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[Deleted member 115407]

This has become impossibly convoluted; which is indicative of the impossibly convoluted input.

Just because there is a highly technical approach and highly detailed methodology, doesn't mean it's a great one. The KWS has become more contextually aware than the pilot will be in almost every situation. I'm all for contextually relevant mechanics; this is just diabolical.

I think it has just been poorly described to make it seem convoluted. In summary, this is what I get...

1) All bounties are now local bounties (No more generic, small "Federation" bounties)
2) A wanted ship in a jurisdiction will always show wanted for that jurisdiction
3) KWS can uncover other bounties for non-controlling, local factions (in system), or for any local bounties that share superpower affiliation with the given system.
4) Collected bounties can be claimed either locally (in-system factions only) or at the IF (all factions)
5) An aggregate value of 2M+ in superpower aligned local bounties will turn into an interstellar bounty for that superpower
6) Interstellar bounties are active and can be collected anywhere in the superpower jurisdiction (all active, all the time while in that superpower)
7) Once collected, interstellar bounties will be broken broken down and awarded as the individual local bounties (can be claimed as per #4)

(Disregard this line)

Really, aside from the interstellar bounties and the lack of the smaller superpower bounties, it's the same as it always has been.

I don't see an issue with it, and I like it.

 

[kofeyh]

I'm pretty sure if I have to read the OP, which has a large number of if-then statements, and then several pages of data to extrapolate how the KWS works; and that none of this will actually be described in game, that my comment stands just fine.

What I read, tells me the KWS is now essentially occupying a slot that I can use for something else. This is what it tells most people.

 

[Chaparral]

It will detect all bounties issued by all factions in the system.
It will grant a license to kill any ship that has a Federal bounty if in a Federal jurisdiction, any ship that has an Empire bounty if in an Imperial Jurisdiction and any ship that has an Alliance bounty if in an Alliance jurisdiction.
Detecting any bounties with a Kill Warrant scan will prevent you losing reputation with the ship’s faction when you destroy it, unless it belonged to a criminal faction.

1) So as long as I can still collect all those bounties, I'm happy.
2) Does this make a difference to a non-aligned bounty hunter? I kill everything that is wanted. All about those credits...
3) I'm a locust, I burn the crops to the ground as long as there's money to be made I don't care about my rep.

It would be nice if there was the occasional - OH this NPC I just scanned has a ridiculous bounty if I turn it in 60ly from here... I might actually pay attention to the transactions panel.

Also I'm pretty damn sure the only player bounties getting turned in will be between friends.

 

[kofeyh]

I think it has just been poorly described to make it seem convoluted. In summary, this is what I get...

1) All bounties are now local bounties (No more generic, small "Federation" bounties)
2) A wanted ship in a jurisdiction will always show wanted for that jurisdiction
3) KWS can uncover other bounties for non-controlling, local factions (in system)
4) Collected bounties can be claimed either locally (in-system factions only) or at the IF (all factions)
5) An aggregate value of 2M+ in superpower aligned local bounties will turn into an interstellar bounty for that superpower
6) Interstellar bounties are active and can be claimed anywhere in the superpower jurisdiction
7) When claimed, interstellar bounties will be broken broken down and awarded as the individual local bounties (can be claimed as per #4)

Unknown: If you KWS an interstellar Fed bounty in an Empire system with one fed faction, will the target show wanted? My assumption is yes.

Really, aside from the interstellar bounties and the lack of the smaller superpower bounties, it's the same as it always has been.

It took you seven individual statements to explain a single scanner function. None of this will be recorded in the game; so anyone who hasn't spent time reading the OP, or the eleventy following amendments will have no idea how this now works.

Not everything requires a complicated solution. But that's where we are now. Elite: Convoluted.

Essentially, the KWS ceases to really be of use; because the AI has procedural generation so a lot of the time they will have no reported bounties (even if the system added them, they're for the major power it won't show) and therefore will often show just the local crime. It's cool; utility space is at a premium, so I have no problem not using one at all.

I've long since lost track of what issue this is supposed to be solving. Reading through the thread, it seems this is a common theme.

 

[Mohrgan]

It took you seven individual statements to explain a single scanner function. None of this will be recorded in the game; so anyone who hasn't spent time reading the OP, or the eleventy following amendments will have no idea how this now works.

Not everything requires a complicated solution. But that's where we are now. Elite: Convoluted.

I don't see it as all that difficult to grasp. If you want to crap on stuffs, no one can stop you. But, it doesn't go unnoticed.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

It would be nice if there was the occasional - OH this NPC I just scanned has a ridiculous bounty if I turn it in 60ly from here... I might actually pay attention to the transactions panel.

I agree with this - every once in a while it would be nice to run across heavily wanted NPCs. Would make keeping a KWS on hand more meaningful.

 

[kofeyh]

I agree with this - every once in a while it would be nice to run across heavily wanted NPCs. Would make keeping a KWS on hand more meaningful.

Sure; until you realise that they might have a ridiculous bounty that remains unreported because the procedural system picked a different major power. Because of course, at times, it would. That crime of course wasn't important.

Look the KWS could have done with some love; making mostly redundant isn't where I would have gone with it, but that's fair enough. It's freed up space on all of about 2 ships at this point.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

If you use the interstellar factors I don't understand how you're helping or hindering any faction.

They can fix the fact they don't track the location, it's just another attribute to each bounty record, surely shouldn't be too hard to fix. Implementing the influence fix would take longer, probably why they don't want to do it for 3.0, which is why I suggested 3.1

Currently and also in Sandro's proposal I kill some ships. My rep drops. I turn in bounties to that faction rep goes back up. If I turn in those bounties in a specific system that minor faction's influence goes up too. If I DON'T want their influence to go up I turn in to IF and my rep goes back up but their influence does not.

Works real well right now, and will continue to work well with Sandro's proposal. Your way, I'm going to boost the influence of minor factions that I do not want to support.

 

[Riverside]

Sure; until you realise that they might have a ridiculous bounty that remains unreported because the procedural system picked a different major power. Because of course, at times, it would. That crime of course wasn't important.

Look the KWS could have done with some love; making mostly redundant isn't where I would have gone with it, but that's fair enough. It's freed up space on all of about 2 ships at this point.

You will still receive all the vouchers the NPC has, because of the way they are generated. Sandro explained this, your total rewards should be the same.

The changes to the KWS are because another, higher priority part of the C&P system imposed the change.

Sometimes just a change can be enough, it doesn't need to be better, just different. Given the (new) design constraints I'm happy with this proposal. If 3.0 is implemented with this & it doesn't change, I can happily live with it. Hopefully it will be monitored (along with the rest of C&P) and tweaked if desired.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Sure; until you realise that they might have a ridiculous bounty that remains unreported because the procedural system picked a different major power. Because of course, at times, it would. That crime of course wasn't important.

Look the KWS could have done with some love; making mostly redundant isn't where I would have gone with it, but that's fair enough. It's freed up space on all of about 2 ships at this point.

Wow, you're sour tonight, girl!

 

[kofeyh]

You will still receive all the vouchers the NPC has, because of the way they are generated. Sandro explained this, your total rewards should be the same.

This is now untested due to changes; so I tend to think no it won't, until shown otherwise.

The changes to the KWS are because another, higher priority part of the C&P system imposed the change.

Indeed.

Sometimes just a change can be enough, it doesn't need to be better, just different.

Change for the sake of change? No. Not really. This isn't true in practice; change always requires a purpose and goal; the lack of either means there's no way to measure outcomes - or even understand the consequences. Like I said, fair enough. It's just not a module I'll consider using for the foreseeable future; and it had limited value as it was.

And I am now somewhat concerned as to what this may mean for the disco scanners, or indeed any of the other scanners, in future.

Wow, you're sour tonight, girl!

Not really. I'd have prefered the KWS had a stronger role to play. Not a more convoluted one that ostensibly means more crime will simply go unreported. Also, girl? Am flattered, but think you need glasses, perhaps.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Not really. I'd have prefered the KWS had a stronger role to play. Not a more convoluted one that ostensibly means more crime will simply go unreported. Also, girl? Am flattered, but think you need glasses, perhaps.

I know, it was a joke derived from that other thread

 

[kofeyh]

I know, it was a joke derived from that other thread

I sort of hoped it was. I think people sometimes assume I am very anti-Frontier. Not at all. I guess it's because I think of them a great deal, that I simply hold them to a higher standard. Because I know, when nudged, they can do good things. Just not sure if Sandy is approaching this as an exercise to improve the mechanics, or to just make them "more interesting".

 

[Riverside]

Change for the sake of change? No. Not really. This isn't true in practice; change always requires a purpose and goal; the lack of either means there's no way to measure outcomes - or even understand the consequences. Like I said, fair enough. It's just not a module I'll consider using for the foreseeable future; and it had limited value as it was.

And I am now somewhat concerned as to what this may mean for the disco scanners, or indeed any of the other scanners, in future.

Change works psychologically, it helps the users/employees/customers feel the devs/management value them. In this case it had to change, so it's more a case of making the best of it rather than change for changes sake though.

As far as other scanners are concerned the community has been clamouring for improvements to exploration, so I imagine a similar situation may come up, yes. We can cross that bridge when we get to it.


The part about total rewards not being total bounties really only affects PvP, NPCs should be generated with the same total bounties as before, only who the voucher can be claimed from changes. Again I'm just repeating what Sandro has said in this thread. It'll get tested in a few days & inevitably there will be bugs, but we at least know how it is intended to work (whether we agree with it or not). Your experience based feedback will undoubtedly be helpful after it goes live.

 

[Vasious]

It took you seven individual statements to explain a single scanner function. None of this will be recorded in the game; so anyone who hasn't spent time reading the OP, or the eleventy following amendments will have no idea how this now works.

Not everything requires a complicated solution. But that's where we are now. Elite: Convoluted.

Essentially, the KWS ceases to really be of use; because the AI has procedural generation so a lot of the time they will have no reported bounties (even if the system added them, they're for the major power it won't show) and therefore will often show just the local crime. It's cool; utility space is at a premium, so I have no problem not using one at all.

I've long since lost track of what issue this is supposed to be solving. Reading through the thread, it seems this is a common theme.

Well at the End of the day, very simple

Scan ship with ship sensors, if shows as wanted by controlling faction, can attack for a bounty
Scan wanted ship with KWS, if shows as wanted can attack for bounties from multiple factions.

Vindelanos covers of the nuances of interest to those who would look inot it more if they wanted more than just CR

 

[kofeyh]

Vindelanos covers of the nuances of interest to those who would look inot it more if they wanted more than just CR

Actually credits are the least of my concern. And it's not actually that simple; AI are procedurally generated. They are going to have faction bounties created, that will be invisible due to the major power consideration. Their local bounties are irrelevant, as that's not what a KWS scanner was ever intended to address. KWS exists for bounties that are not local.

If an AI is generated, that has an imperial bounty, and it flies in federal space, then my understanding is that bounty will not be reported because it was not 'gained' in federal space, because AI are not persistent and are inserted based on a set of rules. AI don't earn their bounty. They are generated with them.

It's not a concern about credits; it's ensuring a mechanic actually works properly. Because that's actually the important bit.

Edit: AI apparently will not spawn with non-local bounties; they will always be local for the interim. Well that's perfect. I can 100% remove the KWS as it's now entirely redundant (local crimes do not need a KWS, and if a commander is already shooting at me, whether they have a schrodinger's bounty (it simultaneously does and doesn't exist, depending on when it's observed) is the least of my concerns).

I'm glad Frontier is at least looking at how the KWS works, I'm just not sure who they're pitching the new mechanics to, and under what scenario it's actually worth using.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

They are pitching it to PvP players, not PvE players.

The new C&P was paramount in their design mind space. How it affected PvE was not considered until the mine field started going BOOM under their feet.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Question:

If I am interdicted, and too busy to KWS, and not shooting back (my typical trading/exploration encounter), why should I carry a KWS, If I am only running?

Second, what good is a Nav Beacon, or RES, if I cannot gather an easily understood reputation gain/loss with a KWS? Much of the time, I am too busy staying alive to see if there are offsetting rep gains/losses.

For me, the proposed changes are better than previous suggested ones, but do not make the KWS simple, or worthwhile using.

I appreciate the work that has gone into crafting these new suggestions. But, at the end of the day, the changes are made for PvP, not PvE. This does not improve my gameplay.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Question:

If I am interdicted, and too busy to KWS, and not shooting back (my typical trading/exploration encounter), why should I carry a KWS, If I am only running?

Second, what good is a Nav Beacon, or RES, if I cannot gather an easily understood reputation gain/loss with a KWS? Much of the time, I am too busy staying alive to see if there are offsetting rep gains/losses.

For me, the proposed changes are better than previous suggested ones, but do not make the KWS simple, or worthwhile using.

I appreciate the work that has gone into crafting these new suggestions. But, at the end of the day, the changes are made for PvP, not PvE. This does not improve my gameplay.

If you struggled before hand to use it, what is the difference now?

They are pitching it to PvP players, not PvE players.

The new C&P was paramount in their design mind space. How it affected PvE was not considered until the mine field started going BOOM under their feet.

Nope. It's just as good for PvE. Really do not understand this thinking.

 

[Night Parrot]

I hope I haven’t missed the point, but just to be clear on the terms “jurisdiction” and “licence to kill”.

I gather that “Jurisdiction” is in system only and not Power Play e.g. if a system is owned by an independent faction then any detected Federal, Empire or Alliance bounties will not give you a “licence to kill” in an independent owned system…