Engineers post 3.0 - didn't feel grindy. Well done FDEV!

[-VR- Max Factor]

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This is getting exhausting. Which part of NPC is too hard for you? Read my posting again, then please explain what is incomprehensible.
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I am speaking of NPCs. I have a clue what i am talking about. I am well aware that there are NPCs which can soak up a lot of damage. All of that is mentioned in my previous postings. I am sorry if that was incomprehensible, i thought i was clear that i understand the effect. But i also dare to tell you that you are wrong in your thought, that this is because of engineering effects.
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All the "tanks like a god" NPCs rely on shield cell banks. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but i still believe that shield cell banks existed even before 2.1 and everybody, even somebody without having bought Horizon, can equip them. As you seem to doubt what i write, please confirm: are shield cell batteries available without engineers? (Y/N)
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What actually was changed a while ago is how NPCs do -use- SCBs.

Formerly they triggered them much later, which allowed players to burst through them. (That's before mentioning that NPCs in old times often did easily exploitable "wide evasion" maneuvers when triggering SCBs, which made it even easier to keep firing on them and bursting through the SCBs. )
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This and some other AI changes (e.g. NPCs showing a reaction to using thrusters even before you yourself notice any significant movement, removal of some maneuvers which made NPCs very easy targets, giving NPCs access to the reverski maneuver, etc. ) indeed made them harder to crack. And indeed people keep compensating for that by having highly engineered ships.
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But the fact remains: even elite NPCs don't gain a lot of defence from engineering. You can easily test this if you have just very basic engineer access: Fly a ship with two railguns in the setup. One of them you engineer to G1, with an upgrade which doesn't add damage. Add the feedback cascade effect to the weapon.
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Now next time you fight such an "immortal" NPC, first try to kill it with your normal weapons and the non-engineered railgun. Then, after you checked that it has the "tough shields", use the feedback cascade when the NPC uses his shield cell battery again.
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You might be surprised how easily you can melt through the same NPCs shields by just having one feedback cascade at hand. (If you can reliably hit it with a railgun, of course. ) Would the NPCs power come from high engineering, resists and the likes, adding feedback cascade would do nothing. But according to my experience, it makes hell of a difference.
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That's why i keep saying that NPCs didn't gain that much from the Engineers. It's players who fly around with +700% defence. Now as i wrote that word, i have to point out again, the is about NPCs. Really. And those usually "only" have comparatively little engineering. Sure they gain a little from it, but it doesn't matter that much.
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If you want to be angry about engineers, then take a look at the very other side: Feedback cascade. It's the counter for shield cell batteries. And it requires Engineering to be able to use it. People who use engineered weapons and carry this experimental effect can easily handle NPCs with shield cell batteries, while those who don't carry engineered railguns fall behind.
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So please: was this too complicated again or do i manage to make myself understood now?
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Pretty sure the the NPC's that do have any engineering are topped off at grade 3 as well. Not 100% sure that is correct though, I think I remember it being mentioned. And to be honest getting grade 3 shields and weapons for yourself is so easy these days, if you find the NPC's tough you really have no excuses. Just get them.

At the moment it just sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I think one of the Engineers unlock requirements is to mine so and so tonnes. No mining required for materials gathering though. That's the great thing - there is always an alternative way of getting a material if you're not OK with some other way of getting them. And worst come to worst - there are mat traders. Yes, exchange rates may be a bit too high for some, but that can be balanced if need be. To me personally the rates are nearly there. They could be slightly better for the player, but I'm fine with the way they are now - it is not affecting my game in a negative way.

Also, bear in mind that you will get A LOT of mats by just playing the game and blazing your own trail, as long as you have a collector controller or are willing to manually scoop the loot.

Thanks

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

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This is getting exhausting. Which part of NPC is too hard for you? Read my posting again, then please explain what is incomprehensible.
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I am speaking of NPCs. I have a clue what i am talking about. I am well aware that there are NPCs which can soak up a lot of damage. All of that is mentioned in my previous postings. I am sorry if that was incomprehensible, i thought i was clear that i understand the effect. But i also dare to tell you that you are wrong in your thought, that this is because of engineering effects.
.
All the "tanks like a god" NPCs rely on shield cell banks. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but i still believe that shield cell banks existed even before 2.1 and everybody, even somebody without having bought Horizon, can equip them. As you seem to doubt what i write, please confirm: are shield cell batteries available without engineers? (Y/N)
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What actually was changed a while ago is how NPCs do -use- SCBs.

Formerly they triggered them much later, which allowed players to burst through them. (That's before mentioning that NPCs in old times often did easily exploitable "wide evasion" maneuvers when triggering SCBs, which made it even easier to keep firing on them and bursting through the SCBs. )
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This and some other AI changes (e.g. NPCs showing a reaction to using thrusters even before you yourself notice any significant movement, removal of some maneuvers which made NPCs very easy targets, giving NPCs access to the reverski maneuver, etc. ) indeed made them harder to crack. And indeed people keep compensating for that by having highly engineered ships.
.
But the fact remains: even elite NPCs don't gain a lot of defence from engineering. You can easily test this if you have just very basic engineer access: Fly a ship with two railguns in the setup. One of them you engineer to G1, with an upgrade which doesn't add damage. Add the feedback cascade effect to the weapon.
.
Now next time you fight such an "immortal" NPC, first try to kill it with your normal weapons and the non-engineered railgun. Then, after you checked that it has the "tough shields", use the feedback cascade when the NPC uses his shield cell battery again.
.
You might be surprised how easily you can melt through the same NPCs shields by just having one feedback cascade at hand. (If you can reliably hit it with a railgun, of course. ) Would the NPCs power come from high engineering, resists and the likes, adding feedback cascade would do nothing. But according to my experience, it makes hell of a difference.
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That's why i keep saying that NPCs didn't gain that much from the Engineers. It's players who fly around with +700% defence. Now as i wrote that word, i have to point out again, the is about NPCs. Really. And those usually "only" have comparatively little engineering. Sure they gain a little from it, but it doesn't matter that much.
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If you want to be angry about engineers, then take a look at the very other side: Feedback cascade. It's the counter for shield cell batteries. And it requires Engineering to be able to use it. People who use engineered weapons and carry this experimental effect can easily handle NPCs with shield cell batteries, while those who don't carry engineered railguns fall behind.
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So please: was this too complicated again or do i manage to make myself understood now?
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I'm not talking about SCBs or advanced manouvers - I mean AI with toughened defense mods. I don't know anything about special effects, since I dismissed engineering after trying it out. And that was for simple level 1 stuff already back then.

Pretty sure the the NPC's that do have any engineering are topped off at grade 3 as well. Not 100% sure that is correct though, I think I remember it being mentioned. And to be honest getting grade 3 shields and weapons for yourself is so easy these days, if you find the NPC's tough you really have no excuses. Just get them.

At the moment it just sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.

So I have to grind a couple of weeks to even it out again? Why would I do that?

 

[Jex =TE=]

I fully agree there. While as you said yourself that this is off topic, that's one point where the game really is one or another decade outdated. Other games have learned how to present the story much better. In ED it just happens and doesn't seem to matter. This is something which really needs to be improved.

ED doesn't really feel that much different from FE2 in that there was no story there either. There's nothing to root you anywhere. Choosing a home system is more about it's name or how many good screenshots you can get because there's scant storyline but also missing, I think, are unique places to visit.

Watching an AO video about some other spaceship game he was playing he had "space storms". Why not add in things like this and provide a narrative for it and what's built up around it over the centuries and why the region is the way it is - do space pirates use the storm to hide and then attack from, etc, etc

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So I have to grind a couple of weeks to even it out again? Why would I do that?

Nope, no grind involved. Just play. You don't have to do engineers all in one go. That is up to you. It has taken me well over a year to get some engineered modules on my ships and most are not grade 5. If you get attacked or if you attack and you feel like you are being outclassed bug out, do a brave Sir Robin. Just like any other fight out there. Most NPC's are not engineered even the elite NPCs. Come across one, run if you can't beat it. Makes it a bit more interesting instead of the usual walkover you get.

Sounds like you are looking for excuses to no like the game and to justify the way you think. What is the harm in trying it out. Don't make it the focus of your game time, look at it as something you do from time to time.

All you need is:
Elvira Martuuk - Easy unlock
The Dweller - Easy unlock
Felicity Farseer - Easy unlock
Tod McQuinn - Easy unlock
Liz Ryder - Easy Unlock

If you have been playing the game you probably have a load of materials already to upgrade your modules with. If you want an uber ship then yes you will need to unlock them all, but you do not need an uber ship against NPC's.
After all this time I have not unlocked them all as I see no point to unlock them all.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Nope, no grind involved. Just play. You don't have to do engineers all in one go. That is up to you. It has taken me well over a year to get some engineered modules on my ships and most are not grade 5. If you get attacked or if you attack and you feel like you are being outclassed bug out. Just like any other fight out there. Most NPC's are not engineered even the elite NPCs. Come accross one, run, if you can't beat it. Makes it a bit more interesting instead of the usual walkover you get.

I found it just too annoying, especially the randomness - I'd fight them for like 10 mins and then wonder what was wrong. Yes, I turned pretty much to run from NPCs.

 

[rootsrat]

I found it just too annoying, especially the randomness - I'd fight them for like 10 mins and then wonder what was wrong. Yes, I turned pretty much to run from NPCs.

This is a bad thing?

To me the possibility that an NPC ship can decimate my ship is a good thing. It adds realism and variety to the game. Wouldn't you find it more boring if you could just steamroll over every single NPC out there?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

This is a bad thing?

To me the possibility that an NPC ship can decimate my ship is a good thing. It adds realism and variety to the game. Wouldn't you find it more boring if you could just steamroll over every single NPC out there?

They aren't decimating. Well in CZ perhaps. They are just random NPCs with defence buffs and I usually only find out after wasting a lot of time with them. They'd probably be able to decimate me in my D rated Python, but once I encountered them I never stuck around any larger NPC ships when flying the Python anymore.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

They aren't decimating. Well in CZ perhaps. They are just random NPCs with defence buffs and I usually only find out after wasting a lot of time with them. They'd probably be able to decimate me in my D rated Python, but once I encountered them I never stuck around any larger NPC ships when flying the Python anymore.

I could probably take out a D rated python in my A rated Eagle or Cobra. You should run in those circumstances. I think you have been hit with the better AI issue. The fact that they use SCB's properly now and better loadouts with shield boosters. They will be tougher to kill.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I could probably take out a D rated python in my A rated Eagle or Cobra. You should run in those circumstances. I think you have been hit with the better AI issue. The fact that they use SCB's properly now and better loadouts with shield boosters. They will be tougher to kill.

It's definitely not SCBs. The worst case was my FAS vs AI FdL. I could gun down shields reasonable enough but the hull was just insane. I literally ended up ramming it to death, recounted my repairs, played with the Python and stayed away from fight, then counted all the running away and came to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me anymore.

 

[Jex =TE=]

They aren't decimating. Well in CZ perhaps. They are just random NPCs with defence buffs and I usually only find out after wasting a lot of time with them. They'd probably be able to decimate me in my D rated Python, but once I encountered them I never stuck around any larger NPC ships when flying the Python anymore.

The last time I went into a CZ which was maybe a year ago was in an A rated Viper and I could have closed my eyes and almost been ok. Have they changed since then?

 

[rootsrat]

The last time I went into a CZ which was maybe a year ago was in an A rated Viper and I could have closed my eyes and almost been ok. Have they changed since then?

High Intensity ones can be a challenge sometimes if you're alone, for me at least. I didn't try my newly re-engineered Conda at CZ's yet though, any my weapons were not modded in a very efficient way before I redo it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's definitely not SCBs. The worst case was my FAS vs AI FdL. I could gun down shields reasonable enough but the hull was just insane. I literally ended up ramming it to death, recounted my repairs, played with the Python and stayed away from fight, then counted all the running away and came to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me anymore.

This could be all about weapon setup. Hell I had no issues with my then unengineered Vulture against Corvettes, Anacondas, FDLs etc. Has some now but again, very little.

 

[Thatchinho]

I agree mostly. The story in ED is actually quite interesting if you dive into it, but the presentation is just plain terrible. 10 lines of flavour text in CG description and a Galnet article once or twice a week is not engaging storytelling at all, whatsoever. And don't event get me started on YouTube story videos. YOUTUBE, REALLY?

It's really sad, because this game has a massive and excellent lore that you can just take and take from, tying it to the ongoing events, but Elite fails BIG TIME when it comes to this aspect. We have alien species attacking the humanity for Braben's sake! An old enemy resurfaced! Nightmares of the past are awaken! But the life in the Bubble just goes on and nobody seems to care. There is no risk, there is no fear, there is no nothing at all, apart from a bunch of Non Human USS.

I'm fine with role play, I get it, I enjoy it, but I would like more substance, reasons, background and more dynamic storyline in game. My imagination can fill the holes, no issues here, but currently there are no holes. There is one massive, bottomless pit of a non-story.

This aspect of ED is extremely disappointing to me and apart from a simple burnout, that was the main reason I've had a 6 months break after the Thargoids started the, erm, "invasion".

Anyway, we're in the offtopic territory now, it's dangerous out here, so better get back on track

Sorry to continue the OT, but there's a lot of this there's answers for. Happy to go into more detail.

 

[Alec Turner]

That's a nice bar. I would prefer to chat about it over a pint of cider.

Do you work for Sagittarius Eye by any chance? In all seriousness I will be at the Euston Cider Tap next Tuesday around 6pm meeting one of their guys so by all means come along and play "spot the ED nerds"!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree mostly. The story in ED is actually quite interesting if you dive into it, but the presentation is just plain terrible. 10 lines of flavour text in CG description and a Galnet article once or twice a week is not engaging storytelling at all, whatsoever. And don't event get me started on YouTube story videos. YOUTUBE, REALLY?

It's really sad, because this game has a massive and excellent lore that you can just take and take from, tying it to the ongoing events, but Elite fails BIG TIME when it comes to this aspect. We have alien species attacking the humanity for Braben's sake! An old enemy resurfaced! Nightmares of the past are awaken! But the life in the Bubble just goes on and nobody seems to care. There is no risk, there is no fear, there is no nothing at all, apart from a bunch of Non Human USS.

I'm fine with role play, I get it, I enjoy it, but I would like more substance, reasons, background and more dynamic storyline in game. My imagination can fill the holes, no issues here, but currently there are no holes. There is one massive, bottomless pit of a non-story.

This aspect of ED is extremely disappointing to me and apart from a simple burnout, that was the main reason I've had a 6 months break after the Thargoids started the, erm, "invasion".

Anyway, we're in the offtopic territory now, it's dangerous out here, so better get back on track

Yep. The game is desperate for this kind of stuff. I've always said that the depth is there within the BGS, but there is no visual representation of that depth and I don't mean bar charts. I mean the way the stations look, the types of ships there are, what happens in a station and the ships around it in plague or famine states.

It wouldn't take much to give the game the illusion of depth (it's all illusion in the end). Which would give us more reasons to do missions, basically give the game some soul.
I don't like the fact that when I go into a system that is at war it feels no different to when I am in a system in a boom state.

Do you work for Sagittarius Eye by any chance? In all seriousness I will be at the Euston Cider Tap next Tuesday around 6pm meeting one of their guys so by all means come along and play "spot the ED nerds"!

I would do, but these days I live in sunny Margate. If I was still working in London then I would certainly come along. Oh and no I don't work for Sagittarius Eye. I wouldn't mind though. I have done some magazine design in my previous job.

 

[Thatchinho]

ED doesn't really feel that much different from FE2 in that there was no story there either. There's nothing to root you anywhere. Choosing a home system is more about it's name or how many good screenshots you can get because there's scant storyline but also missing, I think, are unique places to visit.

Watching an AO video about some other spaceship game he was playing he had "space storms". Why not add in things like this and provide a narrative for it and what's built up around it over the centuries and why the region is the way it is - do space pirates use the storm to hide and then attack from, etc, etc

My experience of FE2 was the same. And ultimately my play pretty much boiled down to building up to bigger and bigger ships , eventually getting the Panther clipper and then basically stopping the game. It didn't help that I didn't enjoy the combat flight model at all compared to Elite.

All I can say about ED is that it has been vastly different to FE2 for me.

On the second part, I have always wanted there to be a bit more of odd goings on out in the black but I look at it through the filter of where the game is in development and my realistic expectations are based around that, and hence I don't get overly disappointed that that kind of stuff isn't really there as yet. Personally I still hold some hope that there will be some more layers to the Formidine Rift then what has currently come out. Not sure how likely the latter part is after Drew W stopped his involvement though.

Anyway, with FD focusing on this type of area for Beyond Q4 (Chapter 4?), things are starting to look up on that front IMHO.

 

[Sylow]

It's definitely not SCBs. The worst case was my FAS vs AI FdL. I could gun down shields reasonable enough but the hull was just insane. I literally ended up ramming it to death, recounted my repairs, played with the Python and stayed away from fight, then counted all the running away and came to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me anymore.

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Oki, this is more curious. For while i am aware that enemies got much tougher when they have SCBs, i personally haven't experienced a significant improvement of NPC survivability when shields are down before they learned to do power settings.
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Of course this might be related to my preference of the Courier. Its somehwat limited firepower means that shields matter more for me, while i usually kill bigger targets by going for the power plant. That means that my targets usually blow up before even getting to single digits on the hull. (And the changes to NPC power management means that higher rated NPCs now don't shut down and wait to have the PP blown up any more. That's the actual reason why NPCs now take me a bit longer to kill: they keep moving with the PP at zero percent, which makes it much harder to trigger a PP explosion. )
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With that out of the way, it's much easier to upgrade shield survivability than hull survivability by engineering. For shields a number of factors just multiply up, so if NPCs would use highly engineered shields, the forum would be in a rage about it. (Give NPCs similar shields as some players run, and we PvE players would also start synthing ammo in combat, as you couldn't carry enough ammo for even a single kill any more. And this is not as much an overexageration as you might think. )
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For hull survivability, you need better armour and more hull reinforcement packages. Armour choices always were available for NPC, and I think it was 2.2 or 2.3, where NPCs learned to also equip HRPs. Mind you: it's a base game module again, not connected to engineers. Those also can be engineered up. But unlike the shield stuff, engineering armour or HRPs only adds a percentage of the health of this one item. So it doesn't multiply up as crazily as shields. Resistances of HRPs do stack, but have diminuishing returns and a cap.
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Just by installing HRPs, a ship can gain a lot of health, but the FDL you mention in your example doesn't have the necessary internals for that. Then by good engineering of armour and several HRPs, you can a bit more than double your ships healh again. But as the FLD can't carry enough HRPs, it can't reach that level of durability.
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So i currently am at a loss on what could cause as durable ships as you describe them to be. But i still am convinced that engineering is not the core issue here, as the absolute insanity of defense scaling is in the shields, while hull engineering is significally more moderate. (Sure doubling your health still seems extreme, but considering how many internals you have to fill with HRPs to do that and how much mass you add to your ship by doing that, it's a rather uncommon setup. The price generally outweights the gains and both players and NPCs are be much better off by investing into more shield upgrades. Luckily NPCs don't know that yet and use only low grade engineering. )
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[Navigare Necesse Est]

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Oki, this is more curious. For while i am aware that enemies got much tougher when they have SCBs, i personally haven't experienced a significant improvement of NPC survivability when shields are down before they learned to do power settings.
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Of course this might be related to my preference of the Courier. Its somehwat limited firepower means that shields matter more for me, while i usually kill bigger targets by going for the power plant. That means that my targets usually blow up before even getting to single digits on the hull. (And the changes to NPC power management means that higher rated NPCs now don't shut down and wait to have the PP blown up any more. That's the actual reason why NPCs now take me a bit longer to kill: they keep moving with the PP at zero percent, which makes it much harder to trigger a PP explosion. )
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With that out of the way, it's much easier to upgrade shield survivability than hull survivability by engineering. For shields a number of factors just multiply up, so if NPCs would use highly engineered shields, the forum would be in a rage about it. (Give NPCs similar shields as some players run, and we PvE players would also start synthing ammo in combat, as you couldn't carry enough ammo for even a single kill any more. And this is not as much an overexageration as you might think. )
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For hull survivability, you need better armour and more hull reinforcement packages. Armour choices always were available for NPC, and I think it was 2.2 or 2.3, where NPCs learned to also equip HRPs. Mind you: it's a base game module again, not connected to engineers. Those also can be engineered up. But unlike the shield stuff, engineering armour or HRPs only adds a percentage of the health of this one item. So it doesn't multiply up as crazily as shields. Resistances of HRPs do stack, but have diminuishing returns and a cap.
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Just by installing HRPs, a ship can gain a lot of health, but the FDL you mention in your example doesn't have the necessary internals for that. Then by good engineering of armour and several HRPs, you can a bit more than double your ships healh again. But as the FLD can't carry enough HRPs, it can't reach that level of durability.
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So i currently am at a loss on what could cause as durable ships as you describe them to be. But i still am convinced that engineering is not the core issue here, as the absolute insanity of defense scaling is in the shields, while hull engineering is significally more moderate. (Sure doubling your health still seems extreme, but considering how many internals you have to fill with HRPs to do that and how much mass you add to your ship by doing that, it's a rather uncommon setup. The price generally outweights the gains and both players and NPCs are be much better off by investing into more shield upgrades. Luckily NPCs don't know that yet and use only low grade engineering. )
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It's been over a year. it's been a significantly memorable fight but I can't really say if I remember it correctly. Maybe it was actually the shields that gave me trouble? It definitely took a fair number of recharge cycles to get to the point when I just ended up ramming. iirc my FAS ran with fixed burst lasers.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's been over a year. it's been a significantly memorable fight but I can't really say if I remember it correctly. Maybe it was actually the shields that gave me trouble? It definitely took a fair number of recharge cycles to get to the point when I just ended up ramming. iirc my FAS ran with fixed burst lasers.

Burst laser will not be as effective against hulls. Especially if they have HRP's on as well. Personally I would never go all lasers. I would either go all projectiles or a mixture.