PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

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what balance? balance PvP in which most encounters are overengineerd combat ships praying on underequipped ones? ther eis never a balance on that level anyways because those seeking pray always seek easy targets, the remaining PvP crow is negliable small in this game, so FD will probably never care.

The game is designed with ship progression in mind, so bigger is better (and worse grind) so there won't be balance within this. This is the most basic ideas of EDs design and you cannot balance this ever without breaking the entire game concept.

PvP ships are not the best measure. PvP is more or less broken at the moment.
I would rather see player ships restricted to current NPC level, than the other way around.

If were FD, I would start by pealing of all the noice that prevents a managable situation.

By noice I mean: SCB, SB, MRP, HRP, weapons special effects, premium synth ammo, PP modules and similar stuff.

After this the ships should be ballanced to fit their intended role. All changes applied to base values.

For engineering, just remove the OC power plant blueprint.
 
Ye been here long enough to know exactly what would happen...so yer sick of being labelled as something yer not...well newsflash m8 so is everyone else.

Heres the situation...yer trying to tell everyone this is a community wide problem and half the community are of the belief that its really not their problem at all. So how do ye expect players to react when yer trying to involve them in something they already turned their back on? What exactly did ye expect when half the players in solo were forced to go there by the very same players who now claim the entire community has a problem.

This will never have a happy ending because the two playstyles are completely incompatible with each other...it was a case of round peg being forced into the square hole pre engineers...then engineers made it so much worse and made the relative disparity into a grand canyon.

Put simply, the pvp community doesnt have an argument at all...they think they do but yer intended audience turned their back on this entire debacle years ago with the pvp community left with nothing to do but get salty about it.

A pvp issue is not a community wide issue no matter what argument ye throw at it...getting salty and throwing insults around is counter productive and merely makes it worse...always has and always will. But then most of the bitterness and salt seems to come from one direction and it stems from the fact that they cannot force anyone to play with them.

And thats why the pvp community will never have an effective counter argument...surely ye knew this would happen frentox...yer no wet behind the ears noob and this is not a community wide issue regardless what anyone would like to think it is. Its a pvp issue...means less than nothing to someone like me who just cant be bothered, but the salt and the flame wars...well they pass the time. Justified when I think back to the salt that put me into solo mode fer two years solid...after that, ye think Im gonna go easy on ye? Haha...if ye do then oh dear.

Ignore the forum and the game...wont make much difference to me personally although I did enjoy some of yer posts. In fact, nothing anyone does in this game bothers me in the slightest...I literally do not care and quite frankly, why should I? Why should I care that players who play a very different game arent having fun? Ye think it would bother me if they all quit? Ye know what would change in my game? Absolutely nothing...so once more frentox...why should we care when we dont have anything to lose?

We all end up saying the same thing, Yet there is no counter argument because people out right refuse to see it. Trust me its there.
 
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My take-away from this thread: why wouldn't other players want to blow you guys up whenever or wherever they could find you? I know that I sure do. And, a little dose of irony: it's exactly this attitude so often displayed on the forum that got me into that in the first place.



Hahahaha!

Exactly.
KOS makes more sense the more time I spend reading here.
 
That's not going to change anything as the fundamental reason of the gulf tween between pvpers and pvers isn't about "gear".

Thing is, it's not about "effort" either.

There are certainly a lot of players who might not be great at combat but they've forgotten more than I will ever know about mining, trading or exploring.

The problem is, there's only one activity in ED where one player can inflict themselves on other players and if you're not interested in that aspect of gameplay then you're always likely to come out 2nd-best.

That being the case, any attempt to expand the role of combat within the game, without providing any proportional balances, is only ever going to lead to more and more people getting less and less enjoyment from the game.

Things like the Thargoid USS's are a (very basic) step in the right direction, IMO.
They provide an encounter where combat requirements are elevated but which can be avoided if preferred.
That's the sort of thing that needs developing IMO.

Give us orbital locations and surface bases (and mysterious things) which present an elevated combat challenge, and a worthy reward for success, but which can be avoided by those who don't wish to have anything to do with combat.
 
My take-away from this thread: why wouldn't other players want to blow you guys up whenever or wherever they could find you? I know that I sure do. And, a little dose of irony: it's exactly this attitude so often displayed on the forum that got me into that in the first place.

Because most people aren't vindictive nobbers?
 
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The sad thing is you're not wrong. That is the way it seems. That's the perception. Hell, even the mission givers say as much when they're asking you to massacre ships. "Look for your targets in a RES."

Not, "Here are the coordinates of a recently observed convoy." Just "Go to the spawn point and wait for the rats."

This game was supposed to be so much more.

As for the PVP/PVE thing, I was searching the forum archives for specific posts I made back in the mists of time, just to see how little has changed. I couldn't find the specific posts but I did find a few threads discussing the PVP/PVE dichotomy and the dreaded "g" word, how it fit with what little information we had on the game's design, and what FD could build into that design to preemptively mitigate some of the issues. One of my posts in one thread was from March 2013. Yes, five years ago and 21 months before the game's launch we were having the exact same conversations.

The sad thing is that if you dig through the Design Proposals and some of the discussions that emerged from them, ED in its 2013/2014 design phase remains one of the best attempts at creating a game that could have balanced PVP and PVE elements without the need for flags or PVE-only servers or any of the other divisive baggage that normally comes with multiplayer MMOs. The unusually large nature of the simulated galaxy worked in the game's favour, and the design elements that were proposed to be built atop it used that to their advantage. Sure, it was never going to be perfect and there would always have been attempts to game the game rather than play the game, but FD sure were holding a lot of good cards. It looked very promising indeed.

And then they launched too soon. Despite all the warnings. Despite the reaction to the enforced-PVP of early beta. They launched too soon with a barebones product and an effectively nonexistent criminality system that's only now, three and a half years later, being addressed. Hell, in a game in which fear of non-consensual or asymmetric PVP had been largely downplayed because "players won't have reason to congregate in the same places" what did FD do at launch? They reduced the "random" start positions to a slack handful of systems and introduced Community Goals. [where is it]

They had the opportunity to develop and to present at launch what could have been, might have been, the most balanced PVP/PVE experience yet available in an MMO-like. But they fumbled. They dropped the ball. And I'm not sure that's a fumble from which it's possible to recover any more. Too many players and groups of players have entrenched their interactions with the game into one or more playing styles that are fundamentally incompatible, and which risk being disrupted if any attempt is made to drag some elements back in the direction that the Proposals outlined. You only have to look at the backlash against the new C&P to see how near impossible the task would be without royally annoying one or more groups of players. And I don't mean "you changed Engineers" annoying. I mean "this is no longer the game I paid for" annoying. I don't think FD has the nerve for that sort of fight any more.

Thank God for the modes. They may not have been intended to be the ultimate PVP/PVE filter, but they needed to be. They've effectively saved this game from its own shortcomings on multiple occasions. Because while there are vocal players who hate that the modes are there, and even a few who may have abandoned ED because of the frustrations caused by them, I guarantee their number is nothing compared with the multiple exoduses the game would have seen if they weren't.

BTW Frenotx, one of my posts from yesteryear that I was looking for dealt with the possibility of basing NPC behaviour in Group and Solo modes on player activity in Group and Open. As long as a sensible C&P system was in place and limiting criminal behaviour to low security and lawless systems (I told you this was pre-launch!) I thought this made a lot of sense. So if unusually powerful player aggressors were for some reason -- even an out-of-lore reason -- attacking lots of ships in a particular system, similarly powerful NPC aggressors (or larger numbers of weaker ones) could be spawned in those same systems in modes or instances where the players weren't present. Player agency would be used to influence the "threat level" of the galaxy as a whole, regardless of mode. The modes would effectively be filters for interactivity types, but there'd be no "easy mode."

You can imagine how popular that was. Many PVPers hated the idea of only being able to shoot other players in the face by proxy as it were, while many PVErs couldn't stomach the idea of another player or players being able to influence how difficult their game was. Even if they could avoid it by flying somewhere else.

It's just not possible to square the circle on this one. It might have been, had the right things been implemented from day one. But they weren't, and now I fear we're always going to have this situation. Even for players who switch between PVP and PVE activities, ED is effectively two different games.

In this whole sea of mess. Its still fixable. Have faith. Everyone can come out winner here. They arent giving up on the game. Neither should we. No matter what side of the fence we are on.

Truth is we are all on the same side. Carebears and Psychopaths are all in this for one goal at this point. We want Elite to Succeed. Or none of us would be here complaining about it.
 
.why should we care when we dont have anything to lose?

It just betrays an intensely selfish mindset "It doesn't affect me, so why should i care". Well why come to a public forum discussing topics that don't affect you? You obviously DO care. Maybe by "community wide problem" he meant the mature community who don't take every expression of dissatisfaction with the game as a personal attack against their relationship with the game, like you are doing right now. Just because I choose to trade doesn't mean i don't want say, "The Bounty Hunters" to also have fun.. Why be part of any online discussion community at all, if only your experiences matter? The main thing you "lose" when you say brain-dead garbage like this, is credibility and dignity.
 
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Give us orbital locations and surface bases (and mysterious things) which present an elevated combat challenge, and a worthy reward for success, but which can be avoided by those who don't wish to have anything to do with combat.

There is one mode that could solve all our problems. I saw it first time many years ago but still think it's great.

The game should have only one mode.

PvP is disabled everywhere except dedicated systems/places/uss's, clearly marked as such. Spread it all around, make at least several PvP USS's in every system. Entice people with a lot of Grade 5 mats in there, whatever. So whoever wants to fight other people - voila, drop into one and knock yourself out. Outside of it, it's hardcoded Mobius behavior.

Everyone would have what they want except the gankers.
 
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"having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge."?

What revenge?
Blowing up someone who acts "unreasonably" isn't about revenge.
It's just and funny!
You seem to have missed the "unreasoning" part :rolleyes:
synonyms:vengeful, out for revenge, revengeful, avenging, unforgiving, grudge-bearing, resentful, ill-disposed, implacable, unrelenting, acrimonious, bitter; Morespiteful, mean, mean-spirited, rancorous, venomous, poisonous, malicious, malevolent, malignant, malign, evil, evil-intentioned, nasty, cruel, unkind, ill-natured, baleful;
informalcatty, y;
literarymalefic, maleficent


 
The game should have only one mode.

PvP is disabled everywhere except dedicated systems/places/uss's, clearly marked as such. Spread it all around, make at least several PvP USS's in every system. Entice people with a lot of Grade 5 mats in there, whatever. So whoever wants to fight other people - voila, drop into one and knock yourself out. Outside of it, it's Mobius behavior.

Everyone would have what they want except the gankers.

The wacky thing is, that probably wouldn't make any difference to at least 80% of the player-base, who simply never indulge in PvP ever.

About the only problem would be for the sub-group of people who do indulge in combat-related stuff on an RP basis.
it'd be a bit of a PITA if you were, say, a bounty-hunter or involved in PP and you couldn't attack your targets unless they entered a designated "PvP zone".

Perhaps they could make PP-contested systems into "PvP zones" but the problem there is the more of those "zones" you have, the more places gankers have to find their targets.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Quite frankly, I did so for Offline (as promised) but that's how it is...

Offline was added to the scope well after the initial pitch (the one that contains all three game modes....) and was sadly cancelled before launch.

Solo, on the other hand, has been in the published game design for just as long as Private Groups and Open (the "All Group" from KS days) - and was released as part of the game.

Given Frontier's experiences over the cancellation of Offline mode, I doubt that they'd like a recurrence of that kind of backlash.
 
"having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge."?

What revenge?
Blowing up someone who acts "unreasonably" isn't about revenge.
It's just and funny!

I dunno about that.

Deciding to go and hassle somebody in-game because they said something you don't like on the forum doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
 
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Offline was added to the scope well after the initial pitch (the one that contains all three game modes....) and was sadly cancelled before launch.

Solo, on the other hand, has been in the published game design for just as long as Private Groups and Open (the "All Group" from KS days) - and was released as part of the game.

Given Frontier's experiences over the cancellation of Offline mode, I doubt that they'd like a recurrence of that kind of backlash.

No matter what happens. It cant stay the way it is now. Something gotta give. I think most of the people can agree on that right?
 
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