This * 10000
Wing mission balance pass
- Thread starter Bryski
- Start date
In defence of the devs, I think one of the reasons they were asking for feedback here is not that they hadn't thought of loading the game up and having a look themselves (although that could help for sure) but I suspect under the hood Frontier have made the mission generation system hopelessly over complex and opaque even the devs don't know what tweaks they make might do in all cases - in my head it is probably affected by and not limited to:
- rep with faction
- rank (combat, explo, trade)
- status of faction
- government type of faction
- status of system
- security of system
- distance of station to star
- Type of station (normal, hi tech, industry etc)
- distance to mission target (from destination star)
- RNG because you cant have something in Elite without RNGesus having a holy hand.
Given that, make a tweak here and it might work as intended for 2% of cases and hooboy something went weird over there where all those variables are different. Not saying it's insurmountable but it's where I suspect alot of difficulties lie. It also has the likely unintended (or not) side effect of making it basically impossible to determine where you should be to get the missions you want - eg: if you want low volume solo missions for Bio Conductors then to get good odds of them appearing you need to be in this rank bracket at an boom system of democracy Gov type at a hi tech station within 10ly of an agri station in such and such a state... Guessing of course but wouldn't be surprised and basically makes it useless to do anything else but randomly float about stations hoping to get lucky or check the boards/reddit to see if anyone is reporting somewhere to go to which seems to spawn the missions you want...
In short the entire mission system in total I think needs to be binned and a wholesale rethink from the ground up with focused player feedback is required. For such a core part of the game, and something that's been a bit lame since beta, a proper overhaul is way way way overdue. My 2 credits there anyway.
Anyways, I logged in to check mission board - nope nothing useful in my MEF hunt. Board flipped a few times, nope still nothing and you're dreaming if you think I'm going to ferry 7K goods to get 5 MEFs. Logged out to desktop and had a glass of wine. Wise decision I think. I'll check in occasionally I think but basically as a result of the state of the mission boards currently they've also killed engineers for me too so will probs check back in a month or so and see if this has become usable again.
Fly safe or not as you wish Commanders!
- rep with faction
- rank (combat, explo, trade)
- status of faction
- government type of faction
- status of system
- security of system
- distance of station to star
- Type of station (normal, hi tech, industry etc)
- distance to mission target (from destination star)
- RNG because you cant have something in Elite without RNGesus having a holy hand.
Given that, make a tweak here and it might work as intended for 2% of cases and hooboy something went weird over there where all those variables are different. Not saying it's insurmountable but it's where I suspect alot of difficulties lie. It also has the likely unintended (or not) side effect of making it basically impossible to determine where you should be to get the missions you want - eg: if you want low volume solo missions for Bio Conductors then to get good odds of them appearing you need to be in this rank bracket at an boom system of democracy Gov type at a hi tech station within 10ly of an agri station in such and such a state... Guessing of course but wouldn't be surprised and basically makes it useless to do anything else but randomly float about stations hoping to get lucky or check the boards/reddit to see if anyone is reporting somewhere to go to which seems to spawn the missions you want...
In short the entire mission system in total I think needs to be binned and a wholesale rethink from the ground up with focused player feedback is required. For such a core part of the game, and something that's been a bit lame since beta, a proper overhaul is way way way overdue. My 2 credits there anyway.
Anyways, I logged in to check mission board - nope nothing useful in my MEF hunt. Board flipped a few times, nope still nothing and you're dreaming if you think I'm going to ferry 7K goods to get 5 MEFs. Logged out to desktop and had a glass of wine. Wise decision I think. I'll check in occasionally I think but basically as a result of the state of the mission boards currently they've also killed engineers for me too so will probs check back in a month or so and see if this has become usable again.
Fly safe or not as you wish Commanders!
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At this point, I really don't care if there is any roleplaying, if the payments are unfair because you could get a random party involved, or whatever. For the FIRST time, it was profitable for traders to band TOGETHER. Period.
And due to the whiners, FD just absolutely CRATERED it.
And due to the whiners, FD just absolutely CRATERED it.
If that was your intent...to just hand out free money...then I am glad they did and I hope it goes further. Not whining, just calling it out for what it was - A CHEAT.
At least I included a suggestion that would have resolved the situation in an equitable fashion FOR EVERYONE.
As evidenced by your postings here, you cannot claim the same.
Yes this is quite possible. They creeted complex system where is ton of variables which can generate lot of corner cases where it hopelessly broke down. They should ban rand() function altogether and for example for delivery mission just use simple formula reward = ton_amout * rank * jump_distance * log(cruise_distance) * N
That way it would generate predictable mission reward and IMHO it would greatly reduce or even eliminated board flipping as you would know what to expect. They would just need tweak that N value.
You mean, like bounties in wing... right ?
Do we need to nerf those too ?
These missions were fine, paying not too much and not too little. It made trading in wing fun and not the usual "ohhh, you playing coop ? Let's cut your profits down for daring to do it."
Well. It lasted a few days. RIP wing cargo missions.
Only positive point is that we still have the wing assassination missions, which are really good fun.
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No,what you suggested was a solution that suits you.
You want a 4X payment for doing a wing mission solo. Now thats cheating...
Adam please look over this .
No,what you suggested was a solution that suits you.
You want a 4X payment for doing a wing mission solo. Now thats cheating...
I want the payment posted for mission to be the Total Paid. Not, let me go scream "FREE MONEY" to 3 noobwinders and they magically get millions for nothing more than joining another playwer's Wing - at NO EXPENSE to the Experienced player.
If I put in 100% of the effort then it is perfectly within my rights to get ALL of the money paid to the "wing", but as I have stated several times I feel that if I am accepting a mission then I get to choose my risk/reward level = 4000t Biowaste, I will haul it myself; 4000t Palladium, I am gonna hire out protection. But if I am going to bring anyone else along, then I get to choose whom to bring and I should be SHARING the compensation appropriately - not GIFTING them the result of some Made-Up Magical Money Multiplier that has nothing to do with Effort or Risk/Reward and everything to do with whoever happens to be fluffilng you when you hit Accept on the Mission Board.
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Thargoid combat payout needs a buff:
Killed four thargoids yesterday, two solo. Just enough for the one rebuy
15-25 minute Thargoid battle nets you 2 million but any ship capable of taking one out solo has a rebuy at least 2-3x that.
Why can’t I make a living of the most fun activities in the game for me: combat.
Between repairs and fighting to your last breath, combat is an exercise in watching your bank account dwindle.
Killed four thargoids yesterday, two solo. Just enough for the one rebuy
15-25 minute Thargoid battle nets you 2 million but any ship capable of taking one out solo has a rebuy at least 2-3x that.
Why can’t I make a living of the most fun activities in the game for me: combat.
Between repairs and fighting to your last breath, combat is an exercise in watching your bank account dwindle.
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My last word on the mater: it's conceptually a simple fix.
TLDR; Dear FDev, please make payments for hauling cargo make sense, give us enough missions to fill our big ships without endlessly board switching, and make the incentive for doing wing missions a bonus paid if you deliver the goods faster than possible in a single ship by using a wing of multiple ships.
I'm asking sincerely FDev: since you put big ships in the game, please also put in enough missions to fill them.
And whether it's a wing mission or not, please make the price to haul a particular product per ton make sense based on the local situation, unlike the seemingly random prices shown in the screen shots in this thread.
Maybe it is already, and I'm just missing something? If that is the case please share how I'm missing the boat here.
While we're at it, you could also make trading a profitable alternative to running missions.
In my limited experience, the best twenty minute trade route I can find for my large ships still pays about one quarter of what I can make in twenty minutes running transport missions in my Python :-(
Conclusion: Trading comodities does not compete with missions for making credits.
I'd also suggest that you just don't pay higher rank and higher rep cmdr's more per ton to haul the same stuff as low ranked players. To me this makes no sense but that's how it is.
Instead, why not give commanders with lower rank and rep missions that carry less valuable cargo, and therefore pay them less per ton to deliver it.
Then give commanders with higher rank and rep missions that carry more expensive cargo, and therefore pay then more per ton.
And again, please give those with large ships enough missions that fill their holds.
Finally, if you need to incentivize doing wing missions the answer is simple - use the same rules for pricing cargo deliveries as solo missions but offer a time bonus for completing the mission quickly - something only possible by transporting the cargo via multiple ships in a wing.
Fly Safe and thanks for all the Fish Cargo!
o7
Grey
TLDR; Dear FDev, please make payments for hauling cargo make sense, give us enough missions to fill our big ships without endlessly board switching, and make the incentive for doing wing missions a bonus paid if you deliver the goods faster than possible in a single ship by using a wing of multiple ships.
I'm asking sincerely FDev: since you put big ships in the game, please also put in enough missions to fill them.
And whether it's a wing mission or not, please make the price to haul a particular product per ton make sense based on the local situation, unlike the seemingly random prices shown in the screen shots in this thread.
Maybe it is already, and I'm just missing something? If that is the case please share how I'm missing the boat here.
While we're at it, you could also make trading a profitable alternative to running missions.
In my limited experience, the best twenty minute trade route I can find for my large ships still pays about one quarter of what I can make in twenty minutes running transport missions in my Python :-(
Conclusion: Trading comodities does not compete with missions for making credits.
I'd also suggest that you just don't pay higher rank and higher rep cmdr's more per ton to haul the same stuff as low ranked players. To me this makes no sense but that's how it is.
Instead, why not give commanders with lower rank and rep missions that carry less valuable cargo, and therefore pay them less per ton to deliver it.
Then give commanders with higher rank and rep missions that carry more expensive cargo, and therefore pay then more per ton.
And again, please give those with large ships enough missions that fill their holds.
Finally, if you need to incentivize doing wing missions the answer is simple - use the same rules for pricing cargo deliveries as solo missions but offer a time bonus for completing the mission quickly - something only possible by transporting the cargo via multiple ships in a wing.
Fly Safe and thanks for all the Fish Cargo!
o7
Grey
Played Warframe for a bit - Zephyr Prime is out today in case anyone was interested. A free to play game that many people complained was a bit grindy. Holy LOL on a stick, they would explode if they came across Elite, anyway I digress, came back to see how the thread was developing. As for OMG exploitz to generate magic money to people in the Wing Mission system, isn't the patently obvious solution to just pay out based on % of goods delivered? Seems like a no brainer to me, i.e. noobwinder does eff all but bonk into the side of station and delivers 0% they get nothing, but if they are smart and they work out how to jump eventually based on awesome in-game tutorials and deliver 4 tonnes of bio waste out of 1000 asked for they then get 0.4% of the payout = WoooOO Payday, Fish n Chips tonight! But you guys have to pay for the fish, I can only get chips with this.
Anyways food (fish n'chips) for thought.
p.s I dont really see the issue with noobwinders getting free money if someone wants to carry them (friends to get into pythons etc) apart from losing the grindy albeit fun part of the early game (noobwinder to hauler to T6 etc etc) and also it making zero sense economically - mah immersionz. After a while credits mean naff all anyway - it's G5 mats you need, and once you are done with them, well... there isn't anything else apart from pootle about and make your own stuff up as to why you are doing anything - am sure many people say that is how the game is meant to be from the beginning, and they likely have a point - good luck selling that though.
Anyways food (fish n'chips) for thought.
p.s I dont really see the issue with noobwinders getting free money if someone wants to carry them (friends to get into pythons etc) apart from losing the grindy albeit fun part of the early game (noobwinder to hauler to T6 etc etc) and also it making zero sense economically - mah immersionz. After a while credits mean naff all anyway - it's G5 mats you need, and once you are done with them, well... there isn't anything else apart from pootle about and make your own stuff up as to why you are doing anything - am sure many people say that is how the game is meant to be from the beginning, and they likely have a point - good luck selling that though.
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I don't get it why people are so upset with new players getting carried and getting credits from Wing missions. If my friend wants to play, I'd carry him and ensure he has a good time and help him get the ship he wants to play. My friend achieves that and enjoys the game, another customer for FDev's store!
Can't agree more with you. But then there is the fun police, better not enjoy the game too much
I know right
but TIL, by a wonderful combination of random formatting, that having friends is "cheating"
Agreed - using a Warframe (WF) analogy I am a member of a clan (guild, group whatever) and we always strive to help new player learn the ropes, give them heaps of free stuff and basically acclerate them through the total noob (bonking into stations, what does landing gear mean, what's a cargo scoop type thing) and help through the early stages - the Elite equivalent would be to give them a bunch of ships to fly, some engineered weapons and take them to haz rezes, do missions with them etc so they learn the ropes and have a jolly good time. All of this would be free and I dare say some folks in this unique community of ours would be horrified at the concept - CHEATING! You gave them stuff it took me ages to get! They'll never learn to be as good as me because they never had to spend 8 months in a sidewinder! Sacriledge!
It's all bullpoo of course. In a co-operative multiplayer game such as Warframe such behaviour is endorsed - people want to help others out - it's a pretty great community. Here, likely because we get the solo's and the private groups and the pvp'rs all mixed we get a thunderstorm of conflicting messages and desires and everyone else is completely wrong. Frontier of course need to sift through the dross and work out what works against their vision of the game - stay true on course as it were - they just need to get worried when all the competing and uncomplimentary factions agree on something which usually indicates they darn fooked up somewhere - if all sides agree something is wrong, it very likely is very very wrong indeed.
But back to the WF analogy, I think one of the reasons it has been so successful is because it condones people helping each other out - working in teams is a mainstay but you can solo to your hearts content if you wish - Elite seems to have instilled this idea that the Lone Wolf is the ideal but which they hoped to possibly change with multicrew (an due to lack of options and reasons to do it) and now with wings (aborted due to just terrible terrible balancing against lone wolf style).
If they truly want to get groups of players to form communities and multicrew, do wings, form attachments to each other and the game as a result they need to seriously do some research into what makes a successful multiplayer game tick - as it stands I dont think they have a scooby. I don't know if this is their intention, but if so just do some research - it makes sense from my perspective and would enhance Elite enormously if people could form Corps for example and organise within corps with their own comms channels and whatnot for BGS or wing missions etc - get newbies in, help them out with FREE!?! MAGIC MONEY wing missions to get them started and train them up how not to die when landing etc etc etc etc - more players, more happy players add to revenues and word of mouth advertising leading to more store purchases and so forth.
So, summary? If you want to go multiplayer, really, then do some research into what makes it work, implement proper group mechanics where players can organise and communicate in their own societal structures and ignore people that whine it's unfair because they want all the benefits of that but have to play solo for reasons (I play solo).
Hope this was on topic enough but considering this is about wing missions and the battle re: solo vrs free money for wing mates hopefully fits well enough.
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Well then dont wing up with what you call noobwinders then?
Or at all for that matter,you can do the wing missions solo if you wish and keep all the reward.
Next your gonna say the reward is X4 for a wing and i wont get the full reward,but guess what,in this thread it has been shown the solo trade missions are just as profitable as the wing ones. Guess who there designed for?
Again you want wing missions to work in a way that makes sense for solo players to do them. That goes against what they are meant for.
Also capaital letters,bold letters etc dont make your points any worse or better.
Agreed, I play Warframe more these days because of the fact that co-op and group play is encouraged and endorsed by the COMMUNITY and Devs. Their group play system and mechanics, while not perfect, is solid enough to support and reward group activities. All that makes the grind less painful when you can enjoy it with mates. And, this leads to an AMAZING positive and helpful community.
I agree with you here, FDev should research into this more, eg. look at Warframe.
Wing missions is a first step in that direction, it needs to be solid and more rewarding.
So true, the biggest issue with ed is the unpredictable rewards on missions, I dont play ed anymore for at least 1 year, just take a look from time to time, open the mission board, laugh at ridiculous payouts and quit the game.
As everything else fd over complicated the reward formula making it a senseless not logical mess for the player which translates to horrible frustrating gameplay.
Maybe one idea would be to simplify the formula a lot and show what is affecting each mission reward in its description.