If Elite: Dangerous is a grind fest, does that mean it's for old people?

Thanks for the clarification. I too dislike the grind wall but a pay wall would be even worse.

No, your argument calls for the reduction of the grind wall. Make it so the grind is for cosmetic items only or, at worst, very marginal improvements. And it is worth pointing out that it is only grind if you don't enjoy doing it.
 
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Initial "pay to win" is arguably already in Elite: Dangerous. The Horizons DLC hides the Engineers.

Back when stuff like Horizons was available on discs like original games, this sort of thing was called an "expansion," and nobody considered it "pay to win." I think referring to it as such is misleading and inapplicable.
 
Back when stuff like Horizons was available on discs like original games, this sort of thing was called an "expansion," and nobody considered it "pay to win." I think referring to it as such is misleading and inapplicable.

So you're saying that you don't need Engineers to compete on equal footing in Open/PvP mode? Wow. You must be a PvP God.

Father, is that you?...
 
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P2W would be when there was an option to buy engineer upgrades with MTXs. It's kinda funny, because the system is kinda designed like wasting the time of people so they become disgruntled and pushed to pay for the shortcut. It's MTX-style grind, but without the MTX.
 
The issue is most games focus entirely on one of these things.

Keorean asian grinder? yeah there it is, you need time and skill or money, money buys it all. most mehanics are so bad even grandpa can do them if he spent enough money on the "I win market"

I am at the stage where I do have money, still spent plenty of time in gaming and still have decent, ye nto top skills.

MONEY should never be the requirement for things to achieve in a game. that counters the entire point of a game. Time, should always be a reaosnable factor, espcially in PvP games, Worst experience was Dragons prohpet where your chars strength was mostly done by stupid gems added to the equipment and youc ould farm them endlessly in a dungeon leading to people grinding those first 5minutes in the dungeon for 100's or times each day. This even as someoen with time, has nothign to do with gaming at all, ot's broken stupid nonsense.
Skill, well, yes skill should be rewarded but skill is a mix of things which includes experience, and that also comes with time spent. In PvE games rewarding skill is fine, in PvP games, it can get very problematic for the game itself, esepcially when you as a company need to run servers. Because you need to make sure everyone still has a good gaming experience otherwise people leave your game and don't pay development and servers anymore. Thats why games like CS leave running servers to their customers, this entirely removs the issues of having to care about finding proper matchups, because matchmaking is a huge issues, especially when the playerbase is not that big. Look at starcraft, it has one of the most cometitive scene and ye hardly anyone complains about it, because beign competitive is sololy about skill, yet everyone else just plays the pve part if he isn't competitive enough. But when you make people able to meet each other, and skill, or worse, skill meets time consuming equipment requirements, the top area of the game exclusively is reserved for the first kind of people of the above picture. But a running buisness relying on people without money? Thats not a good buisness model when you require steady further income.

WoW, is the prime example how it works in total, you got all the PVP and PVE content in one game, you got the high competitive No Lifers grind parts oin both PvE and PvP. BUT it has the playerbase to make each part work, even for those not having much time and skill, becauise they find plenty of fun and progression by simply playing the quest and lower dungeons. And doing this, makis covering all areas, so there is a steady income of money from all the players. And since all skills have a global cooldown of 1sec even the somewhat older lower reaction time poeple can still properly participate on it.

Ed suffers from a lot grind that hides content and competition behind said grind. And only of the grind is done can you start learning most of the skill based related things (becauase engineers really change so much about he game that it plays mich different). So ED caters a very minor part of it's playerbase when it comes to PvP. And the PvE grindy side bores people out too quickly. Either because nothing intereting or new is left to be done, or to unlock it you have to do the same like an endless amount of times. What ED needs is find a proper PvE content thats not repetitive and boring to make sure people are entertained at whatever stage of progression they are.
 
I'm closer to 60 than 50 but in truth ED is no more grindy than some of the games I played 25 years ago when I first started out with an Amiga A600 (FE2 - yay!).

If you analyse any activity in life you can regard it as grindy. Spending 3 hours cooking a meal which is gone in 3 minutes could be regarded as a grind. Months building a model railway (too pricey these days) to run a train round a 12 x 8 oval of track was a grind. Decorating the stairs and landing - total grind.

But if the end result is worth it, then why not?!
 
I'm closer to 60 than 50 but in truth ED is no more grindy than some of the games I played 25 years ago when I first started out with an Amiga A600 (FE2 - yay!).

If you analyse any activity in life you can regard it as grindy. Spending 3 hours cooking a meal which is gone in 3 minutes could be regarded as a grind. Months building a model railway (too pricey these days) to run a train round a 12 x 8 oval of track was a grind. Decorating the stairs and landing - total grind.

But if the end result is worth it, then why not?!

grinding cooking? well why do you think so many go to fast food? not many complain about food, because there is lots of shortcuts, may it be just the oven ready pizza, or other meals. yet for those who have fun in cooking, and know how to properly cook, it's fun, especially since they don't cook the same every day.

it's not only about the worth of the outcome, it's also about the fun during the griind. But the bald mechanics of ED makes it like cooking the same mel over and over every day.
 
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I'm closer to 60 than 50 but in truth ED is no more grindy than some of the games I played 25 years ago when I first started out with an Amiga A600 (FE2 - yay!).

If you analyse any activity in life you can regard it as grindy. Spending 3 hours cooking a meal which is gone in 3 minutes could be regarded as a grind. Months building a model railway (too pricey these days) to run a train round a 12 x 8 oval of track was a grind. Decorating the stairs and landing - total grind.

But if the end result is worth it, then why not?!

Creative work is never grind.
 
Well actually sometimes the cooking grind can be fun, in the same way ED grind can be enjoyable - especially if you can do a bit of intermediate tasting!
 
As an old gamer i am wise enough to

- know all virtual belongings are meaningless (unless they can be sold)
- know that a grind is just a lazy game design trick
- know there are no gear prerequisites for fun

If i want to have fun i do what is fun. And if i do not get virtual goods while doing it, it doesnt matter at all.

If you are old and you still grind, you know nothing.
 

Deleted member 38366

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IMHO the grindfest is indeed just trying to deliver "content" which actually isn't any.
It's pseudo-content, primarily acting as time sinks which the publisher can sell as "in-game time" and color it positively (as it conveniently doesn't say anything about the quality of time spent).

Since ELITE is a fake pseudo-Sandbox, all it can ever present is mechanics, because that's the limitation of trying to simulate a Sandbox with Scripts. Only gets you so far. Gameplay becomes mostly mechanical in nature as a result.
1:1 Repetition baked in, variation lacks severely and surprises (emerging content) are close to become a physically impossibility due to the extreme limitations Players operate under.

With a mere handful or two of Tourist attractions (stuff Players can do/activities to engage in) and missing well over a hundred more to fill the Galaxy with more life, the Options really can't be extended.
No such tools exist, since there are no matching Tourist attractions in the Open World theme park.

When I look at ELITE and ask 100 Gameplay Questions : Can I do this?, 95 of these Questions it clearly answers with No. Not Scripted. No associated mechanics. You can't do that.

So what's left is the Grind, some number-crunching (i.e. Engineering your Ship using 3rd party Websites that contain all the required data and i.e. diminishing returns or Thruster optimal Mass formula), supporting your favorite ASCII String (Faction or Power) of choice or some PewPew (PvP).
(arguably, the BGS and to some extent PowerPlay technically represent the only existing isolated Sandbox Elements in the entire Game; albeit Frontier loves to silently intervene, deny, disrupt or override in those fields at will, negating most of the potential qualities)

Or explore 400 Billion examples of procedural nothing if that's your thing (procedural nothing, because there's nothing you could do with any 1st Discovery; even that Game stops right in its tracks were actual, deeper follow-up Gameplay could begin).

Bottom line is :
It's unquestionable that the Game offers several fields you can sink your teeth into. Plenty of choices to kill some time, as much as you want.
Although it carries consequences (limitations), one can always opt-out of the Grind(tm), it just takes an open eye & some discipline to recognize it as such and then act accordingly.
 
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As an old gamer i am wise enough to

- know all virtual belongings are meaningless (unless they can be sold)
- know that a grind is just a lazy game design trick
- know there are no gear prerequisites for fun

If i want to have fun i do what is fun. And if i do not get virtual goods while doing it, it doesnt matter at all.

If you are old and you still grind, you know nothing.

I must be getting old.

Having plenty of fun just doing things in ED.

Sure game points me at some things I need to do to access something... but on whole these have been fun in their own right. Only one that stood out as a bit pointless was wake scans... but at least it showed me the wake scan mechanic and also I found out how to find distribution centres to farm them. So as worst bit of grinds go... wasnt so bad.

Was able to get the things I wanted realtively easily just through playing.... which was a half decent combat vulture... not fully upgraded and no engineering yet... but am holding my own in combat... and an explorer DBX... only thing I have engineered is the fsd and that wasnt too much fuss.

Only exploit ive done was the fed rank missions as they did look a grind and one day I may want a corvette.

For now I dont have high ambitions of end game ships or engineering... so not really feeling the grind.

So best tip I could give any new or returning players is dont rush for stuff and the game becomes an experience and fun to play rather than a grind.
 
I think that the diagram is not representative of anything more than a stereotype. I'm mostly likely in the "old" slot, but I have neither time nor money and my skill is, well, questionable.

I don't find the game "grindy" and never have. Because if I do the same thing more than once and it isn't fun, I do something else.

The people who treat Elite like a sprint to the finish, rather than a hiking holiday are going to be the ones most disappointed when there is no ticker-tape finish. There is no end-game and no end-ship, but some people just refuse to believe it.

Does age have anything to do with it? I have no idea. Could it be temperament? Experience? Again I'm not a psychologist; no idea.

All I can do is speak for myself. If mining gets dull, I take my race-engined Imperial Eagle for some canyon runs (VR fun). When I've done the third (or was it fifth?) trade run for a CG and can't remember which station I just docked at, I get into my Corvette and do the combat CG instead. Keep doing something different. 2,500+ hours and counting.
 
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Creative work is never grind.

As someone who have produced creative works from ground up I will dully disagree. In fact, that's biggest challenge of an artist, especially if he flies solo - grind trough all stages, and never lose soul or sight of what you want to achieve. That's why recording of song can take 10 hours total, but 6 weeks in schedule timeframe.
 
Creative work is never grind.

Depends on your attitude towards it. I know plenty of people who consider cooking meals 'a chore', or something they do not enjoy, but which consumes their time; hence a grind.

'Grind' is a frankly rubbish and subjective term that pretends to be objective. One man's grind is another man's fun and vice versa. Nobody is right. The only 'wrong' people are the ones dumb as rocks who are not enjoying themselves by performing a leisure activity *but do it anyway*. The only thing dumber would to then spend hours complaining about it on forums...
 
So you're saying that you don't need Engineers to compete on equal footing in Open/PvP mode? Wow. You must be a PvP God.

Father, is that you?...

I'm saying there's a very non-trivial difference between something that expands the scope of an entire game (expansion) and something like special weapons or ships or item packs that give a player advantage over those who don't buy them, that are only available via purchase as a microtransaction (pay to win DLC). Star Trek Online is a good example of the latter - some of the fanciest ships in the game are only available through their store.
 
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