Starting To Seriously Lose Faith

[-VR- Max Factor]

I think Engineers broke the game beyond fixing. Now FDev are in a corner where they have to make a game that caters for players without modded ships and those with modded ships and make an AI that dances to that tune - never going to happen. The AI will remain uber weak and easy and encounters will remain "USS's" that you have to enter.

I don't think it's broken, but they went the wrong way with it. It should have been sidegrades with maybe some very minor upgrade, not the uber weapons, shields and armour we get now. AI is the main issue here. They are stuck. If they add powerfull upgrades it forces people into doing engineers, if they don't then the AI is too easy for people that have done engineers. It's a mess, but not completely broken.

All Engineers provided was a timesink to make your current weapons more powerful. Big deal. There was nothing wrong with A-rated equipment and the game certainly didn't need 9 months of dev time to give us something we already had.

All games that have a crafting system are time sinks, as long as that time sink is fun is the question. As I don't grind for materials much if at all, it is entirely in my own hands how enjoyable it is.

I do agree about the A-Grade. That should have been kept. There was a difference between A, B, C, D and E grade items. Now they have largely become irrelevant.

Put it this way, take away Engineers and you make the game better or worse? Does fighting the AI become better or worse? Does PVP become better or worse?

This is a tough one. Engineers in their current and old form does make the AI worse. PvP I don't know, but I gather the raft of option open can make PvP intersting with the different types of weapons. So the current engineers is possibly a good thing.

If Engineers was done as mostly side grades instead of massive upgrades it would be fine and therefore adding to the gam with lots of different builds that are not too overpowered. What I have to do to get the upgraded modules is fine, but could do with some more variation and more gameplay that includes materials.

So it's a tough question to ask and answer properly. FDev made a mistake with the engineers, but now it's impossible for them to go back on it.

 

[Enderby]

Maybe they’ll get of it if we ask them nicely.

 

[iFred]

All Engineers provided was a timesink to make your current weapons more powerful. Big deal. There was nothing wrong with A-rated equipment and the game certainly didn't need 9 months of dev time to give us something we already had.

Exactly.

What I said. New UI for Engineers, some parameters changed in the backend. Re-introducing of colors for the planets. Text2Speech for Galnet. Guardian Site that is (still) bugged. Chieftain. Wing missions. Mission rewards.

9 months. 100 people. And still buggy.

That´s all I say.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

I think Engineers broke the game beyond fixing. Now FDev are in a corner where they have to make a game that caters for players without modded ships and those with modded ships and make an AI that dances to that tune - never going to happen. The AI will remain uber weak and easy and encounters will remain "USS's" that you have to enter.

All Engineers provided was a timesink to make your current weapons more powerful. Big deal. There was nothing wrong with A-rated equipment and the game certainly didn't need 9 months of dev time to give us something we already had.

Put it this way, take away Engineers and you make the game better or worse? Does fighting the AI become better or worse? Does PVP become better or worse?

Funny thing is, that after everybody upgraded their ship, we're basically back to square one. Everybody flies almost the same ship, maybe with exception of the experimental effects, which is the only good part about engineers.
The choice of engineering is an illusion, since for a specific type of fit (exploration, combat, ....) 90% of the players will choose the same 1-2 modifications, the rest is useless.

So after weeks of time-sink engineering we're back where we were in the beginning.

I wouldn't mind spending time to get some great sidegrades, but for everybody to just make every weapon/module stronger and end up with the same is a huge waste of time.

 

[Enderby]

Funny thing is, that after everybody upgraded their ship, we're basically back to square one. Everybody flies almost the same ship, maybe with exception of the experimental effects, which is the only good part about engineers.
The choice of engineering is an illusion, since for a specific type of fit (exploration, combat, ....) 90% of the players will choose the same 1-2 modifications, the rest is useless.

So after weeks of time-sink engineering we're back where we were in the beginning.

Ha! Yeah. It’s quite funny really. And this is the main cool new stuff...

 

[Jex =TE=]

At some point FD will have to simply stop balancing the game for the core Elite Dangerous (sorry @Mac users i know it is not fair) and those who refuse to do ANY engineering accept that they will simply not be equipped to go to the really dangerous systems in ED... because assuming FD want players to use the tools they provide they surely cant break the game for those who use those new tools by making it game breakingly easy.

now, i am not in favour myself of ships scaling with players as it again removes any point at all in getting the upgrades in the 1st place... however imo the different systems in ED can be massively expanded upon.....

ie make systems come under attack, they desperately need commodities to survive so pay really really well, BUT make them super hard to go to, so those with weak ships do not venuture unless they have strong escorts.

but this needs to be communicated in game.... noobs will be encouraged to stay in safe space untill they find their feet and get a few upgrades... imo there should be at least 10 maybe even more steps to the danger level in a system and that should be fluid based on the BGS, so "white hats" can stabilise systems and "black hats" can destabilise them.

then the mission board also needs to actually be clear on missions, elite missions should ALWAYS be rock hard taking us to level 10 systems, and harmless ones always going to level 1 or 2 etc.

the theory is not rocket science...... the practice i guess depends on how flexible the game is under the hood, going to level 10 systems should always pay well, going to level 1 or 2 systems should rarely pay well but be a predictable solid income.

i will be the 1st to put my hand up and say "I enjoy material gathering and enjoy using engineers". but i dont enjoy the fact that once i have done it i can practically leave my ship in a RES and go take a dump and come back and have a nice list of bounty voucher with my ship still in 1 piece.

You ask the impossible - just look at what you're asking and then think about the game mechancis - what Engineering? How much? What parts? What rolls? What about "blaze your own trail" - now you are forcing players to grind - it's never going to happen in reality.

How long would players get to "upgrade" all their ships? OMG could you imagine the salt? FDev have made a corner for themselves and it's getting smaller every day. There is no answer to the issue except rolling back the thing in the first place.

You simply cannot expect to force all players to upgrade their ships and even then you haven't stated by how much - A g1 roll over a G5 roll is worlds apart so you still have the issue of God ships v rubbish G1 ships. So now you still have the same problem, you just made every mod every single ship they own but now you're going to have to make them all god roll every ship to G5 or nothing changes.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I don't know about that.
Before it at least was an bit exciting grind when you've got these god rollz.

Now its just predictable boring grind.

They're both as bad as each other - the problem I see is that we've been exposed to all this blandness for so long we think a really bad system is really good because it repplaced a REALLY really bad system lol.

I think people need to step back and start thinking about all the other space games and other games they've played in the past to remember what good game design is like.

 

[Khelder]

You know what the biggest problem with The Engineers was? (IMHO, of course)

The fact that it was a headline feature!

(and, following on from that, that it has absorbed so much developer attention since)

I can't think of another game where crafting/enchanting is more than a dot point. "Oh, and you can craft stuff". Or maybe in an update, "We added a couple more things you can craft." But to make THE ENGINEERS the primary focus of an entire release?! So, of course, that became the "content" that everyone so desperately was hanging out for. And it's become such a major part of the game that it can't be rolled back.

They spent so much effort on an overly convoluted and grindy system that should have just been a standard component as much as something like trading.

I would have loved to have seen something similar to Fallout. Modules are broken down into various components that can be modified in various ways to gain some sort of benefit/change but come with downsides as well. Perhaps you can swap out the targeting computer for a turret so it has better aim but consumes more power. The modifications can be performed by you with various components that you find floating around (or purchase). You might even find whole modules floating in space after a ship is destroyed which you could pick up and use or sell. Modifications generally result in known changes (no RNG). No grinding just to make some super "Engineer" happy. Just tinkering in your garage.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I don't think it's broken, but they went the wrong way with it.

No, I'm saying it broke the game, not that it's broken in of itself - it works fine as in it does what the code makes it do but overall, for ED - it was one of the worst things to add and waste 9 months of dev time over.

The differences between a base game ship - G1 ship - G5 ship are so far apart there's no fixing it. And how on earth do you cater the AI across this chasm of difference? You can't.

 

[Khelder]

You simply cannot expect to force all players to upgrade their ships

I'd be screwed.

I think people need to step back and start thinking about all the other space games and other games they've played in the past to remember what good game design is like.

^^^

out of rep

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You know what the biggest problem with The Engineers was? (IMHO, of course)

The fact that it was a headline feature!

(and, following on from that, that it has absorbed so much developer attention since)

I can't think of another game where crafting/enchanting is more than a dot point. "Oh, and you can craft stuff". Or maybe in an update, "We added a couple more things you can craft." But to make THE ENGINEERS the primary focus of an entire release?! So, of course, that became the "content" that everyone so desperately was hanging out for. And it's become such a major part of the game that it can't be rolled back.

They spent so much effort on an overly convoluted and grindy system that should have just been a standard component as much as something like trading.

I would have loved to have seen something similar to Fallout. Modules are broken down into various components that can be modified in various ways to gain some sort of benefit/change but come with downsides as well. Perhaps you can swap out the targeting computer for a turret so it has better aim but consumes more power. The modifications can be performed by you with various components that you find floating around (or purchase). You might even find whole modules floating in space after a ship is destroyed which you could pick up and use or sell. Modifications generally result in known changes (no RNG). No grinding just to make some super "Engineer" happy. Just tinkering in your garage.

Yep and most crafted stuff was only slightly better then what you could get by playing the game with little variation.

I actually think all they needed is to have the current crop of experimental effects and the equivalent of a grade 1 in the game and that's it.

Not this Grade 1-5. Not necessary in the slightest.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

You know what the biggest problem with The Engineers was? (IMHO, of course)

You know what the biggest problem with The Engineers was? (IMHO, of course)

The fact that it was a headline feature!

I feel that headline feature of Engineers were the plethora of new Huge class weapons

 

[Jex =TE=]

Funny thing is, that after everybody upgraded their ship, we're basically back to square one. Everybody flies almost the same ship, maybe with exception of the experimental effects, which is the only good part about engineers.
The choice of engineering is an illusion, since for a specific type of fit (exploration, combat, ....) 90% of the players will choose the same 1-2 modifications, the rest is useless.

So after weeks of time-sink engineering we're back where we were in the beginning.

I wouldn't mind spending time to get some great sidegrades, but for everybody to just make every weapon/module stronger and end up with the same is a huge waste of time.

I called this before Engineers was just an idea - I said it would only end up with everyone getting the same stuff in the end and the devs have had to rework it to make players all be the same again. A-E rated stuff you bought - Eng's you grind.

With other parts of the game untouched since release, we don't need more combat stuff and I bet this isn't the last change we see to Engineer's either so expect even more time to be sunk into a failed design.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, I'm saying it broke the game, not that it's broken in of itself - it works fine as in it does what the code makes it do but overall, for ED - it was one of the worst things to add and waste 9 months of dev time over.

The differences between a base game ship - G1 ship - G5 ship are so far apart there's no fixing it. And how on earth do you cater the AI across this chasm of difference? You can't.

That's why I think NPC ships only have a maximum of grade 3 upgrades on, so its not too punishing for people without and offers a bit more for people with. Engineers really should have been open to everyone, not just horizons players. At least getting grades 1-3 in the new system is laughably easy now. Hopefully they will bundle horizons into the main game at the end of this year. Not too sure about the poor mac users though.

 

[Enderby]

You know what the biggest problem with The Engineers was? (IMHO, of course)

The fact that it was a headline feature!

(and, following on from that, that it has absorbed so much developer attention since)

I can't think of another game where crafting/enchanting is more than a dot point. "Oh, and you can craft stuff". Or maybe in an update, "We added a couple more things you can craft." But to make THE ENGINEERS the primary focus of an entire release?! So, of course, that became the "content" that everyone so desperately was hanging out for. And it's become such a major part of the game that it can't be rolled back.

They spent so much effort on an overly convoluted and grindy system that should have just been a standard component as much as something like trading.

I would have loved to have seen something similar to Fallout. Modules are broken down into various components that can be modified in various ways to gain some sort of benefit/change but come with downsides as well. Perhaps you can swap out the targeting computer for a turret so it has better aim but consumes more power. The modifications can be performed by you with various components that you find floating around (or purchase). You might even find whole modules floating in space after a ship is destroyed which you could pick up and use or sell. Modifications generally result in known changes (no RNG). No grinding just to make some super "Engineer" happy. Just tinkering in your garage.

Absolutely!!! If it was a side-activity, fair enough. But to have it as the main ‘thing’ is just so lame.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You ask the impossible - just look at what you're asking and then think about the game mechancis - what Engineering? How much? What parts? What rolls? What about "blaze your own trail" - now you are forcing players to grind - it's never going to happen in reality.

How long would players get to "upgrade" all their ships? OMG could you imagine the salt? FDev have made a corner for themselves and it's getting smaller every day. There is no answer to the issue except rolling back the thing in the first place.

You simply cannot expect to force all players to upgrade their ships and even then you haven't stated by how much - A g1 roll over a G5 roll is worlds apart so you still have the issue of God ships v rubbish G1 ships. So now you still have the same problem, you just made every mod every single ship they own but now you're going to have to make them all god roll every ship to G5 or nothing changes.

my point is you balance the game and players make their OWN choice..... ie if each system had a danger warning of 1 - 10 i could filter for risk level 5 or below and stick with those... OR i could chance it for more money and go harder. if i have had a few beers and want to chill out i filter to level 1 or 2.

i am still "blazing my own trail" (honestly i hate that term, ED may be a sort of sand box but ultimately it is a game and games do have rules and for good reason) but i am managing my own risk.

I dont disagree that FD went WAAAAAAY overboard on the power creep tho..... an extra 2% here and a little 3% there would be plenty imo... not to mention there should be LOTS of little pots to fill to improve your ship not 1 big massive pot imo. (so engineers, combined with equipment condition combined with ships crew combined with ... etc etc each thing only adding a tiny boost but all working together to give a bigger = but still less than G5 god rolled = improvement.... imo.

I also think weapons should wear out if we are running out of spec and eventually have to be scrapped...

my issue isnt with the grind you see.... I respect not all agree

 

[Jex =TE=]

+ rep to all on this page LOL - I ran out

Agree with Max about the levels - why 5? And why so obviously OP? Because they literally can't think of gameplay and had to add in something that they knew would take everyone ages and be done in the most boring way imaginable - does anybody actually like collecting materials and having to fly to a place to do a roll and see what happens? The most mundane of tasks required to be completed so you can what? Shoot things quicker? Die even slow than you already could? The FSD boost I think everyone went for but only because space travel is a grind as well.

Edit - ok the LAST page lol

 

[4gui4]

me me me meme meme meme me me me ([FONT=&quot] international Morse code distress signal )[/FONT][alien]

 

[Jex =TE=]

my point is you balance the game and players make their OWN choice..... ie if each system had a danger warning of 1 - 10 i could filter for risk level 5 or below and stick with those... OR i could chance it for more money and go harder. if i have had a few beers and want to chill out i filter to level 1 or 2.

i am still "blazing my own trail" (honestly i hate that term, ED may be a sort of sand box but ultimately it is a game and games do have rules and for good reason) but i am managing my own risk.

I've said similar in the past, systems need to be more dangerous and more rewarding or you can go to easy systems. I don't think that's possible with the way they designed the PG and RNG though.

However, the new OP ships would breeze through a level 10 danger ssytem. and I non modded ship would get crushed. Not only that, what about Thargoids, at what level do you set the standard for G rolls? It all becomes very complicated when you sit down and think about it because all these toher issues pop up and there's not really a way around them that FDev can conceivably code in - that part is important - we can fantasise but we really need to talk about what can realistically be done.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

That's why I think NPC ships only have a maximum of grade 3 upgrades on, so its not too punishing for people without and offers a bit more for people with. Engineers really should have been open to everyone, not just horizons players. At least getting grades 1-3 in the new system is laughably easy now. Hopefully they will bundle horizons into the main game at the end of this year. Not too sure about the poor mac users though.

Grade 1-3 the way they are would have been fine. Then they could have used all the rarer materials for experimental effects. For a good experimental I wouldn't mind going out of my way.