Starting To Seriously Lose Faith

I have faith that it can be done, the question is will they?

If Frontier implemented all of the exploration ideas in my suggestion thread linked in my signature then I’d be a very happy explorer. I’m expecting far less than that, and some part of me expects them to fumble terribly with exploration. But I’m hopeful that we’ve waited four years for something well designed with some heavy effort behind it. If it goes the other way well then I’ll at least know that it’s time to stop waiting and give up all hope for the future of exploration.

The Q4 update will be a very interesting moment in Elite history nonetheless.

Indeed. Either it will show that ED got the message and that all the stuff in the pipeline is the right one. Or it won't and it will be time for me to close that gaming chapter.

But the guardian mission fiasco makes me think that they are mostly clueless and does not fill me with a lot of faith.
 
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Indeed. Either it will show that ED got the message and that all the stuff in the pipeline is the right one. Or it won't and it will be time for me to close that gaming chapter.

But the guardian mission fiasco makes me think that they are mostly clueless and does not fill me with a lot of faith.

It is concerning, isn't it? For the most part I love what they've done with the Guardians, except for the game play design which goes along with them:

- Graphic design for Guardian bases = awesome!
- Sound design for Guradian bases = superb!
- Guardian Sentinels = great job!
- Tech Broker design for Guardian bases = overly grindy failure.

So close......
 
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- Graphic design for Guardian bases = awesome!
- Sound design for Guradian bases = superb!
- Guardian Sentinels = great job!
- Ram Tah mission design for Guardian bases = overly grindy failure.

So close......

Hmmm...I suspect there might be a pattern to these things.

But what could it be?
 
You were able to execute a couple of mining missions in sequence just by "using" the "selectable mission reward" as the fulfillment of the next mission. In my example you just need to bring the 20 Platinum, and with the 30 Gold they put into your ship you were able to take the "bring gold" mission and instantly complete it. Sorry, my english is not made for complicated stuff :)

Basically its in the same category as when you are able to buy stuff from the commodity market just to fulfill the mission (of course without having to leave the station).

Got it?

And that´s what I think is a consequence of limited knowledge of the game, not of developer or designer skills.

Ah, I see. Yes, I did know about that. I certainly wouldn't use that oversight as an excuse to throw the baby out with the wash water; being given the choice to choose between three different rewards is the best thing that's happened to the mission board since I started playing the game.
 
You were able to execute a couple of mining missions in sequence just by "using" the "selectable mission reward" as the fulfillment of the next mission. In my example you just need to bring the 20 Platinum, and with the 30 Gold they put into your ship you were able to take the "bring gold" mission and instantly complete it. Sorry, my english is not made for complicated stuff :)

Basically its in the same category as when you are able to buy stuff from the commodity market just to fulfill the mission (of course without having to leave the station).

Got it?

And that´s what I think is a consequence of limited knowledge of the game, not of developer or designer skills.

There were also missions such as “industry needs ~20 osmium” and one of the reward options could be a million or so credits and +30 tons of osmium.
 
Quite genuinely what do you think it needs for you to be tempted back (I've not gone back through your posts to check, sorry, I'm being lazy)?

About the only thing I can see that will help is to make things much more skill based in arenas beyond combat. How they can do that in an approachable way though is tricky to see though and how they can do that to existing systems without annoying everyone is even more tricky. They can certainly add more QoL things but for long term players deficiencies in the interface or access to information is probably more of an annoyance (maybe a significant one but still) rather than game break.. If you make things difficult to do well will people just be put off? Can they make things easy to do but more profitable to do well? How does that interact with non-combat? Make scanning things tougher in exploration in some way? Or add extra layers of scanning that require practice to get right? Maybe... For trading? The frustration in the community at obscuring trade data at all seems to preclude the idea of making this 'skill based' in the sense of finding out where to buy and sell things so how do you do it? Add acceleration limits for precious cargos or something? Could add specialised holds for bulk liquids or something but that isn't skill, just equipment and expense.

Not having a go at all, just brain storming a bit and curious what you think!

First a previous post of mine about the contiunued lack of core investment - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...is-now-coming-back-to-bite-ED-in-the-boosters!

Improvements? If we just consider mining? We must (IMHO) get some sort of stateful resources in Q4's mining improvements - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...eful-resource-hot-spots?p=6054187#post6054187

More generally?

Here's a post I made about a year ago asked the same sort of question (no.1 is the mining suggestion above):-

  1. More involved and rewarding mining? Imagine some locations/spots that are stateful, which once discovered (eg: a hot spot of palladium) heavily skew your odds of finding it, but as you do, it reduced down until gone forever. Image how this might reward mining and exploration. Potentially even with some emergent gameplay. eg: Give the location to the Rock Rats for commission.
  2. More involved and rewarding piracy? I'll just post my email to some friends here when I found out Asteroid bases were in the game:-
    These are the hub of all the new piracy mechanics where you can build up a piracy reputation and inturn gain access to these hidden nefarious location. You can then obtain new challenging piracy based missions and access to more rewarding black markets etc.

    Oh! I misread the release notes... They're just like normal stations..
  3. NPC Wingmen that you can hire or can be assigned in the appropriate missions, and you can give them simple tactical instructions. Attack this. Defend that. Stay here.
  4. Imagine stateful NPCs so you can build up a reputation with them. NPCs who slowly learn to trust you and give you more and more involved or important missions.
  5. More involved missions and combat scenarios. Imagine convoy escort missions from Nav Beacon A to B. Imagine protecting a ship that's being repaired by other ships shuttling supplies in - See (3) and (4)
  6. Full blown blockade mechanics where rarely a station can enter full blockade so you exit SC a long way out. It's prices will of course be heavily effected. But do you risk running the blockade? What if there's mission to evacuate civilians? What if you have a mission to enforce the blockade? See (3).
  7. Imagine Powerplay utilising the aforementioned more interesting combat scenarios for its task? See (5)
  8. Imagine Powerplay utilising the aforementioned blockade mechanic for outcomes? See (6)
  9. Imagine a form of CQC being integrated into the core game so you can undertake fighter based missions/tours of duty. For example based from capital ship or platforms. See (3) and (5) and (6)
  10. Imagine Thargoids attacking and the game utilising (3) and (5) and (6) and (9).
  11. More involved and rewarding exploration? Imagine far far more visual and dynamic content to witness (aurora borealis, electrical storms, kilometer high geysers, common envelopes for binary/trinary stars and blackholes, comets etc). Imagine having drones you can send out in a system to discover and scan bodies and return video close ups etc.
  12. Imagine PvP being improved? Image a solid Crime and Punishment (karma) system being employed and the game actually orchestrating meaningful PvP? Imagine interesting scenarios to push CMDRs against each other via missions, Powerplay tasks or even CGs. Imagine the kind of scenarios in (5) with opposing CMDRs (and or NPCs)? Imagine PvP in the game even just via (9)?

...shall we carry on?


Strangely ED wasn't released with fully formed deep and interesting gameplay. Instead a lot of it is simplistic and almost placeholder in nature. Which is fine as it was always a work in progress. The problem is, unfortunately over the past 2+ years most of it has remained as such. The question is will 2.4-->3 see FD finally start deepening and improving core gameplay depth. If they don't, I think that's going to make it clear what depth FD envisage ED to offer... and that won't be enough depth to entice me back :(


^ That was a year ago, and the biggest feature release in that time? Multicrew? And here we are finally dealing with a Thargoid invasion, and effecting its outcome by carrying X to Y to repair stations damaged by invisible fleets of Thargoids on a Thursay morning. And I haven't come back to the game because?
 
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I don't think FD can make the new exploration gameplay fun and complex, 4 years of development is enough proof.

Also don't forget they are making a game for consoles so the gameplay will stay very limited and simplistic.
Its sad, I know.

I don't know... Imagine if planet surfaces were broken up into 20-30 sectors/areas. When you detail surface scan only those facing you are scanned. You can only see the surface of sectors scanned by you (or other CMDRs). Each sector first scanned gives you a CR reward. Possibly the same goes for rings too, although far easier to scan all sectors in one go (eg: directly from above/below).

For any sector of a surface/ring you can see a procedural distribution map of material/elements there (eg: Where there's more/less arsenic across the surface. Where there's more/less palladium in rings. ie: The RND dice are skewed slight up/down in favour of different materials etc). Think of this like a heat map.

Similar heat maps could be used to help locate other features, such as geysers maybe etc?

C7T6koq.gif


Consider being able to fit exploration drones to your ship. Consider entering a system and using an orrery map to determine where best to send your 2-3 drones to scan (they would go into orbit and scan the entire planet they're assigned to), and where you want to go in person. Consider getting live video feedback from any of your drone to get a better look at planet surfaces. You'd use the orrery map to determine where in the system to send you drones to meet up with them before leaving. Consider being able to give your drones a series of targets to scan in a system. This would mean at least you have some planning and micro-management to juggle while exploring.

Consider also exploration feeding into mining as suggested here (ie: exploration can mean finding rich stateful resources), and it even leading into a purpose for Squadron carriers? - https://goo.gl/4M9tsS


But ultimately, I see the major exploration improvements simply coming from more visual depth - eg: aurora borealis, electrical storms, kilometer high geysers, common envelopes for binary/trinary stars and blackholes, comets etc. And ideally the Q4 payable DLC being atmosperic landings.


note: With the above proposal any existing planets already detail surface scanned would by default have all their sectors scanned.
 
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As a 53 year old housewife, I have learned to be grateful for what I've got, and that means in gaming as well. Some thoughts:

1. The grind is awful but the Materials Traders have lessened the agony.

2. Procedural Generation is not that amenable to bespoke or hand made game mechanics. There is a great article on this here. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...9577&elqaid=83757&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=30024. Space Legs is way off in the future. The design hurdles are immense.

3. Despite the challenges of reconciling Procedural Generation with bespoke code, some of the choices that Fdev have made are sheer repetitive gameplay and padding and either show some ignorance or some insensitivity to the intellect of its more intelligent gamers. Would Mr. Braben do the same things 8 times to unlock a Guardian weapon? I doubt he would even do it twice, certainly not three times. FDev needs to design games they themselves would play. Trying to second guess what your audience may want is a guaranteed failure for a truly creative endeavor. Did Beethoven compose for the typical amateur german musician of the 19th century? Hell f.....g no. Please FDev, realize that many of your devotees are as intelligent as you are. I suspect that within FDev itself, there are little wars going on over these sorts of issues right now. I just hope the managers are as open minded, receptive and tolerant as I envision them to be.

4. I love this game and realize that the game is still evolving.

5. Yes, I don't play as often either.

o7
 
Pity the materials traders won't trade for my fish sandwich.

Ah, well. At least a great number of posters have joined Beige Squadron today. :)
 

sollisb

Banned
As a 53 year old housewife, I have learned to be grateful for what I've got, and that means in gaming as well. Some thoughts:

1. The grind is awful but the Materials Traders have lessened the agony.

2. Procedural Generation is not that amenable to bespoke or hand made game mechanics. There is a great article on this here. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...9577&elqaid=83757&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=30024. Space Legs is way off in the future. The design hurdles are immense.

3. Despite the challenges of reconciling Procedural Generation with bespoke code, some of the choices that Fdev have made are sheer repetitive gameplay and padding and either show some ignorance or some insensitivity to the intellect of its more intelligent gamers. Would Mr. Braben do the same things 8 times to unlock a Guardian weapon? I doubt he would even do it twice, certainly not three times. FDev needs to design games they themselves would play. Trying to second guess what your audience may want is a guaranteed failure for a truly creative endeavor. Did Beethoven compose for the typical amateur german musician of the 19th century? Hell f.....g no. Please FDev, realize that many of your devotees are as intelligent as you are. I suspect that within FDev itself, there are little wars going on over these sorts of issues right now. I just hope the managers are as open minded, receptive and tolerant as I envision them to be.

4. I love this game and realize that the game is still evolving.

5. Yes, I don't play as often either.

o7


There's a really old saying; Give the Customer what the Customer wants; Not what you Think they want... FDev fail miserably, and what they do give, is a bug fest. I have serious doubts at this stage if they actually have the ability to produce. I seriously believe they'll keep labouring us with the same garbage mechanics and bugs like they have to date. Thank God for their Graphics department, they hold the entire thing together.
 
Your talk of "busy work" reminds me of when I basically gave up the game... I was playing, and blam! I quite literally realised the only reason I was still playing the game was to improve my position for "when the game improved". Release after release, (IMHO) it didn't seem to be improving, but I was still hoping/expecting it to at some point... Well, even a year+ later, I'm still waiting...
It happened to me last year. But I came back a couple of weeks later. It's like an addiction. :D

I'm hoping Q4 of this year finally shows a true change in ethos for FD. ie: A raising of the gameplay bar...
I sure hope so. I'm just afraid there will be a new battle ship, combat scenarios with more thargoids, squadrons to fight each other, more weapons (like 10 of them), more materials and grinding and engineering to support combat, and ... oh, wait, nicer planets for explorers to land on and thargoids at Beagle's Point. Essentially, explorations is considered, jump-honk-look, repeat, and nothing else. Mining, will be upgraded with more mining lasers to use to shoot thargoids on the asteroids. Maybe we'll even get atmosphere with thargoids to shoot? Who knows. One thing for sure, exploration will be expanded with more combat. Do I sound like a broken record? Probably because I think ED is a bit broken record with 99.9% centered around "yet another weapon and grinding for those weapons to shoot things) updates.

Still... it's the best game out there. :D

ps: I still have trouble believing there's 100+ people working on this thing.
I think they need some visionaries that can see beyond pew-pew.
 
More generally?

Here's a post I made about a year ago asked the same sort of question (no.1 is the mining suggestion above):-
I know you'll be back when mining is upgraded with thargoid attacks in the rings. You just need to grind for mats to engineer and buy more weapons. It'll be a great upgrade for mining. ;)
 
I want my chrome, and gold Cobra 4 paintjobs, as well as the 32 part ship kit. :)
And more weapons so we can do more mining, trading, and exploring.

--edit

Here's a new weapon I've been thinking about. A rock-thrower. Why? Because the shield right now protects against lasers and normal projectiles, but not against rocks (SRVs get damage from regular rocks with shield on, but withstand missiles), so if there was a rock thrower weapon, that would be quite effective to bypass the shield.
 
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I do sometimes think that it would benefit the game if they gave all designers and developers a month off just to play the game from scratch with a new personal account. So much of this seems just based on not understanding what the game is like when actually played, rather than send some magic dev commands and have something set up for them.

The disconnect sometimes between FD and the community is enormous that statements like "narrative", "personal story", "we want to respect your time" or "this isn't, in my opinion, adding to grind" become instant memes...


Case in point... That's just one I did... But you can find tons of those. "working on my narrative" is now the new name for Engineering in my group.

Beyond_Engineering_zpszel0aoro.png
 
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