The BGS

[Urbanski101]

Yup...i'm gonna go there.

I'm a BGS layman. For me it's a bit like a car, I have a basic understanding of how it works but open the bonnet/hood and I'm a bit lost and fairly disinterested.

I understand the BGS is necessary to generate faction states, missions etc and I understand it needs to be accelerated and gamified because...er it's a game.

However the BGS has been annoying me more and more...this picture is just one of the reasons why it annoys me.

If you'd care to gaze at the top right part of this image...the faction state and pending states.

This is just nonsense. How can you have Civil Unrest followed by Boom, Bust and Lockdown at the same time?

I'm sure someone who really understands the BGS could explain the conditions that would lead to this but the technical reason for me is irrelevant. From a common sense / logic POV it's nonsense.

Along with these kind of anolmolies there is almost no information in game about how these states occur, the results from these states, how it effects the factions involved or why.

E.g. Two factions are in a civil war in a system. Why are they fighting? Over what, resources, station rights, territory? Who won and what does that mean to the factions involved and the system as a whole?

There is almost no information on any of this other than what's in the station panel which is not explicit and you have to kind of guess. It's one of the reason why I find it difficult to engage with the BGS in any meaningful way.

IMO it's abstract, disjointed and illogical.

Before the ususal suspects jump all over this, I'm not looking for hand holding or being spoon fed or being a special snowflake in my own story arc rescuing a princess, far from it. I just want it to make sense and have some context. Yes, I can imangine my own context but I don't really want to. That's not what I paid for, if I'm going to imagine it I may as well sit in a white room and imagine the whole game without the expensive PC.

When Beyond was announced I was hoping they would address the BGS as part of the core gameplay changes. Maybe they will...I really hope they do.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'll try to explain :

Several Faction States can go pending at the same time or after another, while a few are exclusive.

War/Civil War/Elections = Exclusive to each other (can't be Pending : War and Pending : Election at the same time)

Pretty much all others are non-exclusive.

There's even the oddball case of Pending : Boom and Pending : Bust at the same time, since both are separate buckets that can be filled.
Since they're somewhat tied to each other, normal BGS activity typically never permits that. But active, negative Player actions can still achieve and trigger such a constellation.

What Faction State goes active 1st will depend on the Tier of the Faction State and how full the bucket is.
Tier 1 : War, Civil War, Elections
Tier 2 : Expansion, Retreat, Investment
Tier 3 : Boom, Famine, Outbreak, Bust, Civil Unrest, Lockdown

So if you're pending Lockdown and pending Boom for example but execute -Lockdown Missions/Events, you can still drain that bucket. Lockdown will remain pending, but the parallel Pending Boom State is then very likely to go active first.
That allows to "stall" a single or multiple Pending States, when others are Pending as well.

PS.
The Faction you've presented for example basically looks like this to me :
- sustained Weapons Trading has likely caused the Faction to enter a Period of Civil Unrest, due to the massive influx of Weapons flooding the Market
- the Faction itself is reasonably wealthy and well-supported otherwise, hence it is pending a Boom State
- however, Players hostile to the Faction have forced losses upon its Economy (failed Missions, negative Trade), which puts a dent into its Finances. Something went wrong. It'll thus undergo a short period where they "sort things out", temporarily reducing profits
- additionally, Players hostile to the Faction have undermined its Security (killing Clean Ships or Authority or Smuggling), which the Faction will eventually have to take care of as well by raising Security to clean up the situation

------------------
Anyway, such questions are best posted in the dedicated BGS SubForum :
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/240-The-BGS

 

[Urbanski101]

I'll try to explain :

Several Faction States can go pending at the same time or after another, while a few are exclusive.

War/Civil War/Elections = Exclusive to each other (can't be Pending : War and Pending : Election at the same time)

Pretty much all others are non-exclusive.

There's even the oddball case of Pending : Boom and Pending : Bust at the same time, since both are separate buckets that can be filled.
Since they're somewhat tied to each other, normal BGS activity typically never permits that. But active, negative Player actions can still achieve and trigger such a constellation.

What Faction State goes active 1st will depend on the Tier of the Faction State and how full the bucket is.
Tier 1 : War, Civil War, Elections
Tier 2 : Expansion, Retreat, Investment
Tier 3 : Boom, Famine, Outbreak, Bust, Civil Unrest, Lockdown

So if you're pending Lockdown and pending Boom for example but execute -Lockdown Missions/Events, you can still drain that bucket. Lockdown will remain pending, but the parallel Pending Boom State is then very likely to go active first.
That allows to "stall" a single or multiple Pending States, when others are Pending as well.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Your post actually highlights the very problem with the BGS IMO.

I know technically it's possible in the game to have boom and bust happening at the same time as you've explained and as my image shows, but is it logical?

IMO no, not at all.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

The way I see it, one could say : "We're profitable and will enter a Boom due to these Profits - however we've identified significant errors in our financial bookkeeping, forcing our hand to investigate and enforce a Bust State while we do the clean-up work".

So the Faction is successful financially (Boom) - but there's something wrong with the finances (Bust), which the Faction needs to take care of.

In that light, it makes more sense. Otherwise, I'd fully agree that it looks rather awkward without any further in-game explanation of this constellation.
(it's a fairly rare one though, but dedicated Players acting against the Faction (typically to reduce Influence) can easily cause a whole array of Pending States)

Only few BGS Players see these coming (unsure if my Early Warning mechanics for Faction Trend build-ups still work in 2.4 and in the bubble) and combat them in time.
Plus, quite a few Faction States aren't really harmful and don't interfere with normal BGS work. Thus, they often receive little attention.

 

[Dommarraa]

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Your post actually highlights the very problem with the BGS IMO.

I know technically it's possible in the game to have boom and bust happening at the same time as you've explained and as my image shows, but is it logical?

IMO no, not at all.

If something as minor as this grinds your gears, I respectfully suggest you walk, nah RUN from the BGS. Its a black box full of eels.
Me, I love it.

 

[Urbanski101]

If something as minor as this grinds your gears, I respectfully suggest you walk, nah RUN from the BGS. Its a black box full of eels.
Me, I love it.

LOL...I agree...The BGS is a scary thing best left alone

As far as grinding my gears...I don't have sleepless night over it, it's just nonsense and I thought I'd find out if I'm alone in thinking that.

I mean can you imagine the weekly BGS update to their members from some of these factions?

Lifted from a previous post.

LHS 3458 Gold Partners - BGS weekly update.

This week as you know we've been recovering from a nasty outbreak of something whilst fighting a civil war with those blighters the LHS 3458 Progression Party. We fully expect the war to be over within the next few days. It's not really possible to say who will win or what the outcome of this war will be, or indeed what we were fighting about, but you've all done a sterling job...well done.

Next week once the war is over and nobody has won or lost we're expecting a period of famine...there's a rough few days ahead chaps, so stock up on those food cartridges. There's no particular reason for the famine, we just haven't had one for a while so we thought we'd just change things up. The good news is that directly after the famine and for no explicable reason we'll be experiencing a boom period and I know how much you all enjoy those...so that's something to look forward to.

Our long term goal has always been expansion into another system as this will mean we will experience more of these inexplicable and transient states with greater frequency, variety is the spice of life after all. Now then...best foot forward, eyes to the horizon and don't ask too many questions....off you go!

 

[Adhock]

Hun you need to visit the BGS subforum.

But I'll break it down.

How can you have Civil Unrest followed by Boom, Bust and Lockdown at the same time?

The CURRENT STATE for THAT PARTICULAR faction is Civil Unrest. Other factions can be different states at the same time.

Essentially someone has been doing too many smuggler runs and providing illicit/illegal/banned goods. The population has been smoking the good stuff and they're starting to get riled up. Civil Unrest can also trigger if someone has been killing too many police/civilian ships.

This has an effect of lowering the security rating for the system. This is what's triggering the Pending Status of Lockdown which increases the Security Raiting but decreases the Wealth rating of the system.

A faction can have multiple pending statuses that haven't taken effect yet. That's why there's three of them. Whichever gets off warmup first and is higher on the priority list will take effect.

Each state also has it's own counter so you can prevent them if you want. Or end them faster.

I'm sure someone who really understands the BGS could explain the conditions that would lead to this but the technical reason for me is irrelevant. From a common sense / logic POV it's nonsense.

Actually it makes perfect sense when you think about the states and what their definition is.

Along with these kind of anolmolies there is almost no information in game about how these states occur, the results from these states, how it effects the factions involved or why.

Anomalies? Hardly. They're actually a good indicator what players have been up to in a system.

E.g. Two factions are in a civil war in a system. Why are they fighting? Over what, resources, station rights, territory? Who won and what does that mean to the factions involved and the system as a whole?

They're fighting for dominance. They have equal influence in a system and no one likes to share. So they're fighting to see who has the better projection power in the system. If one side or both have a station, the winner gets control of the station. If they have the same type of government however, it's an election.

There is almost no information on any of this other than what's in the station panel which is not explicit and you have to kind of guess. It's one of the reason why I find it difficult to engage with the BGS in any meaningful way.

IMO it's abstract, disjointed and illogical.

Again. It's not abstract. It's an indicator what players have been up to.

Before the ususal suspects jump all over this, I'm not looking for hand holding or being spoon fed-

Yes. Yes you are. There is an entire sub forum that explores the BGS and a megathread that explains almost every detail of the BGS. It was meant to be explored, cataloged, and cracked by players which is why it was left intentionally vague. They wanted us to discover how it worked for ourselves.

We did.

And that information is freely available.

You just don't want to look it up. You want it spoon fed to you.

When Beyond was announced I was hoping they would address the BGS as part of the core gameplay changes. Maybe they will...I really hope they do.

If they do spoon feed the BGS I'm not really going to care but really. The information is already available. Sit down and have a read.

 

[Urbanski101]

Fair enough.

It seems I'm alone in this and want spoon feeding...

*shuffles towards the door*

 

[Factabulous]

I've read in multiple threads that this game is a mile wide and an inch deep, so surely the BGS should be simple to master.....

NOT

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I know technically it's possible in the game to have boom and bust happening at the same time as you've explained and as my image shows, but is it logical?

They're not happening at the same time, though - they're both going to happen at some future point, in some order, not necessarily adjacent to each other. Depending on the order, this might be a temporary cashflow problem alleviated by a new economic opportunity (Bust first), or an unsustainable bubble followed by a crash (Boom first). Due to the pending Lockdown (or other pending states which might occur in future) it's also possible that one (or even both) of them won't happen at all as the security situation causes markets to be suspended - Pending states are (conflicts excepted, which are certain) likely to occur but won't always: consider them to be risks for the faction - maybe the economy is unstable [1] and they're gambling on something which might work, might go horribly wrong, or might be a bubble that appears to work for a short time.

For your general points: yes, a lot of it is not spelled out, and it has to be somewhat abstract. There is more in-game information on it than you might see - mission boards, faction leader statements, local Galnet, etc. all provide information. There used to be regular articles in the main Galnet which gave examples of factions in particular states and explained a bit about those states and their causes and effects but Frontier listened to the players and took them out Most of what is known has been discovered by experimentation ... and quite a lot of the finest detail may be resting inside the secret documents of various player groups being held for private advantage. But that's part of the design - it's called the *Background* simulation - it was never originally intended to be consciously manipulated, and it's intentionally even now opaque so that skill and knowledge can make it more than a pure numbers game.

Some people like discovering and analysing complex systems in games from minimal starting information - it's good that there's a bit of the game that's for them. (For those who want a more documented conflict mechanism, there's always PowerPlay)


[1] That set of states and pending states looks like they've just been on the losing end of a war, so an unstable economy and an upset public is pretty "realistic".

 

[John Xenir]

Hun you need to visit the BGS subforum.

But I'll break it down.



The CURRENT STATE for THAT PARTICULAR faction is Civil Unrest. Other factions can be different states at the same time.

Essentially someone has been doing too many smuggler runs and providing illicit/illegal/banned goods. The population has been smoking the good stuff and they're starting to get riled up. Civil Unrest can also trigger if someone has been killing too many police/civilian ships.

This has an effect of lowering the security rating for the system. This is what's triggering the Pending Status of Lockdown which increases the Security Raiting but decreases the Wealth rating of the system.

A faction can have multiple pending statuses that haven't taken effect yet. That's why there's three of them. Whichever gets off warmup first and is higher on the priority list will take effect.

Each state also has it's own counter so you can prevent them if you want. Or end them faster.



Actually it makes perfect sense when you think about the states and what their definition is.



Anomalies? Hardly. They're actually a good indicator what players have been up to in a system.



They're fighting for dominance. They have equal influence in a system and no one likes to share. So they're fighting to see who has the better projection power in the system. If one side or both have a station, the winner gets control of the station. If they have the same type of government however, it's an election.



Again. It's not abstract. It's an indicator what players have been up to.



Yes. Yes you are. There is an entire sub forum that explores the BGS and a megathread that explains almost every detail of the BGS. It was meant to be explored, cataloged, and cracked by players which is why it was left intentionally vague. They wanted us to discover how it worked for ourselves.

We did.

And that information is freely available.

You just don't want to look it up. You want it spoon fed to you.



If they do spoon feed the BGS I'm not really going to care but really. The information is already available. Sit down and have a read.

Thanks, Adhock, I'm starting to understand the bucket analogy in terms of game play mechanics.

 

[Jmanis]

Just saying...

 

[Urbanski101]

Just saying...

https://i.imgur.com/vhDeZAa.png

Yeah...that makes total sense....everything is as it should be, nothing illogical about any of it.

Emperors new clothes anyone...no...just me then

 

[MottiKhan]

Just saying...

https://i.imgur.com/vhDeZAa.png

Wow! You hit the motherlode!

 

[Schlack]

Before I could bring myself to bother with this monstrosity the BGS seems to be I have a more fundamental issue with the idea of system flipping. It's WHY at all are you doing it? What do you gain (like a certain sort of missions) that you can't otherwise from just flying a few systems away and get these missions there instead? What is it all about or what am I missing?

you might as well ask why go for the high score in Pac Man, why be top of the leader-board in counter-strike or why you've had that extra beer when you know you're already sloshed

 

[Sapyx]

If you want a real-world-analogue of a "pending boom" and "pending bust" happening at the same time, just look at anything volatile on the trade markets. I'll pick on bitcoin, since it's been in the news lately. The price of bitcoin might soar to new stratospheric heights. Or it might collapse into a heap of virtual debris. It's entirely likely that both are going to happen to it, in the relatively near future. Which ones actually do happen to it, and in which order, depend entirely on the few people who are capable of influencing it: the big bitcoin traders, and the legislators of various countries where bitcoin is popular.

Now, as to the concept of Wars. "What are they fighting for?". Essentially, they are fighting for control. Star systems where few CMDRs visit and nobody is doing much to support any of the factions are in a period of stasis: all the factions have their place in the hierarchy, and they all know their place and the smaller factions don't cause any trouble for the larger ones. But if CMDRs come along and support one of the smaller factions, that faction's influence increases. If this keeps happening, then sooner or later their influence will increase to be the same as the faction on the next rung up the latter of importance. That smaller faction then gets it into their heads that they've become more important and more powerful than the other faction, so that other faction can and should therefore be attacked. Thus, wars are always started by a smaller faction trying to take the place of a larger faction.

Wars are always fought one-on-one, as one faction versus another faction. The Superpowers never involve themselves directly in wars, but rather fight via their proxies, the minor factions. And while you can have two (or more) separate wars in the same star system, you can't have "complex" wars where two factions are ganging up on one other faction. A faction can only ever be involved in one war at any one time, so even if they have a presence in a dozen star systems, they can only fight wars one faction at a time.

The difference between a "War" and a "Civil War" is largely semantic: if both of the factions are native to the system where the war occurs, then they're having a Civil War. If one or both of the factions are intruders from other star systems, then it's a War.

Sometimes, "assets" - space stations, surface installations and whatnot - are involved in a war. In which case, if the asset-holder loses the war, it loses one of the assets it owns, handing control of that asset over to the victors. If both factions own one asset each when the war began, then the war is a "double or nothing" battle of control for both factions: whoever wins, will own both assets, and the loser will own nothing.

One of the factions is considered to be the "controlling faction" for the entire star system. This "controlling faction" owns the police ships in the nav beacon, RES sites and supercruise, and it is their laws that are enforced throughout the system (except in the 1000 km wide bubbles surrounding assets owned by other factions); this faction's Allegiance is also what will appear on the galaxy map. It's quite a cool thing to be, so most players want "their faction" to be the one in control of a system. System control, or "ownership", belongs to the faction that owns the "controlling asset". Which one is the controlling asset can be difficult to work out sometimes, because it's linked to hidden statistics such as an individual planet's population. As a general rule, it's the biggest, fanciest space station in a system. If the controlling faction loses a war, then control of the controlling asset, and therefore control of the entire system, changes hands to the victor.

Finally, war is not always the answer. When two factions are of like-minded political structure, they have an "election" instead of a war. The same things apply (a battle of influence, resulting in change of ownership of assets or even the entire system) except it's fought figuratively, by peaceful means, rather than literally with guns in combat zones. "Election" should not be taken literally - players don't "get to vote". Nor would two Feudalist factions actually have a literal election - they'd probably organize a jousting tourney, or some such. So "election" is just in-game shorthand for "resolve a conflict peacefully".

 

[Schlack]

Ah thanks, already expected something along these lines.
Guess it doesn't belong to me to say that, but the way I see it from afar is like going through five years at a scientific academy to be able to play with sand molds in the end. [big grin] <- sheepish grin

The technical challenge is part of the appeal. There's the empire building aspect to it. There's being at "home" in over 30 systems https://eddb.io/faction/20269. There's a focus for group action, an excuse and arena for direct PvP and indirect PvP in BGS battles with other groups. The strategic and tactical planning and execution and reaction to surprises and misfortunes. It a whole additional level of depth to the game. You wont understand unless you've been bitten by the bug.

 

[Gen-Han-Solo]

BGS I would not worry to much unless you have lots of time and are prepared to wait for long periods of time for it to make any difference the BGS still has a lot of BUGS and does not always work the way the DEV's have planned or say it works. I have been pushing & learning the BGS ever since launch so some times I know how it works some times it does its own thing then you have to wait for the DEV's to catch up or hope the check your bug reports. And then when they work out your bug report was correct you then have to hope they try and fix it.

Have a very nice day.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Before I could bring myself to bother with this monstrosity the BGS seems to be I have a more fundamental issue with the idea of system flipping. It's WHY at all are you doing it? What do you gain (like a certain sort of missions) that you can't otherwise from just flying a few systems away and get these missions there instead? What is it all about or what am I missing?

Short answer: to make your mark on the Galaxy and give you purpose beyond the mindless stacking of credits.

Long answer:


I like to see the BGS as the equivalent to a Garden.

In both you have to carefully nurture your plants (MFs) to make them bloom and grow. You want to create something - either alone or with others - that is visible for everyone when opening up the Galaxy map.

Every day.

You will need to support either your MF or others to make them get into conflict to take over more assets. Or simply boost your own without making it overgrow itself. The worst that can happen is that you go too fast too far and have no means to maintain and secure your sphere of influence.

It helps a lot to have a Lore in a Wing to drive the BGS, giving even more reason to the daily ongoings.

Planning ahead, scanning the surrounding Systems and altering them to your needs. Being in diplomatic relations with your PMF neighbours and the Powerplay community you're in to avoid unneccesary problems.

Unless you're just a BGS troll that doesn't care for the efforts of others and have no concept of what it truly takes to play the BGS.

I could go on for a while now but I guess I got the basic concept through Why people do it. Though I bet there are plenty of other reasons to name still.

 

[Roybe]

Fair enough.

It seems I'm alone in this and want spoon feeding...

*shuffles towards the door*

No, you're not alone...but because this was posted in the BGS subforum (or subsequently moved here from elsewhere) you dissatisfaction with the lack of overarching, cohesive, logic is not going to be echoed.

We will help you understand why this occurs in the game...but most have given up on the way the forest looks...as long as we understand how to make the trees do what we want.