What if Shield Boosters Weren't Protected by the Shield?

[Truesilver]

I will be very interested to see how the new weapons / effects Sandro vaguely trailed in the Livestream affect PvP balance as they're introduced through the 3.x series.

I've been asking for the ability to attack boosters directly since mid-2016, and apparently this is coming.

However, without other major changes, all that does is condemn a big ship in a wing fight to death by super penetrator firing squad. The Hull Hardness buff to 210 would not help enough to make much difference, against APV of 100.

So, although I welcome the news, a lot will have to be considered.

 

[thelivingdeadguy]

I will be very interested to see how the new weapons / effects Sandro vaguely trailed in the Livestream affect PvP balance as they're introduced through the 3.x series.

I've been asking for the ability to attack boosters directly since mid-2016, and apparently this is coming.

However, without other major changes, all that does is condemn a big ship in a wing fight to death by super penetrator firing squad. The Hull Hardness buff to 210 would not help enough to make much difference, against APV of 100.

So, although I welcome the news, a lot will have to be considered.

But shouldn’t a big ship have to think very carefully about taking on a wing fight alone anyway?

I’m reminded of the fight against the Donnager in the Expanse. Huge capital taken down by well-piloted advanced smaller ships.

One advantage big ships have that no-one has mentioned so far is that they can always just jump away, low wake even.

Their tank, in combination with their own wing of small ships can be horrendous to deal with. We have a guy in our wing who can soak up damage in his Vette while our fdls engage. If they don’t shoot at him then his weaponry quickly starts to take its toll and we can always just boost back to him if we’re in trouble.

This would still work with the vulnerable boosters idea, you’d just need to protect your capital ship.

Solo capitals should still have more than enough shield to disengage from a bad engagement even with this idea and sometimes even big ships need to do that.

 

[Frenotx]

I will be very interested to see how the new weapons / effects Sandro vaguely trailed in the Livestream affect PvP balance as they're introduced through the 3.x series.

I've been asking for the ability to attack boosters directly since mid-2016, and apparently this is coming.

However, without other major changes, all that does is condemn a big ship in a wing fight to death by super penetrator firing squad. The Hull Hardness buff to 210 would not help enough to make much difference, against APV of 100.

So, although I welcome the news, a lot will have to be considered.

That mostly just tells me that super penetrator (and high yield) need adjustment. A special effect shouldn't completely negate all hull defenses, and create a complete and absolute reliance on shields. So many obvious design problems there.

 

[Aashenfox]

death by super penetrator firing squad.

This. Super pens and target lock breakers are immersion breakingly OP, and silly. High yield needs to have less effect on hardpoints then its ok.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Anything over 1000 Mj in PvE is overkill, even for a big ship. I'd love SuperPen to be moderated by hull hardness, so if you shoot a marshmallow ship it goes all the way through, while if you shoot a T -10 it does half the damage to the line of modules.

 

[Truesilver]

But shouldn’t a big ship have to think very carefully about taking on a wing fight alone anyway?

Oh, I didn't mean alone. In my experience, 1v2 is viable, Big Ship v Mediums, but the Big Ship won't win with the utmost apex builds and piloting on both sides. Weaker but still respectable pairings can be defeated, though.

1v3 or 1v4 is not even worth attempting unless the Big Guy has reason to suspect noob-ism on the other side.

We have a guy in our wing who can soak up damage in his Vette while our fdls engage. If they don’t shoot at him then his weaponry quickly starts to take its toll and we can always just boost back to him if we’re in trouble.

This was the sort of thing I was talking about.

High yield needs to have less effect on hardpoints then its ok.

HYS affects hardpoints? I had never specifically checked that but had guessed it was hard-limited to internals only. I'm now going to have to go and re-watch some of my archived vids. Interesting, TY.

About Big Ships specifically, though, the true threat I think is still Super Pen because the gap between modules means that HYS lacks the devastating effect it can have on mediums. Smalls are near insta-gutted by both, of course.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Always funny to see those who are unable to properly pilot large ships, and need a megashield safety blanket to keep the mean NPC's away, talk about their piloting inability like it makes them tough. And then watch how that "toughness" leads directly to frenzied freakouts whenever someone suggests new booster mechanics, and the wanna be tough-guy plea of "stop suggesting things that hurt my security blankie!".

The "confidence" you kids have in the current state of affairs - how quickly the pouty tears come out when an idea is suggested - is pretty telling of how much faith you really have that the status quo is actually balanced.

Or, instead of attacking each other personally, how about we talk about the topic on the merits, eh? Discuss the mechanics proposed and their strengths or weaknesses.

You guys always resorting directly to false accusations of "If you don't love mega-shields, you don't fight in big ships" (yes, I do fight in my Corvette and T-10, quite a lot), or nonsense accusations of sinister motives of trying to kill big ships are frankly childish, and showcase your insecurity.

The immediate jump to ad-hominem really just indicates you have no real logic to fall back on. Really the only logical thing you guys said was the claim that those wanting shield changes are often hybrid hull-tankers. Yeah, no crap. 'Cause it works just fine.

I really don't think at all the OP's suggestion is any sort of death sentence to big ships. If someone is taking the time to target and destroy each of my Corvette's four shield boosters, neat, let them go for it. I'm still shooting them that entire time, and my shields are still working that entire time. I think

If you're scared to death of packhounds, fine. A simple suggestion of "splash damage shouldn't damage boosters when shields are up" is entirely reasonable and addresses the point. You don't need to divert the thread into personal attacks.

The previous beta, that increased hull hardness of big ships while addressing shield imbalance, was a great way to address the issue of dropped shields on big ships, and probably should come back if booster changes are ever made. That change was the start of making big ships the unkillable powerhouses you so clearly want them to be. As someone who likes flying and fighting in his Corvette and T-10, it would be cool to get that kind of power back.

 

[Moritasgus]

Personally i think the way forward is much stronger hulls but weaker shields.
Shields should help prolong a fight but shouldn't be an invincibility bubble, give us cheap repairs, stronger hulls so that shields down isn't game over and faster shield recharge.
Combat should involve damage to both combatants but increasing the hull should make it fatal less often.

The problem is convincing the players who currently hide behind an impenetrable shield that like the engineering changes, damage during combat would be good for the game.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

That mostly just tells me that super penetrator (and high yield) need adjustment. A special effect shouldn't completely negate all hull defenses, and create a complete and absolute reliance on shields. So many obvious design problems there.

Yes. If there's one or two specials that are problematic, those can and should be addressed. The game clearly wants, and the devs have clearly stated their desire, to see us use their hybrid shield/hull design. With the variance being in degrees of leaning on one side or the other, and not the massive swings stacking and engineering permits today.

Some sort of change to break the shield meta is inevitable. It's only a question of how and when, which is why conversations like this are useful. It's how we can help try to steer the how into ways that we find fun.

 

[dfgqsb]

Clearly you never fly/fight against a big ship in PVP.
In each beta i've spend all my bills on rebuys to see the changes (Specially in that beta that sandro nerfed boosters to try increase hull hardness, that results in a total faliure since hardness means nothing in the big ones)
I NEVER see any ship run ot of ammo in PVP. Because people know how to synthesis.

All turets boats = never see ONE in pvp.
Effects apply in large too = For sure, big ships take all the hits since they can't evade most of time.
Small HP Pool = yeah, even widouth silent running i'ts pretty hard to hit an COBRA even if the guy stand in your line of fire, because you know, small ships are small, one cobra with 2K integrity can stay much more time in the battle just because she is hard to hit.
Internal/External and module damage = you need to hit to do damage.

Well that's weird, why do I have ton of videos that I shooting large ships?...
And I fight them in live server as well
Not gonna lie that I did fight much more mediums than large ships... Maybe 1000:100... but "Clearly you never fly/fight against a big ship in PVP."? That is a little impetuous...
Even with synthesis, mediums can't out dps a lot of turrets and slf. (and I did said "Medium ships simply don't have enough ammo or DPS to crack your 7000mj shield and 10000mj SCBs. Not even with feedback cascade rails or synthesis.")

I wouldn't say all turreted ships are everywhere, but if you have never seen one, it probably means you should go to CG more often.
You can be evasive in large ships, of course not as evasive as an FDL, but it would effectively force your opponent to spend more time to aim and control the distance. Using the lateral/vertical thrusters and actively doing pip management/boost would definitely make a lot of difference.
Small ships with 2k integrity are hard to kill, for anyone. I don't see any reason that they should be easy to kill. Besides, if you have some laser turrets and a beam/pulse slf, they won't last for too long.
External damage? Faoff boost flip and keep reverse flying, then start to spam missiles. Internal damage? High yield cannon, gimballed or turreted.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

The problem is convincing the players who currently hide behind an impenetrable shield that like the engineering changes, damage during combat would be good for the game.

Nah, you just gotta makes the changes, imo. You're never going to convince everyone without it actually being done and them being able to see for themselves. And even then, some will just delude themselves about how things were so much better "back when..." That sort of rose-tinted nostalgia just human nature, so amout of logic, facts, or proof will ever change it all.

 

[Aashenfox]

Oh, I didn't mean alone. In my experience, 1v2 is viable, Big Ship v Mediums, but the Big Ship won't win with the utmost apex builds and piloting on both sides. Weaker but still respectable pairings can be defeated, though.

1v3 or 1v4 is not even worth attempting unless the Big Guy has reason to suspect noob-ism on the other side.



This was the sort of thing I was talking about.



HYS affects hardpoints? I had never specifically checked that but had guessed it was hard-limited to internals only. I'm now going to have to go and re-watch some of my archived vids. Interesting, TY.

About Big Ships specifically, though, the true threat I think is still Super Pen because the gap between modules means that HYS lacks the devastating effect it can have on mediums. Smalls are near insta-gutted by both, of course.

I might be wrong, apologies if I am misleading, now that you mention it, I think their effect on hardpoints may already have been addressed some time ago, still worth checking though, I'd say.

 

[Speedy O]

I'm kinda thinking that not many big shippers are gonna want to nerf themselves... No turkey is gonna vote for christmas, if you'll forgive the metaphor....

As I see it, the way to nerf the booster thing, if FD aren't about the reintroduce the old beta diminishing returns deal, is to make us pay more of a price for stacking SB's

They should be tied, price, power and weight-wise, to size of shield. The bigger the Shield, the more sacrifice to make... Less jump range, less manoeuvrability etc....
So we could still stack them... but for a cost.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

The earlier proposed shield stacking nerf was the perfect solution.
And it freed up so many lovely utility slots for other cool stuff.

But apparently the winging whiners on this forum didn't like it.

If you need a 9000mj cutter to hit up a CZ I would seriously consider handing in my combat wings.
I know plenty people who tear them up in a <500mj vultures.

 

[Han_Zen]

Very simple... big ships would become completely useless.

Just buff their base shields. It's not hard and it frees up utilities for something useful.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

IMHO it could all be done. But several conditions exist.

Make 1000 Shield Points just as valuable as 1000 Hull Points. Make them an equal in terms of fighting/survival time.

Currently, SubSystem sniping and Module damage still makes an exposed hull way too vulnerable. You could fly a 10000 Hull Point Ship and still vanish faster than a 1000 Shield Point protected Ship.

The 2nd problem is the ludicrous DPS that can be achieved with Engineers. With some Weapons it's so severe that they basically can act like a "Smartbomb", insta-killing some fully Shielded Ships.
Before Engineers, agility and speed restrictions kept such builds in check and balanced them well (i.e. all Frag Loadout).
But with the Engineer bonuses, these balancing lines have been entirely wiped out.
As a Result, Shields, Shield Boosters and Resistances had to keep up and perform the same power creep leapfrog just as well.

On top, SYS Pip Setting can still (in a heartbeat) significantly boost Shield strength. The Hull or SubSystems do not offer anything comparable.
The Shields are in permanent process of restoring themselves. The Hull or SubSystems do not offer anything comparable (with the exceptions of limited, manual AFMU repairs or a very risky Reboot/Repair attempt during combat).

With all that in mind, I'd deem it highly difficult to achieve the Shield/Hull/SubSystem Balance required to permit somewhat limiting down Shield defenses...

 

[lecorsobreton]

I think shield generators should work like the SLF bay or SRV Hangar. A main internal with 3 sub-slots that you can fill with either shield boosters or shield cell banks. Remove shield boosters from utility slots and SCB as internals. Kind of military slots, except for shield-related stuff. There you go, problem solved.

 

[Jukelo]

I very much like the OP's idea. Then again I'd be in favor of removing Engineers altogether if Frontier can't fix the ridiculous powercreep they have introduced there.

 

[lecorsobreton]

IMHO it could all be done. But several conditions exist.
On top, SYS Pip Setting can still (in a heartbeat) significantly boost Shield strength. The Hull or SubSystems do not offer anything comparable.
The Shields are in permanent process of restoring themselves. The Hull or SubSystems do not offer anything comparable (with the exceptions of limited, manual AFMU repairs or a very risky Reboot/Repair attempt during combat).

With all that in mind, I'd deem it highly difficult to achieve the Shield/Hull/SubSystem Balance required to permit somewhat limiting down Shield defenses...

Firing weapons drains weap PIP, boosting drains Engine PIP, so why doesn't sys PIP get drained when fired upon?

 

[Han_Zen]

What if you shield-nerfers leave our mega-shields alone? Sandro said that FD would add special anti-shield weapons later (the flechette launcher is the first one).

In other words: WE WON, at least for now. Deal with it.

Every change like this makes the situation worse. It increases the gap between players and NPCs and between dedicated combat builds and multi-role builds.
It also pushes ED further into the realm of fantasy MMO, with magic spells and potions.

Put heavy diminishing returns on the boosters, restrict SCBs, MRPs and MRPs to military compartments and remove magic specials and premium synth. ammo.

If any ship becomes to weak from this, then their base values should be buffed. That benefits NPCs, traders, new player and multi-roles, not just veterans in their moster builds.