Horizons players will additionally get:

- exiting ships and walking around, (like a poor mans SRV) on planets, It’s pointless, but it’s there 

- as this allows the ship to ship boarding when landed (since ships to ship boarding in space is a thing)
- limited suit air? What about installation-access?
(to be fair, locking peoples in their ship until we get breathable planets, will explain away these cases).


Station Legs is effectively it's own IP:
- Full on RPG Skyrim-esque standalone game.

- Collections Quest, 

- Assasination Quest,
- 
Derelict salvage.

- Muscle to aid/defend pirates 

- And stories on stations,


- Weapons, tools, Crafting, skill-trees(?) etc etc.

So people who aren't into space sims but FPS, can purchase "stations" and play in the Elite Dangerous themed FPS experience.


BUT it’s all connected to the same back end Network connection and Background Sim Right?
So the "station" players can affect the "Space-sim" players and vice-versa.
Civil wars will be played in station, as well as in-space.



So you need to board passage on a ship to get to another station.

You become a Passenger mission for an NPC or another player.


You never get to "fly", but you can walk onto the ship, offer help to fix things, repel boarders etc etc.

The space-legs (onboard spaceship gameplay) becomes a meeting point of the three player groups 
station, dangerous, horizons.

Even if they never bought the same game

I fully exect space legs to be a paid for expansion, so if you don't want it, don't buy it. There maybe a few things that standalone/horizons may be able to get such as getting out of your seat and using the systems in your own ship, but apart from that I can'think of anything else.

So no, I don't want it as a seperate game. A seperate expansion which anyone can choose to buy will be perfectly fine.

You also seem to think that the people that want space legs want it for combat and shooting. That is not necessarily the case.

 

[B1rdy]

...

I don`t get, why people expect these days space games should for some reason include game mechanics from all genres? I have never seen anyone wanting to walk around the pit lane in Assetto Corsa and do RPG stuff. Has anyone ever wanted to fly a plane in The Division?
This request is especially interesting, because FDev doesn´t even get the space ship part right, a.k.a. the core mechanics.

 

[777Driver]

Is it the devs or the community that keep coming up with these ridiculous names for things?

 

[askavir]

I'd rather have everything in the same game.

There's a whole multitude of possible things to do with legs besides just being an FPS:

Nearly all the already existing gameplay could by vastly extended and improved with space legs, in space, in stations and on planets.

- Imagine discovering the Generation Ships, and actually having to go inside to explore and discover what happened. You could explore the ship, try locating the computer logs, maybe have to repair some stuff to be able to access said logs, maybe some areas of the ship would be hazardous like toxic gas, biohazards, fire, etc etc etc.
- Imagine discovering all those abandoned settlements and having to go inside to discover what happened. And actually see what happened.
- Imagine the alien base, but now actually exploring it on foot, with corridors and rooms which may or may not be empty /hazardous, instead of driving a car though it.
- Imagine even a typical "retrieve black box". Instead of dropping to USS; deploy limpet, go home, you would have to stop the ship near the wreck, EVA into wreck, locate / force opening, walk around the wreck, possible deal/dodge hazardous environment, locate black box, extract black box, EVA back to ship, go home. Much better, no?
- Imagine landing on a planet and entering a crashed ship wreck to retrieve data, materials, cargo, etc.
- Imagine landing on a planet and deploying research equipment to retrieve mining/scientific data. Planetary conditions like heat/cold/pressure/atmo type could play a part on how hard or easy this would be.
- Imagine that some surface settlements might still be populated and have needs / missions.

I just thought these things up right now, there's a whole wealth of possible legs' gameplay that fits the game premise and expands it without necessarily turning it into just another space themed FPS (not saying it can't have some FPS component, just saying there's no reason why spacelegs can't be something more than simply "yet another fragger"). On the other hand, I had always seen ED as the game that could be more than "yet another space shooter", and that's how it mostly turned out...

 

[777Driver]

I don`t get, why people expect these days space games should for some reason include game mechanics from all genres? .

It is pretty much standard to at least have access to the interior of the ship. The core mechanics of the ships is excellent, could do with being a bit more on the sim side of things, however they have reached a nice balance. You'll find that except for a few grumpy forum members, being able to walk around ships is a feature many want, including the devs.

 

[Watcher]

I can see where you are going here but if they are separate I'm not sure there is enough to draw people in on the station side - maybe, it could be fun but perhaps difficult to pull off.
Then again, more difficult than integrating it fully in to E? Yeah.. probably not. So I guess that would be a route but, as you say, it is entirely a separate game then and I suspect that leaves everyone a bit unhappy. I look at CQC and wonder how successful it would be if integrated in to the main game properly. If I could remote in to CQC from my ship (like multi crew) I'd be much more likely to take part, alas than isn't a thing (yet?). This is obviously very different but might suffer similar problems.
Assuming they do legs at all they are going to have a lot of work on their hands and if they go for it I think proper full integration would be the way to go, challenging as that will be.
Not holding my breath though, legs done well would be nice but I think I'd take everything else being improved first before they try and shoe horn in something new.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don`t get, why people expect these days space games should for some reason include game mechanics from all genres? I have never seen anyone wanting to walk around the pit lane in Assetto Corsa and do RPG stuff. Has anyone ever wanted to fly a plane in The Division?
This request is especially interesting, because FDev doesn´t even get the space ship part right, a.k.a. the core mechanics.

If ED was only a space ship racing game I could understand with regards to Assetto Corsa. And the division, if ED had a tiny map with very limited tech after a pandemic plague, then yes I can understand. I get those games for what they are.

But ED is a Galaxy sim where we fly our ships around and drive our SRV's. There are massive stations we can't explore, there are outposts on planets we can fly to, drive around them, but can't go inside. To me it feels unfinished without being able to do those parts.

A bit like if you played GTA5 but couldn't get out of your car, had no cut screen movies, you just did everything using the in-car screen on the dashboard and driving the car only. It would be half the game it is. To me ED feels like half the game it could be. Still a very good half though.

Or play read dead redepmtion, but couldn't get off your horse or go into any of the buildings.

 

[Kizbot]

I don`t get, why people expect these days space games should for some reason include game mechanics from all genres? I have never seen anyone wanting to walk around the pit lane in Assetto Corsa and do RPG stuff. Has anyone ever wanted to fly a plane in The Division?
This request is especially interesting, because FDev doesn´t even get the space ship part right, a.k.a. the core mechanics.

It is sort of an expectation set by the few other space genre games out there currently either released or in development.
Trouble is this is not a feature that you can just dripple in, it needs to have tons of work done before release into the wild. The more I think about what would be expected the more I realise that its never happening.

 

[John Xenir]

I thought Sir Braben talked about space legs in KS campaign and after it. Wasn't that the case, that the space legs would come at certain point?
I'm not saying it was, I just can't remember where it was first mentioned anymore.

 

[ZeroAi]

I fully exect space legs to be a paid for expansion, so if you don't want it, don't buy it. There maybe a few things that standalone/horizons may be able to get such as getting out of your seat and using the systems in your own ship, but apart from that I can'think of anything else.

So no, I don't want it as a seperate game. A seperate expansion which anyone can choose to buy will be perfectly fine.

You also seem to think that the people that want space legs want it for combat and shooting. That is not necessarily the case.

+Rep and Agreed

If they add a first person walking mode with cool stuff to do I'll buy it.

 

[Arioch]

I thought Sir Braben talked about space legs in KS campaign and after it. Wasn't that the case, that the space legs would come at certain point?
I'm not saying it was, I just can't remember where it was first mentioned anymore.

Yes, there is a video where the devs were asked what their most anticipated future feature was, and pretty much all of them answered "walking around". It was also mentioned a few times by DB in the KS dev vids.

When people now ask why Space Legs should even be considered, I find myself waving a finger in the vague direction of Cambridge thinking, "they said it first!"

 

[Seizewell Warrior]

I have a suspicious feeling "Space Legs" will be more on the X-Rebirth level than Mass Effect or Deus Ex etc.

X-Rebirth worked because, after you got tired of identikit stations other than the scripted missions and crafting/illegal materials you could do 90% of the interaction via the comm panel and drones.

Mass Effect works because, well, it's more of a RPG/combat game than a space sim - Joker flys the ship, you just pick the destination from the galaxy map oh and in ME3 play the silly dodge the Reapers 2D mini game.

I suppose they could go down the route of having certain planets with caves or underground bunkers (similar to Skyrim or Fallout) where you could explore to obtain materials or other items for engineers.

However that is getting in to full on Single Player gaming/campaign as each location would have to be uniquely scripted and reset each time a new player happened upon it. Thus far I've not seen any inclination by DBOBE or his FDev masters/underlords (?) to overhaul the current system(s) in favour of single player. And if I don't play in PvP to preseve my sanity given all the adverse report, I'm not about to explore a cave in PvP where some ganker with an engineered tesla gun is waiting round the corner vs. my pipe pistol!

I *want* to be able to do some of that in ED but at the same time I don't want it to detract from the core task of piloting my ship through the galaxy from the cockpit.

 

[Stealthie]

What we're talking about, here, is just an FPS set in the Elite universe.

I would certainly be up for it if it was a decent FPS in it's own right.
If it was just "TF2 in space", however, I probably wouldn't bother.

FDev would need to ask themselves if they think they're capable of creating an outstanding FPS.
If the answer is "yes" then have at it.
If the answer is "no" then they should probably try to integrate it into ED, where they already have a "captive market".

Also, I don't see why LEP owners should have any access to such a product for free.
They paid for expansions to ED, not for free access to every future product set in the Elite universe.

 

[kilvenny]

CQC was a flop, standalone FPS would be a risk. To be honest I think adding legs is a great opportunity for payable add on content. Basically you could have different expansions for where the legs happen. Station, planet, in ship, megaship etc. The key is enabling content that gives legs a reason. Searching mega ships, outposts or walking around ships is relatively limited and then can have gameplay that makes sense. Where I see an issue is in the large stations, the work required would be huge. I dont think a few limited corridors would suffice.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'd rather have everything in the same game.

There's a whole multitude of possible things to do with legs besides just being an FPS:

Nearly all the already existing gameplay could by vastly extended and improved with space legs, in space, in stations and on planets.

- Imagine discovering the Generation Ships, and actually having to go inside to explore and discover what happened. You could explore the ship, try locating the computer logs, maybe have to repair some stuff to be able to access said logs, maybe some areas of the ship would be hazardous like toxic gas, biohazards, fire, etc etc etc.
- Imagine discovering all those abandoned settlements and having to go inside to discover what happened. And actually see what happened.
- Imagine the alien base, but now actually exploring it on foot, with corridors and rooms which may or may not be empty /hazardous, instead of driving a car though it.
- Imagine even a typical "retrieve black box". Instead of dropping to USS; deploy limpet, go home, you would have to stop the ship near the wreck, EVA into wreck, locate / force opening, walk around the wreck, possible deal/dodge hazardous environment, locate black box, extract black box, EVA back to ship, go home. Much better, no?
- Imagine landing on a planet and entering a crashed ship wreck to retrieve data, materials, cargo, etc.
- Imagine landing on a planet and deploying research equipment to retrieve mining/scientific data. Planetary conditions like heat/cold/pressure/atmo type could play a part on how hard or easy this would be.
- Imagine that some surface settlements might still be populated and have needs / missions.

I just thought these things up right now, there's a whole wealth of possible legs' gameplay that fits the game premise and expands it without necessarily turning it into just another space themed FPS (not saying it can't have some FPS component, just saying there's no reason why spacelegs can't be something more than simply "yet another fragger"). On the other hand, I had always seen ED as the game that could be more than "yet another space shooter", and that's how it mostly turned out...

Yep, all of that would be superb. It would really add to the adventure.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

*erg* Standalone? Well, they can develop whatever they feel they want. The franchise is theirs, too, so ...

 

[Dogg]

The Braben did say he has dreamed since childhood of getting out of his spaceship and wandering around stations