Wing mission balance pass

[Screemonster]

While you are at checking wing missions, please check the Massacre Thargoids ones please.
Because 3.7 ish millions for killing a basilik is not even a joke but a troll.

3.7M for something that's a risky fight even in an A-rated conda, with ten times that in rebuy if you lose.

Honestly, for the dangerous stuff, this rough formula should apply:
(probability of ship destruction) * (cost of rebuy) = where you start for reward values. Hell, make that the formula for rank.

Elite-ranked combat mission? Multiply chance of this mission's opponent taking out a corvette by the rebuy of an a-rated corvette. Then add some gravy on top to make it worth doing over a zero-risk mission. sure, you can reduce your odds of getting blown up if you've got a better ship than the rank expects, but your rebuy will be bigger too, so hopefully it'll work out. Conversely, if you think you're good enough to punch up - well. They expect 50% chance of a rebuy on a FDL and you're only in a vulture? Godspeed you crazy sonofagun.

Mission based on exploration rank? Well, not so much chance of destruction in combat unless it's specifically a risky thing, but you might splat into a star at some point if you nod off partway along a 20kly journey, so take some (probably pretty small) chance per kly and multiply it by the cost of the ship someone that rank might reasonably be expected to be exploring in - dbx, asp, jumpaconda, whatever.

 

[GammaZ]

Wing = playing the game with others ...
Solo = playing the game alone ...

It's pretty damn clear surely

I respect each choice of play style but object to solo players thinking they have some special position on this, if you want the better rewards by playing with others get into Open, wing up, have fun and make money but please don't spout stupid arguments about immersions, rewards or how unfairly you are being treated, because it's a choice.

Wing Missions are the best thing in this game in years, they have been 'balanced' in a way that kills the benefits and hopefully that can be fixed.

If the issue is really "I can't find solo missions as there's too many Wing ones" then that needs to be fixed with another Mission Menu as Passengers.

This is not player's mistake, this is design issue. When "wing" missions are just regular missions with number of ships to kill/tonnes to haul increased they will inevitably be viewed just like that - simply bigger version of solo missions.
They should be hard, they should actually require a wing to be doable. Like in any other MMO. Then there will still be people who will try to do them solo, which should in no way be profitable or time-efficient, but can provide nice challenge for those who want higher difficulty too.
As it is now - 100% of them are doable in solo, 99% of them have exactly the same difficulty as regular solo missions, but simply require more time to complete.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

This is not player's mistake, this is design issue. When "wing" missions are just regular missions with number of ships to kill/tonnes to haul increased they will inevitably be viewed just like that - simply bigger version of solo missions.
They should be hard, they should actually require a wing to be doable. Like in any other MMO. Then there will still be people who will try to do them solo, which should in no way be profitable or time-efficient, but can provide nice challenge for those who want higher difficulty too.
As it is now - 100% of them are doable in solo, 99% of them have exactly the same difficulty as regular solo missions, but simply require more time to complete.

I'd have to agree on that.

The "Wing" Missions are for example present in all Modes, including Solo Mode. Which naturally rules out any 2nd Player.
Yet, i.e. the Cargo requirements are increased 10- to 25-fold, while offering merely a somewhat increased Payout. And if a Solo Player sees this, it'll naturally make zero sense.

Make two hauls of 180 tons Gold/Silver/Palladium taking you two trips @ 10-15 Minutes each? Or Haul 7000-8000 tons of {Commodity} taking 20++ trips and several hours... for a very similar reward.
That all just doesn't add up, something is clearly wrong there.

Things would be different, IF
- Wing Missions would only show up when the Mission Board was opened while already in a Wing
- Wing Missions would only show up in PG/Open Modes

But since they don't, they're just upscaled Missions based on the existing ones, with CG mechanics applied. Which is cool, as it fulfills the demand from Players asking to fully utilize their big Ships.
The only thing missing is the proper relation of Rewards, meaning Credits, Materials, Reputation and BGS/Influence.

(I'd be tempted to Haul 8000 tons {Commodity} if the Rewards were appropriate. If a normal (same type) Mission offers me 1M Cr, I'd expect a 25x Haulage to pay somewhere near 25x of that - or have some really juicy Material Rewards for example. 5x MEF (Wing MSN) instead of 3x (Normal MSN 1/25th of the size) doesn't quite cut it.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Frankly I don't get this nerf. Wing haulage missions where already less profitable than solo ones when doing them in a wing of 3, but then they cut profit by 2 and increase tonnage by 2 ?

It does not make any sense, and it make a fun an ok-level profit activity into a giant pro-bono slog.

Our player group is quite disgusted by the move to be honest. Once again coop players get the chaft because a few voices.

No wonder player groups bleed players with the anti-coop stance that FD chose to follow.

We're taking a BGS break again, going to do some thargoid stuff while frontier gets their marbles together and decides if coop is actually a supported gameplay style. Or not.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Wing = playing the game with others ...
Solo = playing the game alone ...

It's pretty damn clear surely

I respect each choice of play style but object to solo players thinking they have some special position on this, if you want the better rewards by playing with others get into Open, wing up, have fun and make money but please don't spout stupid arguments about immersions, rewards or how unfairly you are being treated, because it's a choice.

Wing Missions are the best thing in this game in years, they have been 'balanced' in a way that kills the benefits and hopefully that can be fixed.

If the issue is really "I can't find solo missions as there's too many Wing ones" then that needs to be fixed with another Mission Menu as Passengers.

you just dont get it do you, or it is willful ignorance. for the vast majority this is not about "stupid" arguments... actually it sort of it..... having magic multipliers IS stupid game design, it is far more realistic to offer a contract which pays X amount and then allow the courier to decide how to fulfil that contract. I dont phone up travis perkins and order a ton of bricks and demand how they deliver it, i just say i need these bricks by 10am tomorrow.... and they deliver.

i certainly dont pay 4X more because 4 lorries deliver in 1 go...... I MAY however offer to pay more for expedited delivery which would then need more than 1 wagon to deliver in time.

doing it this way has ZERO negative effect for those playing in a wing, it is MORE realistic (yeah i am one of those immersion folk, sue me ) and has a bonus side effect of it benefiting solo players AS WELL AS wing players... where is the harm there, you seem to WANT to stop the lone wolf having nice things even when it does not harm you this method STILL allows you to help noobs in small ships if you choose... all carrot no stick for anyone

now

OTOH if i was complaining that kill pirate wing missions are too hard and need to be nerfed so that i can solo it... THEN i would agree with you, but from what i can tell no one is saying that (tho that said i bought the game on the advertising (i did say promise but have edited out, KSer aims and DDF was not a promise) of hirable wing mates which FD have not delivered on, but that is a slightly different issue and is not about changing the missions but above FD not delivering on certain features.

 

[Muetdhiver]

So you are saying : take a 8M net profit wing mission for 8k ton and cut in four. Ie. 2M for 2k ton. Or 1k per ton. That is a lot less than AB bulk trading. Hell, even medicine/food delivery is 3k/t.

Why would anyone take part in that ?

Funny how no one is calling to cut bounties in four. Wouldn't that be great ? Nope, because it would kill coop bounty hunting.

Wing missions were fine. Only thing lacking was the lack of an influence +++ mission reward choice for BGS groups. Rewarding winging up is fine. In fact it should be expanded.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So you are saying : take a 8M net profit wing mission for 8k ton and cut in four. Ie. 2M for 2k ton. Or 1k per ton. That is a lot less than AB bulk trading. Hell, even medicine/food delivery is 3k/t.

Funny how no one is calling to cut bounties in four. Wouldn't that be great ? Nope, because it would kill coop bounty hunting.

.

i had no problem with wing bounties as they were before... i think you missed multiple posts in this thread

the way to encourage wing play in combat is to have some really big npc wings which would literally be too hard to do on your own, (we used to have them) again, i say no to magic pay boosts........ so there you go

But NO i am NOT saying that and neither is anyone else..... I am saying multiply the pay on the board by 3-4x and then add really hard to meet (impossible to meet on your own) time bonuses to encourage wing play, IF wing play isnt fun enough in and of itsself.

wing missions should not be less effective to do in a wing than solo... but when it makes sense that it is possible to do on your own, i do not see why they should be artificially boosted either.

your reply was a classic straw man, you altered what people are asking for to fit some strange narrative that no one wants... why would you do that?

 

[Muetdhiver]

i had no problem with wing bounties as they were before... i think you missed multiple posts in this thread

the way to encourage wing play in combat is to have some really big npc wings which would literally be too hard to do on your own, (we used to have them) again, i say no to magic pay boosts........ so there you go

Why not have a hybrid system then : per player hire fee plus a pot to divide equally.

And I don't see the difference with bounties that are also magically multiplied. If one does make sense and is not a problem then the other should be the same : fine & not a problem.

 

[Adjuster666]

So you are saying : take a 8M net profit wing mission for 8k ton and cut in four. Ie. 2M for 2k ton. Or 1k per ton. That is a lot less than AB bulk trading. Hell, even medicine/food delivery is 3k/t.

Why would anyone take part in that ?

Funny how no one is calling to cut bounties in four. Wouldn't that be great ? Nope, because it would kill coop bounty hunting.

Wing missions were fine. Only thing lacking was the lack of an influence +++ mission reward choice for BGS groups. Rewarding winging up is fine. In fact it should be expanded.

Soooo you want to be over-rewarded just because you have a few mates to play with?

So you will do said mission 4 times faster than a lone-wolf thus enabling you to do, now lets be generous, 2 further over-rewarded missions in the same time it will take the lone-wolf to complete the original mission. Thereby you will, in the same amount of game time it takes the lone-wolf to earn 8m, net 24m all because you are in a wing.

It simply doesn't stack up with me.

 

[Hessfire]

And what I was originally suggesting has now been put together as a thread in Feedback & Suggestions here:https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/416422-Suggestion-for-Rework-of-Mission-System

It covers a 400% BUFF to Mission payouts.
It Covers the ability to treat EVERY Mission as a Wing Mission (or a Solo Mission) as the situation merits
It Covers the disbursement of said payment pool
It Covers Mission Bonuses, Increased/Reduced payments to Wing Members, Failure Fines, Cargo Theft...and plenty more

It allows Commanders a better system for managing their own Risk/Reward balance in their endeavors.

It is an open discussion - the only Ground rules are:
Constructive and well reasoned criticism is welcome - I don't mind having debate or discussion, but you better be able to back yourself up with honest facts...so no throwing shade.
Discussion and debate needs to be kept civil - it is not intended to be a shouting match nor an echo chamber. We're all passionate about the same thing here, so let's try to work together to get what we ALL want - a better more engaging game for everyone.

Hope to see you there..

Give it a look as it addresses several aspects of the Mission System in an attempt to integrate them into a more comprehensive whole.

Constructive criticism and feedback always welcome...

Fly Safe CMDR

o7​

 

[Muetdhiver]

Soooo you want to be over-rewarded just because you have a few mates to play with?

So you will do said mission 4 times faster than a lone-wolf thus enabling you to do, now lets be generous, 2 further over-rewarded missions in the same time it will take the lone-wolf to complete the original mission. Thereby you will, in the same amount of game time it takes the lone-wolf to earn 8m, net 24m all because you are in a wing.

It simply doesn't stack up with me.

Well it's just like bounties: in a wing you kill it 4x faster and get 4x the reward. Is that a problem too ?

In BH you wing up and deliver the goods (pirate heads) faster and get 4x the reward.

In wing haulage missions you wing up and deliver the goods (superconductors) faster and get 4x reward.

I don't see any difference. Do you ?

 

[Adjuster666]

Well it's just like bounties: in a wing you kill it 4x faster and get 4x the reward. Is that a problem too ?

In BH you wing up and deliver the goods (pirate heads) faster and get 4x the reward.

In wing haulage missions you wing up and deliver the goods (superconductors) faster and get 4x reward.

I don't see any difference. Do you ?

Yeah but currently it's not a time based reward, it's simply a magic 4 times payout if you happen to be in a 4 Cmdr wing. If both the wing and a lone wolf complete the task in the exact same time the wing of 4 gets 4x the payout

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well it's just like bounties: in a wing you kill it 4x faster and get 4x the reward. Is that a problem too ?

Personally I think so, yes.

In BH you wing up and deliver the goods (pirate heads) faster and get 4x the reward.

Yup, don't like it.

In wing haulage missions you wing up and deliver the goods (superconductors) faster and get 4x reward.

Again, don't like it.

I don't see any difference. Do you ?

No there isn't. They should all be shares of the rewards. For missions though it should be a share with a time bonus. The quicker it is done, the bigger the bonus. Because for some reason people seem to need an incentive to play with their mates.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Fully agree that speed bonus should be the way to go for wing cargo. But it's unlikely to happen. And if it does it will be 50k bonus on a 50M mission given FD track record in that department.

 

[BDelacroix]

Yeah but currently it's not a time based reward, it's simply a magic 4 times payout if you happen to be in a 4 Cmdr wing. If both the wing and a lone wolf complete the task in the exact same time the wing of 4 gets 4x the payout

It is just like every other MMO in the universe. A group goes to kill big bad dude and bring back his head. Everyone in the group gets a copy of the head and takes it back for a reward.

It is a game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

It is just like every other MMO in the universe. A group goes to kill big bad dude and bring back his head. Everyone in the group gets a copy of the head and takes it back for a reward.

It is a game.

"its a game" is not a valid reason in and of ittself. there are all sorts of games. iracing is a game but its users have very different expectations than burnout paradise players despite both being about racing cars.

the question is, is ED a Science fiction space game or a fantasy space game..... (DB himself promised us ED was never meant to be the standard type of MMO that people usually expect), i do not see any reason why an MMO cant try to stick to a relatively "hard" science fiction)

 

[BDelacroix]

"its a game" is not a valid reason in and of ittself. there are all sorts of games. iracing is a game but its users have very different expectations than burnout paradise players despite both being about racing cars.

the question is, is ED a Science fiction space game or a fantasy space game..... (DB himself promised us ED was never meant to be the standard type of MMO that people usually expect), i do not see any reason why an MMO cant try to stick to a relatively "hard" science fiction)

This is one of those things we just aren't going to agree on. Our opinions differ.

I think this opinion difference is largely the cause of the salt generation. Rather than being ok with opinions being different (not you, necessarily) people want even demand things be changed to their way.

If FDEV decided tomorrow they want to cut the payouts for wing mission by 75% and reward only people who brought cargo by the % of cargo they drop off then that would be what they decide. It would be just another mission type I ignore anyway. To be fair, I ignore a lot of mission types.

And again, if we wanted "reality", reality states we'd all more likely be a dirt farmer dying of some disease on a planet.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This is one of those things we just aren't going to agree on. Our opinions differ.

fair enough

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

A group goes to kill big bad dude and bring back his head. Everyone in the group gets a copy of the head and takes it back for a reward.
.

running with your comparison (because the point of this forum is to chat about stuff even if we disagree?)

i have never killed a thargoid, its not in my characters nature as he is not convinced they are the enemy yet... but...

i believe if you kill one they drop a heart i dont know much about it but i think they are worth a fortune? if in a wing, do you each see your own copy of the heart and get to collect it? i suppose i can check using materials as it will be the same logic. if we are in a wing, do we both see our own ships materials or is it a competition to see who can collect them 1st (i will check next time i am on with mates)

take Dying light for instance (a zombie game) i can pick up something and my mate can pick up the same thing. it works reasonably well as from my perspective there ISNT any magic duplication of anything, it just looks from my perspective that i am beeing greedy nicking everything, but from my tream mates perspective he gets all the gear too.......

 

[Muetdhiver]

Games as simulation

Games as toys

Games as stories

Depending on where two people sit in this triangle some points they will never agree on.

I'm firmly 3/4 into the story/toy corner.
Simulation for me has only value if it provides an interesting challenge to master without impeding the toying (fooling arround) aspect of the game and story delivery.