The problem with a simple "log in and check numbers" method is that most of the problems aren't fully consistent across the entire galaxy, but instead only crop up for odd edge case scenarios. These edge case scenarios are not always easy to find, so they are usually missed in betas and can even take a week or so for players to figure out on the live servers. Rather than trying to sort out these edge case scenarios in advance, they are better off creating an automated system that monitors and records missions that are being made and accepted so that FD can do some proper number crunching.
Wing mission balance pass
- Thread starter Bryski
- Start date
The problem with a simple "log in and check numbers" method is that most of the problems aren't fully consistent across the entire galaxy, but instead only crop up for odd edge case scenarios. These edge case scenarios are not always easy to find, so they are usually missed in betas and can even take a week or so for players to figure out on the live servers. Rather than trying to sort out these edge case scenarios in advance, they are better off creating an automated system that monitors and records missions that are being made and accepted so that FD can do some proper number crunching.
In the case of Source & return missions -
Having the Compensation Paid as a pool would allow the PC to first work the local Markets (even through the use of Wing Members as "scouts") to get the Supply Chain Identified, the Cargo Purchased, Transferred to the Dock for Pickup, and for Wing Members to then be repurposed into appropriate roles to get the Cargo in question effectively delivered. The Compensation Pool funds would be used for the Purchase (as this is also where the Failure Fines would be deducted) so it would be the responsibility of the PC to Effectively manage this fund as everyone's paycheck depends on getting the best price for the goods in question. Further, since everyone's paycheck is tied to the pool, Wing Members can choose whether or not to participate based upon their track record of profits coming from a given PC.
Granted it still needs fleshing out, but IMHO, this is more engaging gameplay than an individual finding a high-value mission and through the Magic of Corporate Welfare, everyone they choose to invite getting paid a Magic Multiplier of the initial contract in question. It addresses Risk v Reward, incentivizes success, and properly punishes failure - because if a given PC develops a running history of unprofitable behavior they are not going to be able to hire on the help they need to complete these missions.
Just my 2cr
Additional:
Back in the pre-Engineering days there were multi-part Missions. They basically specified (in the case of S&R Missions) that they were multi-stage missions up front, with an over-arching timeframe and reward to match.
They would start out with Source X - Deliver to A in a specified timeframe, for a set price. Depending upon your ability and time to complete that Leg of your journey (with its own bonuses/ constraints/etc.) you then would get the next piece of the puzzle to complete - while the Master timer still ran.
The cycle would repeat through 2-5 Legs and upon completion the final payout would also include any overall bonus for timely completion.
Each Leg could cause the Entire Mission to fail if either the Leg or Overall Timer had expired.
You also had the option of dropping the mission prior to completion, either because you couldn't source the goods for a given leg - or you found it to be unprofitable.
These missions were stackable, engaging, difficult (as the timer ran in real-time) and most importantly FUN!
The system that I have been proposing for the entire mission board changes the view from "a way to grind and farm credits" back to one of everyone, acting as a Galactic Entrepreneur, accepting contract work in a cut-throat Galaxy (where the factions/MegaCorps/Politicians don't care how, just that it gets done), managing your time and resources as effectively as possible to maximize profit/reputation/influence/contacts and most importantly FUN!
It's not about the destination...it's all about the journey!
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I would like to ask what are wing missions doing in Solo mode? What's the reason for them being there? Also, is it by design that grade 5 materials are now almost always exclusive to wing missions? Because that would be horrible. Thanks
Can frontier answer what they feel is excessive rewards?
If im tycoon trade rank,fully allied and pick up a deliver paladium wing mission what would be the top payout i should be expecting?
Without knowing im not sure i could say what is and isnt excessive. Obviously if im getting 100mil per mission that excessive but say i was able to earn 100mil in 3 or 4hrs,is that excessive?
Or are we just looking for edge cases that rely on different factors?
If im tycoon trade rank,fully allied and pick up a deliver paladium wing mission what would be the top payout i should be expecting?
Without knowing im not sure i could say what is and isnt excessive. Obviously if im getting 100mil per mission that excessive but say i was able to earn 100mil in 3 or 4hrs,is that excessive?
Or are we just looking for edge cases that rely on different factors?
the major issue with the wing missionsd, is the way you multiply the reward.
Wing missions, especially those where you have to haul things, need pay at least the same credit per tonne as regular haul missions do, but the reward divided by divided by contributors - EXCEPT mutlicrew.
Multicrew needs at a bare minimum have the full range of rewards applied through the same rules as bounties and combat bonds, (maybe except the BGS impact)
and that for all missions equally, not only certain wing missions.
Dividing the reward makes the mission not worth doing. It was perfectly fine before the nerf.
I would be all the hell over a wing ground base assault mission where you had to have one guy in an SRV run in to draw out the skimmers, access a data point or comms array, or take out the base's anti-air defences from under their arc of fire while a ship overhead takes care of their air support so the SRV doesn't get strafed to death by vipers.
Wing missions that require different people in different roles rather than just "bring an extra set of hardpoints to this assassination so we can focus the target down faster" or "bring your T9, two cargo holds will move this stuff twice as fast as one" would be fantastic.
Now you're getting it! See the potential? No more "grind" the mission boards for credits. Under the proposal people are incentivized for finding, planning, executing, and completing Mission Contracts - and I'm not even going out of my way to structure it so people make MORE money with MORE FUN! All this talk about teaching others how to "play" the game - this is where you put your money where your mouth is because instead of using some b$ Welfare mechanism you can put them in a role commensurate with their abilities, run through a contract with them along, and let them see the plan in action. It's a Win-Win however you slice it!
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Not if you multiply the mission pay by 3 or 4 and add in fast completion wrinkles. (And the wheel keeps on turning)
No, still not when multiplied. We’ll see what the forthcoming adjustment does to address it.
The problem with fast completion is that you’re asking for significant changes to the system, which is great to discuss but doesn’t fix the immediate issue.
Just multiplying by 4 and splitting makes it exactly as worthwhile to wings of 4 as it is now and actively boosts pay to any wing under 4 so I am not getting you. As for the wrinkle for fast completion. I am not a coder so no idea how much work it would be (but wrinkles for time already exist)
Besides fast completion, other wrinkles could be involved under my proposal. What this does is not only viewing Contracts as cr/hour but instead treats us each as Professionals. We get told "Do this for me" and we are left to our own devices to prepare, plan, execute, and accomplish the task - however we want, with as many or as few resources as we see fit. The goal here is to change the mindset and approach away from a checkers mindset (min/max credits) to a chess mentality (min/max FUN). You get to see and influence the whole board, instead of just the next move. Since the rewards are shared, others will have the tools at their disposal to make the decision as to whether to follow you or not - based on how FUN & Profitable their prior interactions with you have been. After all, you may be a Top Gun Combat Pilot (which would put your services in demand) but not have the chops for the planning and business side of the equation - and that's PERFECTLY FINE, because you would end up getting offered a ton of work that tailored to your skillset in a supporting role, but not need/want to sit in the big chair when it comes to negotiating and executing a plan for a Cargo Mission.
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two, two who get the point, one that is blind
great.
to bad that the devs implementing new stuff into the game belong to the blindfolded faction
after multicrew and wing mission desaster, i feel like the Q4 updates features are all doomed before they even reveal a single information about what they are planning.
and even if they reveal anything, they are already balls deep into coding it - so even a "focused feedback" period would have zero positive impact on it.
great.
to bad that the devs implementing new stuff into the game belong to the blindfolded faction
after multicrew and wing mission desaster, i feel like the Q4 updates features are all doomed before they even reveal a single information about what they are planning.
and even if they reveal anything, they are already balls deep into coding it - so even a "focused feedback" period would have zero positive impact on it.
A typical wing mission currently looks something like this [7500t of Gallite, Payout 7.5M]
Avg price, Gallite = 1914
Cost of goods: 1914 x 7500t = 14.4M
Cost per wing member (4): 14.4 / 4 = 3.6M
Profit per wing member (4): 7.5 - 3.6 = 3.9M
Trips per wing member (4, assuming Cutters)): 7500 / 720 / 4 = 2.6 (round to 3 because you can’t do a partial run)
Profit per person per trip: 3.9M / 3 = 1.3M
Like I said not worth it. Also this is a cheap material, imagine if it’s something valuable because the payouts don’t compensate for that.
Why would you think that if it had the same credit per ton as regular missions?
I'm sorry but..what? A cargo delivery mission of 6,000 is a community goal, Wing delivery missions should not equate that, especially only offering a "slight" pay increase.
This is the absolute top end from what i can gather,missions will probaly range from 300/400t all the way up to 6000t. This more or less seems to revert it to pre 3.0.3
Frontier seem to be able to adjust two things with these missiom,the rewards and what they have called the cargo curve. Ie how much cargo on average need transporting.
This change lowers that average. If its gone far enough we will have to see.
now, when the max cargo range for those missions was lowered,
and the rewards overall increased
but still the reward getting paid out to all members "participating" in the wing...
doesn't that mean, that the ability to amass huge number of credits on an "inactive" wing member is now much higher?
and the rewards overall increased
but still the reward getting paid out to all members "participating" in the wing...
doesn't that mean, that the ability to amass huge number of credits on an "inactive" wing member is now much higher?
I'm a solo player - I don't do wing missions. I did 2 before the "balance pass" to see what the fuss is about. I was able to solo it - thank you Cutter! No big deal. Payout was interesting, but nothing to write home about.
The payment system doesn't make sense. It only encourages people "giving money" to lowbies. Take a wing mission of 4000 cargo, add 3 players in sideys, they each haul 1t, one player in a cutter hauls the rest, and everyone gets the full brunt of 5mil. Free money for new players. The fact that it was a cutter that did all the schlepping is left out of the picture.
Here is the most logical way this should get handled:
- quadruple the base payout - you want to solo it, you get the full monty for yourself. You duo wing it, half the money each. 4 players? a quarter each. Everyone is raving on about immersion, how even a cow paint on a T9 breaks immersion because "it's not normal". Well guess what! Neither is a camo paint in space, and neither is an employer promising 5m for someone to haul 4000 tons of cargo. And then every person who pretends to have helped the same amount too. No. Doesn't work that way, not today, and not a 1000 years in the future. You get promised 5m, that's what you get. Not a dime more. You need helpers? You pay them - not the employer.
Also, for the love of the mission board - move them to a separate tab. 80% of the mission board is just wing missions. I've been doing other things than checking the mission board, because I know it's just all about hauling stuff - in a wing of 6 cutters with 1500 cargo space each - for 4m payout.
Please FDev - I really love this game. And I want to keep playing it. Please fix it to make it playable again.
Restoring the Palin Mission payout would be great too.
The payment system doesn't make sense. It only encourages people "giving money" to lowbies. Take a wing mission of 4000 cargo, add 3 players in sideys, they each haul 1t, one player in a cutter hauls the rest, and everyone gets the full brunt of 5mil. Free money for new players. The fact that it was a cutter that did all the schlepping is left out of the picture.
Here is the most logical way this should get handled:
- quadruple the base payout - you want to solo it, you get the full monty for yourself. You duo wing it, half the money each. 4 players? a quarter each. Everyone is raving on about immersion, how even a cow paint on a T9 breaks immersion because "it's not normal". Well guess what! Neither is a camo paint in space, and neither is an employer promising 5m for someone to haul 4000 tons of cargo. And then every person who pretends to have helped the same amount too. No. Doesn't work that way, not today, and not a 1000 years in the future. You get promised 5m, that's what you get. Not a dime more. You need helpers? You pay them - not the employer.
Also, for the love of the mission board - move them to a separate tab. 80% of the mission board is just wing missions. I've been doing other things than checking the mission board, because I know it's just all about hauling stuff - in a wing of 6 cutters with 1500 cargo space each - for 4m payout.
Please FDev - I really love this game. And I want to keep playing it. Please fix it to make it playable again.
Restoring the Palin Mission payout would be great too.
Previously I could get missions right through the range from a faction. Looking tonight at allied I was only seeing 7000t level ones. To test I abandoned some missions reducing rep and as I fell through friendly etc down to unfriendly the amount required dropped at each level.
Seems higher rep you don't see the lower missions as an option.
Ended up moving somewhere I was less liked to get wing missions with nicer amounts to deliver. Didn't care about credits we were winging for the materials.