PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[lenna]

You can kill one player, and receive a warning if you make an offhand comment about the players supposed ethnicity.

The point is whether the individuals report you and whether there is enough evidence of the griefing type behaviour being deliberate and focused - and like I said there is no hard and fast rule for what does and does not constitute griefing. The reporting system is only effective if people report the cases of genuine griefing - and no "griefing" does not require direct textual/voice communication.

Both griefing and combat logging are offences in the eyes of the EULA and TOS.

The comment thing is something else that is racism and covered by other things.

Whether your behaviour constitutes griefing is something only FD can fairly judge, to me it sounds like habitual ganking which while not explicitly griefing is in someways as bad if not worse - but I leave it up to FD how they want to deal with such behaviours. The new C&P system seems to be a start.

 

[Stigbob]

The common theme being that they were edge cases that helped define the current rules. Although I don't recall anyone being punished or threatened for just station ramming. Everything I remember involved one exploit or another. Mode invasion you've just got wrong though. They've said repeatedly that it's up to the individuals to police their own groups, although going back after being kicked can be considered harassment. And I'm not even touching stream sniping. It's all been talked to death.

The rules have never been altered AFAIK, FDEV can pretty much make the call however they see fit.

I don't know anyone who got punished or threatened for ramming either but I know players complained about both happening. There was also a consistent splurge of rammers fleeing in a panic into high wake if they thought they were being recorded (pre speed limit) it used to be funny to wind them up. The mode invasion thing was always ban evasion after being kicked once.

Anyway the point I'm making is none of those things are actually specifically verboten (except maybe ban evasion) FDEV as the "game master" can effectively do what they like (and they do, we've seen that already) which is why I think the TOS and EULA make less sense than just abiding by Wheatons law.

 

[lenna]

You are allowed to kill the same cmdr over and over, we put people back into sidewinders, while streaming. Today our group sniped an iron man streamer and he reset his save.

Keep fantasizing but this game will never be the carebear space truck simulator that you all want.

There is a difference between what you are doing and true griefing.

And quit the carebear comments, no-one is saying any and all PvP behaviours are prohibited and comments like yours just reinforce the point some of us have been making about the apparent lack of popularity of PvP - it is the attitudes and behaviours of at least some PvPers largely at fault. Until such people wake up and smell the coffee the popularity situation is unlikely to change.

 

[Riverside]

I agree fully but we're talking about how this nonsense relates to pvp here.

In other words, the 'its okay to kill the same person over and over, until.you do it to kateclick, at which point frontier community management start threatening shadowbans' kind of debacles

Well yes, there is more interaction with strangers in freeform PvP than any other activity, so the chances of you being instanced with the kind of player that complains is inevitably higher too.

I'm currently on my way back to the bubble from Colonia, and last night I docked at one of those planetary outposts in a nebula (iirc the Eagle nebula, I could be wrong). While I was docked another player arrived and as you do in these lonely circumstances, we struck up a conversation about which direction we were headed etc. After chatting for a few minutes this player asked if I scanned all systems I passed through. 'Only the interesting ones' I replied. They responded with 'big mistake' and immediately logged off. I can only assume my answer failed some test of whether or not I was a 'true explorer'. I can't imagine even the meekest player deciding to complain about that player's apparent hostility.

I've had similar experiences about my not being a 'true PvP'er' and that I wouldn't understand (eg CLogging), I have been interdicted and shot at, it's a part of the way I play the game. But in this situation, analogous to the explorer one above, I can imagine some players might well complain (whether justified or not).


Bullying isn't okay in the game, and part of the definition of that is repeatedly attacking the same player. But if you & a friend are having some fun, you might also end up repeatedly killing the same player so it's about context. Even if a player really is bullying another they may get away with it despite it not being okay.

I can see where you are headed with the stream sniping thing, but using out of game tools (ie watching a twitch stream) is specifically addressed as an exploit in the T&C, I'm not sure this is the same as actual bullying (although again, context).

 

[ALGOMATIC]

There is a difference between what you are doing and true griefing.

And quit the carebear comments, no-one is saying any and all PvP behaviours are prohibited and comments like yours just reinforce the point some of us have been making about the apparent lack of popularity of PvP - it is the attitudes and behaviours of at least some PvPers largely at fault. Until such people wake up and smell the coffee the popularity situation is unlikely to change.

Define true griefing.

Only form of griefing is racial or homophobic slur in the comms (and I have been griefed in this way before, called me the N word although I am not black... over being killed in a game, go figure) I dont really care its just funny. This is harrasment I would say, but nothing you do in the game will ever be classified as griefing or harrasment because at the end of the day its just a video game.

 

[lenna]

Define true griefing.

There is not a clear cut definition for griefing as it is subjective in nature; However, it does not require any form of textual/voice communication that much is definite.

You can kill one player numerous times in a short space of time and it is griefing, but conversely kill a different player at the same frequency and it is not. What makes it griefing is how the target perceives the behaviour almost as much as the behaviour itself, if they do not feel negatively affected by it then in their context it is not griefing. If it is part of a mutually pre-arranged event then it would not constitute griefing either.

Even the above may not cover all cases that could constitute griefing - overall, if you use common sense and courtesy then you should avoid any legitimate complaints.

Racial or other slurs are not griefing - that is direct and straightforward harassment (or at least a direct breach of common courtesy) which is something else entirely.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

There is not a clear cut definition for griefing as it is subjective in nature; However, it does not require any form of textual/voice communication that much is definite.

You can kill one player numerous times in a short space of time and it is griefing, but conversely kill a different player at the same frequency and it is not. What makes it griefing is how the target perceives the behaviour almost as much as the behaviour itself, if they do not feel negatively affected by it then in their context it is not griefing. If it is part of a mutually pre-arranged event then it would not constitute griefing either.

Even the above may not cover all cases that could constitute griefing - overall, if you use common sense and courtesy then you should avoid any legitimate complaints.

Racial or other slurs are not griefing - that is direct and straightforward harassment (or at least a direct breach of common courtesy) which is something else entirely.

So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?
I would say if you get upset over a game that much maybe better not to play it.

 

[frostypaw]

Keep fantasizing but this game will never be the carebear space truck simulator that you all want.

Nobody wants that. If you could stop reverting to seeing people as that stereotype this conversation would be much easier.

I'm sure you want us to talk to you like you're a reasonable human being - offer others the same courtesy.

So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?

I would say if you get upset over a game that much maybe better not to play it.

It's not your game. That's why FDev have included modes and block features

They respect you enough to assume you can learn to play with others. Can you?

 

[Mohrgan]

So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?
I would say if you get upset over a game that much maybe better not to play it.

Then explain the reaction to Combat Loggers.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Then explain the reaction to Combat Loggers.

Task killing is cheating according to FDEV. With the current update the player bounty limit was lifted and players can claim millions by hunting criminals. Task killing will become a major issue.

 

[Mohrgan]

Task killing is cheating according to FDEV. With the current update the player bounty limit was lifted and players can claim millions by hunting criminals. Task killing will become a major issue.

In relation to your post saying:

"So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?
I would say if you get upset over a game that much maybe better not to play it."

Why do peeps get so emotional about cheating in a video game? Especially if you consider it better not to play said game if you get 'upset' over it. Mentioning the obvious, that is was cheating, completely misses the point of my question, and doesn't even do a reasonable job of side stepping the issue.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

In relation to your post saying:

"So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?
I would say if you get upset over a game that much maybe better not to play it."

Why do peeps get so emotional about cheating in a video game? Especially if you consider it better not to play said game if you get 'upset' over it. Mentioning the obvious, that is was cheating, completely misses the point of my question, and doesn't even do a reasonable job of side stepping the issue.

I never saw anyone being upset with it, its ussualy handled by naming and shaming.
Not even close to the emotions running wild when someone gets ganked.

 

[Mohrgan]

I never saw anyone being upset with it, its ussualy handled by naming and shaming.
Not even close to the emotions running wild when someone gets ganked.

Oh, come on. You've never witnessed players calling for bans, and the like, for a simple CL? I'm sure you're aware of KoS lists. Are they a sign of being upset? You've never seen threads where CLers are called everything but the kitchen sink? I'm not going to spend any time searching any up, but you have to know what I'm talking about. Your credibility is wearing thin on this one.

If you can't find fault with one group, you might want to stay away from giving advice to another group. The hysteria over CLers can be as strong as any brought out by griefers.

 

[lenna]

So you are saying that if their feelings got hurt it becomes griefing?

It is not just that - it is because someone engaged in a deliberate sequence of actions directed against a specific target. True griefing is a form of harassment in effect - the end effect of griefing could disrupt an individual's progression and/or waste them real world gaming time. Harassment can take many forms and is expressly prohibited by the devs.

The C&P changes should help with mitigating the cases of people blockading a system/region against all players in anything but anarchy/lawless systems. In the blockading case, it is a lot more grey but ultimately that is more an in-game crime case than true griefing.

However, in the overall question of PvP popularity, it does not matter if we are talking about griefing or ganking the end effect for PvP popularity (and the popularity of Open) is largely the same - it does not help it and is in fact damaging to it. Trying to defend such behaviours in open forums like this just gives more weight to the position of those that avoid PvP largely because of players that either engage in or support these behaviours.

 

[Stigbob]

I never saw anyone being upset with it, its ussualy handled by naming and shaming.
Not even close to the emotions running wild when someone gets ganked.

Come off it, how many things along with clogging have been or currently are supposedly "cancer for PVP" it's constant hysterical whinging about almost everything, usually because other players are allowed to choose to do things their way. Look how super furious the mere existence of Mobius makes some people.

 

[Kefhyr]

It is not just that - it is because someone engaged in a deliberate sequence of actions directed against a specific target. True griefing is a form of harassment in effect - the end effect of griefing could disrupt an individual's progression and/or waste them real world gaming time. Harassment can take many forms and is expressly prohibited by the devs.

The C&P changes should help with mitigating the cases of people blockading a system/region against all players in anything but anarchy/lawless systems. In the blockading case, it is a lot more grey but ultimately that is more an in-game crime case than true griefing.

However, in the overall question of PvP popularity, it does not matter if we are talking about griefing or ganking the end effect for PvP popularity (and the popularity of Open) is largely the same - it does not help it and is in fact damaging to it. Trying to defend such behaviours in open forums like this just gives more weight to the position of those that avoid PvP largely because of players that either engage in or support these behaviours.

Well Elite Dangerous was released more than 3 years ago already, and still we dont have any real PvP popularity problems. I dont have problems with finding journeys for my butt. There's always someone to destroy, combat pilot on FDL or trader on T9. We dont have some kind of "global PvP", galaxy is too big for it, PvP is concentrated in popular systems and systems between popular trading spots.

Btw we have only one thread here about "low popularity" in PvP. And even here i see 90% of participants are Mobius people, who never play Open. People who like fight, they fight. People who like PvE, for some reason stay on forums and discuss about PvP popularity, even when they dont know what it is all about. Strange stuff

 

[frostypaw]

i see 90% of participants are Mobius people, who never play Open

You have no way of knowing what mode the people here play in. Don't make stuff up.

As you correctly note it's been three years, mostly people are bored of this conversation.

Still not one of you lot has had the nuts to make a PvP Private group with combat logging a bannable offence so you can show us how much better the game is with that - if y'all are right it'll be the most popular group in the game in no time.

 

[Kefhyr]

You have no way of knowing what mode the people here play in. Don't make stuff up.

As you correctly note it's been three years, mostly people are bored of this conversation.

Still not one of you lot has had the nuts to make a PvP Private group with combat logging a bannable offence so you can show us how much better the game is with that - if y'all are right it'll be the most popular group in the game in no time.

Combat logging should be fixed with patches. Just added function like "1 minute after last hit, or your ship stays in game". You cant fix it with 100500 private groups

 

[Han_Zen]

Well Elite Dangerous was released more than 3 years ago already, and still we dont have any real PvP popularity problems. I dont have problems with finding journeys for my butt. There's always someone to destroy, combat pilot on FDL or trader on T9. We dont have some kind of "global PvP", galaxy is too big for it, PvP is concentrated in popular systems and systems between popular trading spots.

Btw we have only one thread here about "low popularity" in PvP. And even here i see 90% of participants are Mobius people, who never play Open. People who like fight, they fight. People who like PvE, for some reason stay on forums and discuss about PvP popularity, even when they dont know what it is all about. Strange stuff

Well if you want to know why PvP in ED isn't the success it could have been, it's not point in asking the players who enjoy the current format. Nor is it a point to ask those that don't want it to be popular.

If we want to help improve the numbers for PvP, there are two groups that should be asked. Dedicated PvP players that gave up and PvE players that likes PvP in other games, but haven't bothered in ED.

 

[Stigbob]

And even here i see 90% of participants are Mobius people, who never play Open.

Rubbish.