Lets talk about Earning Money (with spreadsheets)

[Genxav]

Hello Everyone,

Its been a crazy week with all thie gold rushes and easy money making bugs...so this is definitely a symptom of a bigger problem with the game on how it rewards it players for their time.

Quick story time:

Yesterday i was doing boom data deliver missions that are one of the technically well adjusted in the game-play side of things, they work, a bit boring yes but they work. BUT they don't pay much...at least not for a vet of years of playing the game, and that got me thinking, that the problem with the payout has been SCALABILITY.

Sure if you just started the game 10,000 credits for a deliver is kinda amazing, to outfit your shiny new sidewinder....but what if you are a vet using more expensive ships? well Scalability jumps out of the window at a certain point in the game

This game does not scale well its payouts for the vets.
it always feels so immersion breaking when you are a
Deadly pilot/Elite explorer/Broker trader and a Imperial Duke and yet they treat you like garbage and all those rank grinds dont matter one bit. Something is missing.

IMO Imperial Ranks/ Federation Ranks/ Polots Federation Ranks need to give you some sort of bonus, a payout multiplier. on top of the base payout given by anything Credit Related be it mission rewards or bounties.

Why because its a game and games require progression, need to validate and respect the time the player put into it and lets be real, we need better balance on the endgame payout.

The following Graph show some results on hypothetical bonus multiplier. Is not my job to balance the game but Fdev, but for me these numbers seem not to high not to low. In the end they need to pay enough to let vets mantain their ships and not overpay so that newbies blaze trough the early game.

This is a linear increase.
Leave your comments and lets discuss about the subject

1000 Credit Example

10,000 Credit Example

100,000 Credit Example

1,000,000 Credit Example

2,00,000 Credit Example

 

[CMDR Beltane]

Huh, well - while i kinda would cut that multiplier in half, but i generally like the idea. Ranks are, outside of gaining faction ships, pretty much meaningless at the moment. Your idea would be an incentive to gain ranks, and it would also still hold to the "earn your way up idea". However, to make that happens, amongst other things, the Alliance for instance would need ranks as well. And as i have been out for quite a while, i dunno if FD ever mentioned something like that beeing implemented anyywhere in the future. But yea, as said, imho, and even if the exact amount of modifier would be a topic to discuss, i think its not even half bad of an idea to make a compromise between oldschool and newer gamers.

 

[Genxav]

Huh, well - while i kinda would cut that multiplier in half, but i generally like the idea. Ranks are, outside of gaining faction ships, pretty much meaningless at the moment. Your idea would be an incentive to gain ranks, and it would also still hold to the "earn your way up idea". However, to make that happens, amongst other things, the Alliance for instance would need ranks as well. And as i have been out for quite a while, i dunno if FD ever mentioned something like that beeing implemented anyywhere in the future. But yea, as said, imho, and even if the exact amount of modifier would be a topic to discuss, i think its not even half bad of an idea to make a compromise between oldschool and newer gamers.

Not sure about cutting the multipliers in half , why would you? and where?

But yeah, Ranks in general are useless, Power Ranks only unlock ships and nothing else, its all meaningless .
It would be amazing if there was a Alliance Rank, but if there wasn't, simply put, you would not get those extra 2.4 multiplier on you final payout.

At least having ranks will have meaning and a use

 

[Genxav]

seriously......nobody else want to get into the discussion? :/

 

[CMDR Beltane]

Not sure about cutting the multipliers in half , why would you? and where?

Because i am one of those "evil" oldschoolers who like that things take its time. Thats what i bought when this game was released, thats what i expected from what i have heared, read and seen before i bought it.
To me, nothing needs to be changed but a bit of balancing out all professions so each and every one of them is something worthwile.

Nevertheless, i do appreciate your effort to seek some common ground and the idea that Ranks would actually be more than just a name and that comes with some ships. Still at least i would certainly not want to make such modifiers increasing my payout tenfold. I could go into detail now, but that would be wasted effort. Why? Because and as already said, for such a thing it would first need a stable foundation across the board of activities and their inccome. And second...

This whole discussions is not really about credits, its about mindset. And its not even a new topic. Even in the past there were discussions like "Should i be able to earn that fuge rebuy of my ship in one hour" etc. etc. yada yada. And as much as i appreciate that idea of yours, and as much as i hope that FD might pick up on that and at least looks if something like that, just not as extreme, could be done - i don't think it will solve the "problem" or end the discussions. Why?

Stretch your arms to the side. And in both palms you have one of the groups that are currently debating what is reasonable. The mindset of those two groups and the idea of "what income is reasonable" is just too different imho to ever be put to one common ground. The area where one group would start think "Now this is reasonable", is already far beyond good end evil for the other one. And nice versa. Maybe i am wrong there, but that was always my impression so far.

 

[oscarolim]

And what will happen to the current millionaire accounts? Server wipe? Don't think so.

 

[CMDR Beltane]

And what will happen to the current millionaire accounts? Server wipe? Don't think so.

Thats just something i have come to accept, wether i like it or not as FD seems to be fine with it. If FD would'nt be "fine" with that they wouldn't have left it at just fixing stuff to prevent undesired income further down the road. I mean, i had some longer breaks, but from what i know nothing ever happened? Therefore, exploiting will remain a popular sport whenever the chance occurs.

 

[jasonbirder]

This game does not scale well its payouts for the vets.
it always feels so immersion breaking when you are a
Deadly pilot/Elite explorer/Broker trader and a Imperial Duke and yet they treat you like garbage and all those rank grinds dont matter one bit. Something is missing.

Why WOULD the Game Scale payouts towards your rank/the ship you're flying?
Surely you get paid for WHAT you're doing...deliver this/ferry these passengers/kill those ships...why would the reward be greater for a Master Pilot vs a Competent one? Why would payout be higher if you CHOOSE to Fly a cutter instead of a type 7 (extrapolate across different ships/mission types as you see fit) it makes NO sense...

 

[John Xenir]

Because i am one of those "evil" oldschoolers who like that things take its time. Thats what i bought when this game was released, thats what i expected from what i have heared, read and seen before i bought it.
To me, nothing needs to be changed but a bit of balancing out all professions so each and every one of them is something worthwile.
(...)

Fantastic - don't rep Federation/Empire and you're golden while those who want to reap the benefits, are all free to do so. Win-win.
Although I can seethe problem of someone not wanting to increase reputation and being incapable of doing so, due to minor factions being somewhat tied to the leading factions.

(...)
This whole discussions is not really about credits, its about mindset. And its not even a new topic. Even in the past there were discussions like "Should i be able to earn that fuge rebuy of my ship in one hour" etc. etc. yada yada. And as much as i appreciate that idea of yours, and as much as i hope that FD might pick up on that and at least looks if something like that, just not as extreme, could be done - i don't think it will solve the "problem" or end the discussions. Why?
(...)

Nope, as the opening post clearly shows by means of picture-heavy spreadsheet data, this discussion is about credits.
There are plenty other threads that touch on mindset - may I please ask we leave this pile of stink out of this thread so that for once we can focus on maths behind proposed solutions, instead of ideological war this will inevitably end in?

I appreciate your input, don't get me wrong in that regards. But I also think there just doesn't exist one arbitrary value that can make everyone happy, as you yourself correctly pointed out.
A line will have to be drawn somewhere and it'll never please everyone equally so let't not focus on that arbitrary value for the two following reasons:
1) Frontier - if this idea appears worth implementing - will decide what the value is, so debating what it is or should be is futile;
2) There will always be someone not happy and unless someone finally draws the line somewhere, battles will range on with one side trying to prove their point over the other, and vice versa, once again leading nowhere.

Let's discuss mechanics of proposed solutions, leaving "values" and "mindsets" to those who will ultimately be shaping it - Frontier.
Deal?

Why WOULD the Game Scale payouts towards your rank/the ship you're flying?

Surely you get paid for WHAT you're doing...deliver this/ferry these passengers/kill those ships...why would the reward be greater for a Master Pilot vs a Competent one? Why would payout be higher if you CHOOSE to Fly a cutter instead of a type 7 (extrapolate across different ships/mission types as you see fit) it makes NO sense...

I'm pretty sure he's talking about scaling according to rank, not ship you're flying.
Yes, ships come with ranks, who cares. You can be Elite in trading and still fly Type 6, while at the same time missions scale to your rank.

I find it refreshing that the smaller ships can earn just as much per mission as big ships, if they have sufficient cargo hold to fulfill mission's requirements.
If that doesn't stop Big3 power creep, I don't know what does.

OP: I like your idea a lot and I fully support it. It's about time those Federation/Empire ranks did something more than being ship-locking content-gates that people drop and forget as soon as their desired ship is unlocked.

 

[CMDR Beltane]

Let's discuss mechanics of proposed solutions, leaving "values" and "mindsets" to those who will ultimately be shaping it - Frontier.
Deal?

Pretty much the only thing we can agree on, therefore i won't even comment on the rest. Well, one thing maybe - but i will leave it at that afterwards as those discussion are indeed futile as can be seen, so lets save ourselves the breath. Imho you are wrong at thinking its not an ideological debate, because it is. But yea, i am fine to agree to disagree with you in that regard.

 

[lmhansen]

So the price of me shipping a package with postal service should depend on the driver's seniority rank?

 

[John Xenir]

It already does, though depends on your friendliness with a faction issuing the job.
I can't see much difference between being dependent on one number vs some other number .

Pretty much the only thing we can agree on, therefore i won't even comment on the rest. Well, one thing maybe - but i will leave it at that afterwards as those discussion are indeed futile as can be seen, so lets save ourselves the breath. Imho you are wrong at thinking its not an ideological debate, because it is. But yea, i am fine to agree to disagree with you in that regard.

I agree ultimately it is ideological, but this thread - as opposed to all the others - tries to focus on the system-side of solution instead, and I can't commend OP for that enough. For that reason alone, I think it deserves a chance of civilized discussion and maybe, just maybe it bears any fruit, unlike the other threads.

 

[CMDR Beltane]

It already does, though depends on your friendliness with a faction issuing the job.
I can't see much difference between being dependent on one number vs some other number .



I agree ultimately it is ideological, but this thread - as opposed to all the others - tries to focus on the system-side of solution instead, and I can't commend OP for that enough. For that reason alone, I think it deserves a chance of civilized discussion and maybe, just maybe it bears any fruit, unlike the other threads.

I never said the OPs work is bull, quite the contrary. All i said is, the parties that argue about what is reasonable are, imho, when it comes to that question what is reasonable, far too different. So even with such a system that gives you something for ranks or whatnot, at least for me its rather unlikely that even a broad majority would be able to reach consensus. One unified community is always better than a devided one, but i don't see that happen when it comes to this point. But yea, thats just me

 

[Stealthie]

Is there a tl;dr version that runs to 3 sentences or less?

 

[sollisb]

You're somewhat getting there; But it's way too simplistic. You're confining your scalability tto rank and leaving out the most important things.

Take a data courier mission.

Is ship type important?
Is the mission dangerous? -> How much so? -> How dangerous are the expected enemies?
What the time investment?
What type of mission is it?
Is there a change of being wanted doing this mission?
And a whole lot more..

Each of those are given a weighting factor and when you add the lot up, you then use a curve vs the (player, rank, faction standing, etc etc) to derive a given reward.

 

[John Xenir]

Isn't all that supposed to happen at the stage where mission's basic payout is being randomly generated?
So that then the increase factors can be applied to it based on rank?

 

[zombieapocalypse]

I love spreadsheets

 

[Genxav]

Because i am one of those "evil" oldschoolers who like that things take its time. Thats what i bought when this game was released, thats what i expected from what i have heared, read and seen before i bought it.
To me, nothing needs to be changed but a bit of balancing out all professions so each and every one of them is something worthwile.

Nevertheless, i do appreciate your effort to seek some common ground and the idea that Ranks would actually be more than just a name and that comes with some ships. Still at least i would certainly not want to make such modifiers increasing my payout tenfold. I could go into detail now, but that would be wasted effort. Why? Because and as already said, for such a thing it would first need a stable foundation across the board of activities and their inccome. And second...

This whole discussions is not really about credits, its about mindset. And its not even a new topic. Even in the past there were discussions like "Should i be able to earn that fuge rebuy of my ship in one hour" etc. etc. yada yada. And as much as i appreciate that idea of yours, and as much as i hope that FD might pick up on that and at least looks if something like that, just not as extreme, could be done - i don't think it will solve the "problem" or end the discussions. Why?

Stretch your arms to the side. And in both palms you have one of the groups that are currently debating what is reasonable. The mindset of those two groups and the idea of "what income is reasonable" is just too different imho to ever be put to one common ground. The area where one group would start think "Now this is reasonable", is already far beyond good end evil for the other one. And nice versa. Maybe i am wrong there, but that was always my impression so far.

The post is about credits, mindset and all is not in this discussion. I know what you mean but i'm not alone with the idea that many things in elite are meaningless, one of them being the ranks. Yeah sure, the multipliers could be lower, but my example is just that a hypothetical example, on and idea. Fdev would need to work on balancing the game out, and in the end the whole discussion is about rewarding players for their time in a meaningful way, one of those rewards is adding something to the ranks you get. it gives them something else other than being a nice progress bar with a badge.

And what will happen to the current millionaire accounts? Server wipe? Don't think so.

nothing will happen, what kind of question is that?

 

[Genxav]

Why WOULD the Game Scale payouts towards your rank/the ship you're flying?
Surely you get paid for WHAT you're doing...deliver this/ferry these passengers/kill those ships...why would the reward be greater for a Master Pilot vs a Competent one? Why would payout be higher if you CHOOSE to Fly a cutter instead of a type 7 (extrapolate across different ships/mission types as you see fit) it makes NO sense...

Firstly the game would Scale your pay accourding to you Pilots Federation Ranks and Power (Empire/Federation) Ranks NOT the kind of ship you are driving.

Secondly it would scale because its a game, and because with ranks giving extra bonuses, they become meaningful. Achieving Tripple elite takes time, for that time you would have earner the right to earn more credits.

Does not matte if you fly a cutter or a sidey.

So the price of me shipping a package with postal service should depend on the driver's seniority rank?

if its a game then yes

 

[CMDR Beltane]

The post is about credits, mindset and all is not in this discussion. I know what you mean but i'm not alone with the idea that many things in elite are meaningless, one of them being the ranks. Yeah sure, the multipliers could be lower, but my example is just that a hypothetical example, on and idea. Fdev would need to work on balancing the game out, and in the end the whole discussion is about rewarding players for their time in a meaningful way, one of those rewards is adding something to the ranks you get. it gives them something else other than being a nice progress bar with a badge.



nothing will happen, what kind of question is that?

Yours is not - sorry if i made that point not clear enough. As said, i appreciate your approach and agree that it would be nice if ranks would give something more than the status quo offers. I just don't think that something like that will settle the different ideas about what income is reasonable, as the mindsets behind the reasoning on both ends are vastly different. Then again, i don't know if course if this idea of yours had this intend to begin with. Hopefully that clarifies my previous posts.