Modes A territorial game for PvPers?

[Mohrgan]

Rejected by who exactly?

You're clearly a smart guy. Do you really think what passes for discussion around here normally makes it to Sandro or any other decision maker?

I don't.

But if we could find some idea that everyone likes, maybe they'll notice eventually.

Even if we keep it just between the posters here, Algo and 90's at least, consistently reject suggestions that don't include restrictions outside of open. There has been repeated calls for those debating in this thread to participate in another thread concerning ideas on how to include PvP more, to very little success.

Drop the idea that Solo/PG is some kind of problem, and concentrate on additional mechanics that advance PvP, and I'll be right there with you. Continue to demonize Solo/PG, and insisting that everyone should play as you do, and I will continue to point out the faults in that line of argument.

Plain and simple.

 

[Mohrgan]

Its not the same. We were a group of 30 people working together for a purpose. Yes it still NPC faction but this is as far as the game allows.

So, because thirty people get together to do it, the same effort, by one player, means less? Do you suppose I have a very different purpose because I just associated with an existing faction? I really can't see a difference.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

So, because thirty people get together to do it, the same effort, by one player, means less? Do you suppose I have a very different purpose because I just associated with an existing faction? I really can't see a difference.

If you dont consider PF to have any meaning than yeah, I can see how you can't see the issue of them being attacked and for you they are just an NPC with player name.

Probably need to step back and argue about this issue before we move on to the modes.

 

[Mohrgan]

I like that line of reasoning.

But you know that Algo and T90K only make such arguments because they're trying to draw attention to the issue, right?

I think maybe they both get a little carried away at times, but the forum wars are addictive.

I've gotten sucked in a few times myself.

We've got some good minds between us all, and if we could manage to find common ground, FDEV would eventually be forced to listen to us.

It's not like we're really arguing for vastly different things. If we were to drop the antagonism toward solo and PG, and you dropped the antagonism toward PvPers in general (I'm using "we" and "you" with broad strokes here).

I'm in. I was part of a well known PvP based Player Group for a while. (It's a long story...) My opposition to the open-only brigade, has nothing to do with PvP. It had everything to do with restricting any players ability to choose how they play. I made a personal choice to avoid PvP long before I found E|D. That decision stems from how PvP Groups can and do, affect me. Forcing me to endure that environment, and how it makes me act, any more would drive me from an activity I quite enjoy.

My idea is to reward PvP activity, between aligned Commanders. Give 'PvP-vouchers' to those that actually engage in consensual PvP. (The asymmetrical PvP as we have now doesn't have to change.). Reward the winner(s) with more vouchers than the loser(s). This would make the fight worth the effort for the vanquished, and worth the time for the victor. Let these vouchers be cashed in for Influence, either to BGS faction, or a PP Power.

Aligned players can be identified just as PP pledged players are now. Just include a way for players to pledge to a BGS faction as well. All of the rules concerning the C&P exemptions for PP should apply. Of course, only people interested in this would have to both, align with a Power or Faction, and decide to play in open. There should never be a component that forces a player to pledge, or use open.

That's all I got.

 

[Mohrgan]

If you dont consider PF to have any meaning than yeah, I can see how you can't see the issue of them being attacked and for you they are just an NPC with player name.

Probably need to step back and argue about this issue before we move on to the modes.

But, of course I do. I chose to put my in-game efforts into a Faction that has no Player Group affiliation. But, I want my efforts to be rewarded just the same. I identify with this group just as I once identified with the Player Group Associated faction I was in. It seems the same to me.

I just realize how they actually work, and I don't expect everyone to engage in the game as I do.

 

[Mouse]

You've got the right attitude for PvP, Mouse.

I get that you might have some health issues that make uncontrolled situations less than desirable.

But have you ever considered trying out the PvP hub?

It's reasonably well moderated, and if you can get past the young people mannerisms, it's a pretty cool place.

Nobody ganks, everyone fights (but you don't have to fight).

It's a good place.

https://discord.gg/HuShrr3

I actually tried, and didn't work well. Even War Thunder and World of Warships...didn't work, my brain see's the person controlling not the object. I know people make fun of the word "triggered" and all, but for some it can happen. I like being at home and being alive.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think what we can gather from this thread is that:

1) Many non-PvP oriented players resent that ED is actually a pretty decent PvP game, despite some shortcomings.

2) Both the PvP camp and the PvE camp types generally see the improvements for the other camp, but not their own.

3) Some are so wrapped up in defending their own conceptions of what the game is or should be that they can't objectively consider new ideas or ideas that run contrary to their perception.

I don't know if AA's idea is particularly great, but it isn't bad.

Given his history... I'm mildly shocked.

1) I love a bit of PvP, but in ED i think it sucks. Fortnite is a good game for PVP, because the game is designed around PvP.

2) Complete and utter tosh. Unless all those suggestions made by SDC on how to improve PvP were a figment of my imagination and same goes for PvEers making suggestions on how to improve PvE.

3) For sure, although depends on the topic as well.

And yeah, my idea is just something i threw out there, its doubtful FD would even consdier it. I've got nothing against PvPers in general or them enjoying PvP in the game. What I oppose is when someone wants to change the game to their own benefit to my detriment, which i think is a reasonable stance for anyone. To take a non-PvP oriented idea, its like when people suggest the ADS gets a limited range because some people want the challenge of triangulating remote planets outside detection range, ill oppose that as well, because its not something i want.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

I'm in. I was part of a well known PvP based Player Group for a while. (It's a long story...) My opposition to the open-only brigade, has nothing to do with PvP. It had everything to do with restricting any players ability to choose how they play. I made a personal choice to avoid PvP long before I found E|D. That decision stems from how PvP Groups can and do, affect me. Forcing me to endure that environment, and how it makes me act, any more would drive me from an activity I quite enjoy.

My idea is to reward PvP activity, between aligned Commanders. Give 'PvP-vouchers' to those that actually engage in consensual PvP. (The asymmetrical PvP as we have now doesn't have to change.). Reward the winner(s) with more vouchers than the loser(s). This would make the fight worth the effort for the vanquished, and worth the time for the victor. Let these vouchers be cashed in for Influence, either to BGS faction, or a PP Power.

Aligned players can be identified just as PP pledged players are now. Just include a way for players to pledge to a BGS faction as well. All of the rules concerning the C&P exemptions for PP should apply. Of course, only people interested in this would have to both, align with a Power or Faction, and decide to play in open. There should never be a component that forces a player to pledge, or use open.

That's all I got.

Its not bad. But those vouchers will need to be worth more so it will be worth for people to fight otherwise they will be back in their shieldless cutters in SOLO.

 

[Mouse]

Its not bad. But those vouchers will need to be worth more so it will be worth for people to fight otherwise they will be back in their shieldless cutters in SOLO.

Who's flying shieldless in Solo in cutters? You?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, and when some of us say something like "wouldn't it be cool to have some PvP buckets too?"...

All we hear is EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[haha]

Odd. In this thread are suggestions for PvP buckets. Some of them made by PvEers. I made one, so I'm sure that's true. The argument here often is to add mechanics geared towards PvP instead of changing one geared towards PvE.

Here's page 1:

So, a week or two ago in a post i mooted the possibility of some sort of PvP territorial game, where PvE has zero effect.

I still like my idea of splitting influence into civilian and military influence and using mega ships to increase military influence by show of force.

I dont pvp in this game but have done so for many years in others, but why oh why isnt/wasnt powerplay made for pvp, as in if you want thsi sector your going to have to fight for it.

PP is what the "territorial game for PvPers" really should have been, however- it's not likely to drastically change in the way that some want it to.

You contributed too by the way, but all I heard was EEEE etc etc

You ever fix that moderate nat issue you had, Mr. Logic?

So ... when some of us make PvP bucket proposals all we hear is from you guys.

The PvP SVU also made an appearance.

So basically, what PP was meant to be before it got assaulted by the "how dare PvP be allowed content11!" crowd.

So I take it the PvP SVU has a new recruit.

 

[Jockey79]

Who's flying shieldless in Solo in cutters? You?

It cracks me up, they accuse PvE players of making up monsters to scare people away from Open (despite the fact they provide their own videos of doing exactly what we've said they do).
Yet they make up some fictional shieldless ship is running the whole game from Solo.

I bet they spend more time doing that than anyone, because I never leave home without shields.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Who's flying shieldless in Solo in cutters? You?

Maybe look around you once in a while.

Even during the PA CG I saw streamers flying shieldless condas and cutters to maximise profits.

Hard to see facts if all you are doing is hanging out here.

 

[Kyokushin]

BGS is PvP.

You are doing an actions which may affect a faction or players which your considered as enemy. Its pure definition of PvP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
Unfortunately you can be countered only by grind in that case.

If you want to block someone station - you will. Nobody can stop You.
If you want to raise or lower some faction influence level - You can, nobody can stop You.

Only what can be done is to grind and fix a station or grind and raise or lower different faction influence.

 

[Mohrgan]

Shieldless traders are the boogie-man now? Instead of moving forward with some sort of ideas, we get bogged down with someone's pet peeve. It's ok for peeps to transfer ships with basically no FDS to maximize pew pew, but we shudder at the thought that someone may risk trading without shields? What if those shieldless guys have max engineered their ships for escape? Aren't they just as safe as having hardened shields? Wouldn't that kind of build be just as valid as any other?

Let's worry about how to advance the cause of meaningful PvP, and stop vilifying players for how they get about it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

BGS is PvP.

You are doing an actions which may affect a faction or players which your considered as enemy. Its pure definition of PvP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
Unfortunately you can be countered only by grind in that case.

Yet the game, as designed, pitched, funded, developed and released, offers each and every player the opportunity to choose whether to engage in direct PvP (even if the BGS, PowerPlay, CGs, etc. can constitute indirect PvP).

 

[Kyokushin]

Yet the game, as designed, pitched, funded, developed and released, offers each and every player the opportunity to choose whether to engage in direct PvP (even if the BGS, PowerPlay, CGs, etc. can constitute indirect PvP).

Unfortunately:
If you want to block someone station - you will. Nobody can stop You.
If you want to raise or lower some faction influence level - You can, nobody can stop You.

Only what can be done is to grind and fix a station or grind and raise or lower different faction influence.

You cannot directly stop someone destroying your influence or station.

These things are just poorly designed.

It result even not from instancing, but from how group/solo modes are designed. They should not influe bgs imo, but thats a subject for different debate i think

 

[Mohrgan]

BGS is PvP.

You are doing an actions which may affect a faction or players which your considered as enemy. Its pure definition of PvP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
Unfortunately you can be countered only by grind in that case.

When the only way to attack a faction is through PvE buckets, then it is perfectly reasonable that the only defense is through PvE buckets. If you read your supplied definition, you'd see the distinction I mention. By the way, even those factions associated with a Player Group are just PvE elements. They act and respond to input exactly the same as a non-associated faction.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Shieldless traders are the boogie-man now? Instead of moving forward with some sort of ideas, we get bogged down with someone's pet peeve. It's ok for peeps to transfer ships with basically no FDS to maximize pew pew, but we shudder at the thought that someone may risk trading without shields? What if those shieldless guys have max engineered their ships for escape? Aren't they just as safe as having hardened shields? Wouldn't that kind of build be just as valid as any other?

I have seen combat builds without any cargo space, or adequate FSD range. How dare they!

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Shieldless traders are the boogie-man now? Instead of moving forward with some sort of ideas, we get bogged down with someone's pet peeve. It's ok for peeps to transfer ships with basically no FDS to maximize pew pew, but we shudder at the thought that someone may risk trading without shields? What if those shieldless guys have max engineered their ships for escape? Aren't they just as safe as having hardened shields? Wouldn't that kind of build be just as valid as any other?

Let's worry about how to advance the cause of meaningful PvP, and stop vilifying players for how they get about it.

Explain what did they engineer to escape when running shieldless?

I can kill a shieldless min maxed for-profit conda in seconds.

I have seen combat builds without any cargo space, or adequate FSD range. How dare they!

They are not in danger by anyone, they can fly in OPEN without getting killed with their min maxed build.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

They are not in danger by anyone, they can fly in OPEN without getting killed with their min maxed build.

Ah. So min maxing is ok when you do it.