PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

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Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
The modes need to remain equal to prevent players who play the game as intended, with no menu-logging or 17-Draconis exploit-billions, from having to compete with those pvp players who regularly exploit the game so money has no meaning.

This way they don't get to use their exploited billions to ignore the consequences, such as ship loss, which the other honest player would face.

To keep it fair, keep it the same.[up]
 

Maka Gucci

Maka Gucci
Wolf Starslayer said:
The modes need to remain equal to prevent players who play the game as intended, with no menu-logging or 17-Draconis exploit-billions, from having to compete with those pvp players who regularly exploit the game so money has no meaning.

This way they don't get to use their exploited billions to ignore the consequences, such as ship loss, which the other honest player would face.

To keep it fair, keep it the same.[up]
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Ya house must look a mess if you paint everything with the same brush like that.
 

Roybe

Roybe
Phisto Sobanii said:
So why do they start by talking about the history of Elite? Have you watched it?

Look. If I want to convince someone of something I don’t just drop an hour long video in their lap and then brush off their legitimate inquiries.

Especially you, Riverside. ‘I might learn something.’ No, really? Wow! Never woulda thinks I’d a learn something mister!
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I am not trying to brush you off. I apologize if it came across that way. The problem is that the video does a much better job than I can explaining the issue.

I gave you the nickel version...you can't remove the BGS from players, without removing large parts of the game. Limiting access to the BGS, limits players access to the game. Your responses, showed interest...but not belief. I cannot convince you, I can only let the lead programming dev explain to you how the game is designed...and how much of the game is moved by the BGS.

In short, the modes players choice to interaction cannot be separated from the BGS....without breaking the game for the limited player.

Rather than the 'modes' must be equal, think about it as player's choice of interaction cannot be adjusted against another player's choice....because those choices are overlaid to the whole of the game....the game doesn't care who you play with...only what you change during your play...through the BGS.
 
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Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
Maka Gucci said:
Ya house must look a mess if you paint everything with the same brush like that.
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Well every pvp player I've seen comment in this forum and others all have happily admitted gaming the game and exploiting the hell out of menu-relog and money exploits like 17 Draconis.

Tell me do you also exploit? Many consider it as bad as menu-logging or worse because of the imbalance it does to the risk-reward loop and the fact that it is made meaningless by theses billions, yet these are often the same people advocating greater 'risk' for others or greater rewards for their own 'risk'.

Exploiters have done more to increase a pvp/pve rift then the modes have ever done.
 
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Renraiku

Renraiku
Wolf Starslayer said:
Well every pvp player I've seen comment in this forum and others all have happily admitted gaming the game and exploiting the hell out of menu-relog and money exploits like 17 Draconis.

Tell me do you also exploit? Many consider it as bad as menu-logging or worse because of the imbalance it does to the risk-reward loop and the fact that it is made meaningless by theses billions, yet these are often the same people advocating greater 'risk' for others or greater rewards for their own 'risk'.

Exploiters have done more to increase a pvp/pve rift then the modes have ever done.
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Every pvp player, that is an overgeneralisation. Even gaming the game is ambiguous. You can make billions without exploits.

Do you really want it all to stay the same? The system is not perfect and it can be improved, why not discuss options?

What is it you really want?

I do not exploit the game and I PvP, nor do I C-log in any form, not even for NPC's

PvE players are not squeaky clean, it stands to reason that since the majority of players are PvE then the majority of exploiters probably are too.
 
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Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
Renraiku said:
Every pvp player, that is an overgeneralisation. Even gaming the game is ambiguous. You can make billions without exploits.

Do you really want it all to stay the same? The system is not perfect and it can be improved, why not discuss options?

What is it you really want?
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What I want is for the fundamental 'modes' design to remain and not be modified to suit a vocal minority of pvp'ers. I do not want elements of the game taken away from paying customers to suit said minority and FD seem to agree.

I'm all for adding things, just not for taking away things.
 
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Renraiku

Renraiku
Wolf Starslayer said:
What I want is for the fundamental 'modes' design to remain and not be modified to suit a vocal minority of pvp'ers. I do not want elements of the game taken away from paying customers to suit said minority and FD seem to agree.

I'm all for adding things, just not for taking away things.
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I did not suggest that the modes be removed.
I agree the modes need to stay and will.
I suggested an improvement to the BgS and PP which would benefit PvP and PvE in Open as it is not perfect but i think it can be discussed and adjusted until a working improvement is found just as other suggestions have validity and should be treated the same and not dismissed out of hand.

PvP players are not witches, you don't need to burn them all at the stake for seeing something from a different point of view.
 

Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
Renraiku said:
I did not suggest that the modes be removed.
I agree the modes need to stay and will.
I suggested an improvement to the BgS and PP which would benefit PvP and PvE in Open as it is not perfect but i think it can be discussed and adjusted until a working improvement is found just as other suggestions have validity and should be treated the same and not dismissed out of hand.

PvP players are not witches, you don't need to burn them all at the stake for seeing something from a different point of view.
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This is not a point of compromise or debate, the deign of the game has already been put in place and you are asking for a fundamental reworking of that design from 'all modes are equal' to a pvp-open centric model where that is the 'favoured' mode and all others are add-ons.

Your 'improvements' to Bgs and PP all boil down to giving a bonus for open and that is the same as giving the other modes a reduction, it is taking away from their game to suit yours.

If Pvp groups are avoiding Power-play Pvp in open, that is a problem of the Pvp groups, not the modes.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Renraiku said:
PvP players are not witches, you don't need to burn them all at the stake for seeing something from a different point of view.
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Rinzler turned me into a duck!

Wolf Starslayer said:
This is not a point of compromise or debate, the deign of the game has already been put in place and you are asking for a fundamental reworking of that design from 'all modes are equal' to a pvp-open centric model where that is the 'favoured' mode and all others are add-ons.

Your 'improvements' to Bgs and PP all boil down to giving a bonus for open and that is the same as giving the other modes a reduction, it is taking away from their game to suit yours.

If Pvp groups are avoiding Power-play Pvp in open, that is a problem of the Pvp groups, not the modes.
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With regards to the BGS, its interesting some want a bonus to PvE activities because they are PvPers playing in Open...
 

Renraiku

Renraiku
Wolf Starslayer said:
This is not a point of compromise or debate, the deign of the game has already been put in place and you are asking for a fundamental reworking of that design from 'all modes are equal' to a pvp-open centric model where that is the 'favoured' mode and all others are add-ons.

Your 'improvements' to Bgs and PP all boil down to giving a bonus for open and that is the same as giving the other modes a reduction, it is taking away from their game to suit yours.

If Pvp groups are avoiding Power-play Pvp in open, that is a problem of the Pvp groups, not the modes.
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See now this is where our points of view differ.

The BGS is great don't get me wrong there, it allows ALL players to influence the system in a meaningful way, very cool, however it is not perfect because there are at least two schools of players here, PvE and PvP.

This is how I perceive the discrepancy in fairness with the system.

PvP players engage in PvP combat to influence the BGS. I call this the PvP component of the BGS (PvPC for easy reference) which is utilised in conjunction with the PvE component of the BgS (PvEC), PvP players will engage in combat with other players in order to hinder influence gains by the opposing faction. Attempting to stop trade, data, UA drops and such also removing players from CZ's, SC, Nav's and Rez's etc, since all of these activities are components of the BGS they are all able to be affected by the PvPC.

PvE players will Solely engage in the PvEC and if doing so in PG or Solo will never be subjected to the PvPC, ensuring that there influence gains will be static with no fluctuation due to limiting themselves to a reduced portion of the Full BGS Mechanics.

I believe this is where things need to be altered. I put forward one suggestion to maybe assist in making this more fair, it may not work but I am at least attempting to find a solution to the problem.

I will touch on PP later. I am due elsewhere for a bit.
 

Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
Renraiku said:
See now this is where our points of view differ.

SNIP..

I believe this is where things need to be altered. I put forward one suggestion to maybe assist in making this more fair, it may not work but I am at least attempting to find a solution to the problem.

I will touch on PP later. I am due elsewhere for a bit.
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This is the fundamental disagreement, I do not agree that there is a 'problem' to solve, the modes are working as intended.
 

Wolf Starslayer

Wolf Starslayer
The 'problem' is a phantom dreamt up by those who wish to fundamentally alter the game, the game is equitable because all modes and all players of all ability levels can affect the BgS.

You don't get to stop anyone taking part.
 
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