Elite has Grown Beyond its Capacity. Is it time for a new Elite game?

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sb413197

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EDIT:
Thanks for all those who provided their input to this thread. I particularly appreciated the voices of experience who described how they continued to improve very old software - it gave me hope that this game may indeed have more life in it, maybe a lot more. We shall see....space legs and atmospheric landings next week right?!
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I'm not a programmer, so I was amused and curious when I saw the term "spaghetti code" used on here a few months ago. Apparently it refers to a phenomenon in which a program is so complicated and its code so intertwined, that making a change in one part does crazy and unexpected stuff in totally different areas, causing things to break whenever something is changed.

From the eyes of an outside observer, it certainly seems that Elite is fully "spaghettified" now (if that is a thing?). In the 2.x updates for example, we must have seen exquisite focus crystals, cracked industrial firmware and biotech conductors disappear from the game 3-4 times - every time something was changed, that (and a million other things) broke, with crazy new bugs popping up with increasing frequency at each new update. And...this seems to be accelerating. Frontier obviously cares about their community and product, and they are quite amazing - but the bugs have exponentially increased as they have tried to fix things and add new features.

I'm glad that they have undertaken the effort to deepen the experience and develop previously underused functions - it was a needed effort, but now I see why they hadn't done it earlier. Personally I'm very much hoping there is no version 4.0 - that instead they will start with a new game....and that the next Elite contains everything we've all been hoping for in so many hundreds of suggestion threads. I've played for 1500 hours and I truly enjoyed that time - AND CONTINUE TO ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME - but I think it's clear that this framework has reached its limits. I will joyously part with my ~200 earth worlds discovered, fleet of 20 G5 engineered ships, billions of credits, triple elite and admiral/king rank, and look forward to the next game. This has been a FANTASTIC game and I place it up there with the greatest games I have ever played - right up there with my favorites of all time (Legend of Zelda 1 for Nintendo, Phastasy Star 2 for genesis, Sid Meier's Pirates for Amiga, Privateer 1 and 2 for PC, Master of Orion 1 and 2 for PC - and Elite Dangerous now right up there with the best of them.)

I plan to continue to play this great game obviously - I'm still enjoying it, for all the growing problems. I'm riding this train until the wheels come off....and they ARE coming off...I just personally hope a new train pulls up!
 
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Deleted member 115407

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I have to admit, I'm nearing the end of my tether.

I was on a break before 3.0, and the release brought to me a renewed interest in the game. Unfortunately decisions made since have all but stifled that interest.
 

Hellakitty

Hellakitty
I've gone back to playing Siege. It's a new season and the metagame has changed considerably with the new operators.

I'm sure I'll pop onto Elite when I need to scratch that space itch, or if something interesting appears during the updates due for the rest of the year.
 

Deleted member 115407

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Hellakitty said:
I've gone back to playing Siege. It's a new season and the metagame has changed considerably with the new operators.

I'm sure I'll pop onto Elite when I need to scratch that space itch, or if something interesting appears during the updates due for the rest of the year.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there are some other games I want to play. I'll check back in now and then to see what has happened with the game.
 

kofeyh

kofeyh
sb413197 said:
I'm not a programmer..
Click to expand...

Mm, that's how all the best threads start. Kidding! Mostly. Frontier are addressing mechanics that have, ostensibly, laid dormant (as has some of it's code) for a couple years. However just build a new game, doesn't solve how we got here in the first one.

Frontier work exceedingly hard, but some of the games issues, rightly or wrongly, went into the "too hard" basket, where all great ideas go to die. They're trying to resolve some long-standing issues within the game, and they are almost certainly going to continue to break live, badly, for the foreseeable future. This is just how they've built and maintained elite. A reimagine of a reimagining, wouldn't change, really, how Frontier has electing to release, how they've elected to test, and the cycle they have. This is all well established at this point.

They didn't do it earlier, because they were trying to build a player base and have people fund future development; and that requires shiny things to attract. There won't be a new train though; Braben has mostly clocked out and moved on already. He's scratched that itch; and he only needed our money to do so. We were a necessary evil. Nice guy who fundimentally still has far more interest in the BGS and the Universe than the players who inhabit.

My heart actually goes out to Sandy. He was handed the keys and is pretty much having to set most of the direction at this point; that much is plain to see. He has an excellent team. Working really hard, that are let down by the circumstances and patterns they've had to work with.

The team should be super proud to have got this far; and they are phenomenal for persisting in trying to wrangle the code and the people into something resembling a good outcome. I disagree with some of what they have done; but I have nothing but respect for the stupid hours and massive effort that's gone in so far. I really hope Frontier can get over this hump, and go on to build an exceptional title. We all know the potential is there.

But I am a realist and I know, that this is only going to get a lot worse, before it gets better. So I play with what works; my hour count is now way way down. I've discovered warframe and other titles, and this is giving me fresh perspective,

I think Frontier are on to a winner. I just hope they find a solution to the disconnect between developer and player, and the extremes become much more of the shepherding, the game really needs instead. I think they'll do it, too. Sandy is a fighter. He's more alike than people give him credit for; he's perhaps just not realised how much it might help, to wear the same shoes we do. Like any developer, eventually they will find that balance, and the game will go from strength to strength as a result.

I've gotten way more value than my spend; and I am a-okay with that.
 
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metatheurgist

metatheurgist
Spaghetti code is actually unplanned badly structured code. It doesn't just happen over time, you have to actively use bad coding practises to make it happen, which can slip in over time if practises become lax but it's not inevitable. I'd be surprised if FD coding's practises were that bad but I've also been surprised by how often bugs recur and how often things break that really shouldn't have been touched by what I can see has changed. And I am a coder. ;)
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
Said it before but if Frontier write ED off and create a new game, I won't be buying it.

They need to get this game working properly before they even think about another Elite game.
When/if they do, I wouldn't be averse to an RTS or FPS set in the ED universe but I won't be buying another spaceship sim' from Frontier until ED works properly.
 

NW3

NW3
The situation is not hopeless. I'm a Software Engineer working on a project that includes code going back to 1985 (really!). Much of the early code was written before good coding practices were developed.

Slowly, we are improving and refactoring that crufty old code. The first thing to do is to carefully isolate the code, so that it can be unit-tested. We use GTest. Then algorithms and modules can be refactored, without breaking something. After the code is refactored, it can be improved (and the tests updated).

It takes time, but is absolutely doable.
 
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Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Spaghetti code usually takes some refactoring to fix. Refactoring can take quite a bit of time, so its always a toss up whether to continue with an existing system or take the time out to refactor.

Its nothing unusual by the way. Happens in many complex projects over time. You start with a feature and start developing it and everything looks fine. Then you have to add something else that doesn't quite fit, and its easier to hack something a bit to get it working than refactor. But its ok, its only a small hack. Then it happens again, and again, and again, and eventually you end up with a horrible mess. If you take the time every time you add a new feature to get it right, it can take a lot of time, and devs are always under pressure to get the new features in.

Seen it in a lot of projects at our company where the development has gone on over many years. Even worse because we work for clients who don't always give us full information about their future plans (and often they don't know themselves, especially startups) so we have to work on presumptions about what might or might not be required later, and in the end, you can't second guess. All you can do is try and make the code as modular as possible, but even that won't stop such things happening.

Anyway, starting over might help FD redo things in a way that would be better, but overall it would take longer than just refactoring what is already there.

So no, it doesn't make sense for FD to go to a new game from that perspective, and it would also anger many people who have paid for THIS game.
 
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Finn638

F
sb413197 said:
... but I think it's clear that this framework has reached its limits.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the case, atm it seems more like a rough patch. One potential outcome is that they will straighten out the mess and continue on improving and expanding the game. On the other hand - worst case scenario - if it really gets out hand to the point where the devs can't cope with it anymore, the game will still be milked for all it's worth for a very long time (though I don't think ED is anywhere near that point, my personal gripes aside). Such project that took so much time and effort to create will not just get abandoned. You'll know when it's been given up on if it goes F2P. But an online game can stay alive and be milked for a very long time after its prime, and looks like FDev still have plans ahead for this game before they move on to another one. I may or may not be here when (if?) all the current problems get straightened out, but doubtful the devs have given up on this game yet.
 

Captain Willard

Captain Willard
The only fail FD has had is making open in this game. A mainly single player game, adding pg was inspirational. ED never was a pvp game, trying to invite that into the elite universe was an instant fail. If FD had made a separate pvp game it would already be dead.
I always laughed at the single player games that added multiplayer maps as an addon, they never last long.
It was easy to see why this game could never be an offline game, to much data for any computer. Adding a tiny pvp mode, thinking there would be real honorable pirates was, well, it was never gonna happen. Delete open mode and work on the real player base.
 
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