Meanwhile the EliteMeet in April is sponsored by HCS. It remains to be seen what will happen about that.
Hcs voice packs altering other apps code?
- Thread starter Lordxenu
- Start date
It would seem that GMP was also circumventing licensing to use HCS plugins without permission, which would also violate copyright laws on several countries.
This will be an interesting story to follow closely!
Really? Haha!
Rafe Zetter
Banned
I'm not sure where your information for that is coming from - citation required, because GMP uses ZERO HCS assets, GMP doesn't need HCS to function within VA.
HCS and GMP were performing different functions within VA.
The "infringement" lawsuit HCS brought against GMP was proven to be unfounded.
HCS has no rights to monopolise what plugins work within VA as they don't own VA, and as I stated before HCS still works when other NON GMP plugins are used.
About the only possible thing Paul Watson, HCS's owner might be able to salvage from this is to sell HCS the company in entirety for a modest sum to other developers and walk away- because as the dominant market leader it still currently has some value. He might even manage to not lose his shirt in the process, because right now there are thousands of users doing chargebacks, a process whereby a customers bank (or paypal) will remove the money from the vendor's bank account and the vendor has no say in the matter. Doesn't even matter if the vendors bank account is empty - he'll just go into the red and owe the bank.
HCS voicepacks could still have a future - but not if it's still attached to Paul Watson. He's shown his true colours and no-one's buying.
I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense.
OK I'm going to have to stop you right here. I own GMP's VMX product and have for a while. They have NEVER NEVER EVER used HCS's plugin for reading the player journal. I know Paul Watson would like everyone to believe that, but it is absolutely not true. GMP had relied upon EDDI for this function - and I'm sure any EDDI devs on this forum can back this up. Recently with the release of Elite: Dangerous Beyond, GMP has released an updated product with their own journal reader so now they don't even need to rely on EDDI anymore. So please get your facts straight before you go and accuse someone of circumventing licenses. In legal circles, this is called libel.
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It may be the case I do not know what is going on. I am certainly not aware of HCS' financial position, so was not aware of the risk that they are going out of business. I cannot find any filing for a GMP lawsuit., so I am guessing it is a possibility rather than a certainty. Not sure of relative size of the 2 organisations, but you do need to show loss of income when suing.
My limited understanding is, HCS set a variable in thier code to rubbish value, this has no effect on GMP unless GMP and HCS voicepack is used in the same profile, and this is an intentional act to stop the 2 bits of software running together. The latest version of the HCS voicepacks does not do this, but if it detects being in the same profile as GMP, the HCS voice pack becomes crippled.
Now that is not very nice behaviour by HCS, I agree with that, but I thought a rights holder could limit how their contents is used. I am no legal expert, so what law has HCS broken? Is it the singling out of one other product that is the legal problem?
And just to repeat, what has the above got to do with FD, which was the bit in your original post I thought was a strange position?
Cheers
Simon
Well said
I honestly don't think I will have much luck; I have had it for quite a while. It is still worth a try...
An interesting twist would be that FD buys the company for a song ...... the timing might have fallen into FD's lap. (Depends on liabilities uncovered during due diligence.) Or they pick the company up later, after the (space) dust has fallen.
Hi MOM! <3
Oh lord not you too <3
Rafe Zetter
Banned
Again with the "rights holder imposing control".
Ordinarily this would be true - but HCS has no rights over GMP. GMP is a separate company that provides a plugin to use with VA. This GMP plugin (called VMX) does not use any assets of HCS to work (please see posts just above yours for independent verification). HCS does not even need to be installed on the users computer for GMP to function within VA.
HCS tried to impose a "usage licence" upon GMP and failed because GMP DOES NOT USE HCS CODE TO FUNCTION. GMP has no need to purchase a usage licence from HCS. HCS has been unable to even prove ina court of law that GMP is required to purchase a licence or otherwise they are guilty of IP "infringement".
HCS deliberately altered lines of code in sections of the "master" VA program that HCS DOES NOT USE for functionality (or even own) - for the SOLE PURPOSE of crippling GMP usage on a GMP users computer, so a user cannot have GMP and HCS working side by side, providing DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS for the user, and did so without telling the user.
HCS has been flailing around for over a year to try to lock down GMP and failed on all counts, because there's NOTHING TO LOCK DOWN - we live in a "free market society" where open competition for product market share is actively encouraged and furthermore PROTECTED BY LAW.
So they resorted to dirty tricks, and got caught, as they deserved. Your "not very nice behaviour" is HIGHLY ILLEGAL IN PRETTY MUCH EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH. They have not broken just "one " law, but many.
As far as HCS financial position, it's a sole trader company - just one person owns it, and it's not even a limited company iirc - so any financial issues fall onto the owner to pay, and right about now he'll be realising just how much customer chargebacks are going to cost him; it's quite possible he might even declare backruptcy rather than have to pay all the chargebacks and I say this because HCS has by far the largest market share of VA plugins, and has probably sold tens of thousands, with an avg price between £10-15 GBP. Even 1% chargebacks will be crippling financially.
As far as FD is concerned regarding HCS - FDev have an offically publicised partnership with HCS for their COVUS voice packs being sold in FDev's store. Right now FDev are linked in business with HCS, and thus thier business partners ethical (or not) business practises, and HCS just broke a truckload of laws, willingly and with forethought.
Why FDev are not running away, at speed already, by declaring a breakage of that partnership, I have no clue.
I think you may have missed the whole issue.
Ya mean I gots me no comprenshion?
Nah - I just don't care
Rafe Zetter
Banned
Time passed since purchase has no meaning in this instance - the software has fundamentally changed and is now actively interfering with other legitimately bought independent software - all you'll need to do is point to the reddit and other pages for it to become obvious that if you want to use GMP, that you can't have HCS alongside it - by HCS's owner Paul Watsons own actions and admission.
It's there for all to see.
In the UK (where HCS is based and thus the UK laws apply regardless of country where you live) we have a law that states an object or item must be "fit for purpose" - and the laws were changed to include digital media.
HCS has been altered by the creator to the point it can no longer provide the same functionality as it had when you purchased it. The core feature of VA is that it allows multiple plugins to work together, providing different features to the end user.
HCS sabotaged that, for no other reason than malice. HCS does not function better if GMP is disabled, HCS does not declare in any literature anywhere that GMP usage will actively conflict with HCS code and thus it is not recommended that both be used side by side. Until a month or so ago GMP and HCS worked side by side no problems at all, until HCS latest Singularity update, which is when the problems started, and it was only in the last 24 hours it was found WHY.
So yeah - chargeback - you won't be alone.
Thanks for the information. I will see what I can do. Why is it that I recall somewhere that I believe HCS was trying to implement a music program themselves. This probably started with that in order to run GMP out of the market. Needless to say, that is what innovation and creating a superior product is for, not to try to route your competitors out and monopolize the market.
Rafe Zetter
Banned
If the chargebacks happen as I suspect the liabilities will be significant - will that still make it worth it? Well HCS still has market dominance in this area, and it can be modified to work with Star Citizen as well, so there's that whole market, if FDev bought it they would be wise to keep it a separate entity.
As far as "pick it up later" who knows; if Paul Watson does go belly up and might even declare bankruptcy to limit his liability to chargebacks as HCS isn't a Ltd company, would he sell up just to help get out of that hole, or would he keep the rights - bankruptcy lasts just 6 years iirc - so after that he would be free to trade again.
Some of that depends on his personal familial situation, if he has a wife and children (he's 47) then he'll sell to avoid losing the family home which looks like they own it (yes I've looked on google earth, he registered his home address with companies house - idiot) - if no family, who knows.
I've just had an evil thought and it's a doozy. but I'm not sharing, I don't want to jinx it. PM if you wanna know
Thank you Cmdr Rafe Zetter for your explanation.
Changing someone else's code and/or content without permission is indeed very wrong. The Reddit post I read this morning suggested global variable values were changed, which seems ok to me. A content provider does not need to play nice, but cannot alter other parties content.
If the latest version of the HCS voicepacks still alter GMP code - this would indeed put HCS on dodgy ground, if it does not then I am struggling to see how it will be the doom and gloom predicted, I suspect it depends in wich territory any legal case was prosecuted.
From a justice point of view, I hope you are correct about the chargebacks, I would be suprised though.
As for FDev, I hope they continue supplying COVUS voicepacks. thus implying a continued partnership with HCS - I like more content not less content, but HCS should behave legally, if not ethically for that to continue.
Simon
Changing someone else's code and/or content without permission is indeed very wrong. The Reddit post I read this morning suggested global variable values were changed, which seems ok to me. A content provider does not need to play nice, but cannot alter other parties content.
If the latest version of the HCS voicepacks still alter GMP code - this would indeed put HCS on dodgy ground, if it does not then I am struggling to see how it will be the doom and gloom predicted, I suspect it depends in wich territory any legal case was prosecuted.
From a justice point of view, I hope you are correct about the chargebacks, I would be suprised though.
As for FDev, I hope they continue supplying COVUS voicepacks. thus implying a continued partnership with HCS - I like more content not less content, but HCS should behave legally, if not ethically for that to continue.
Simon
Rafe Zetter
Banned
I floated that idea myself as a possible theory - so it could have been me, or maybe I heard the same as you somewhere, it would certainly make a bit more sense than "I'm going to screw GMP and break laws just out of spite".