"The game is almost a political and social experiment.”

Jex =TE=

Banned
ED isn't a player story driven game, you are mixing up your genre's. For story driven space sims there's freespace2 and loads of mods., or X-wing.

Subnautica's game world is about three kilometers across (and deep), complete it in hardcore then again just messing about and uninstall until the planned arctic expansion. It's a very good game for about 40/50 hours then you've seen it all. ED is galactic in comparison.

You claimed ED had more content which is completely incorrect. If you can't even work out how it's not bigger just because it models a galaxy is ridiculous to the point of being stupid. You said content - Subnautica has more of it in gameplay, art assets - they handcrafted the game unlike ED with it's boring and repetitive PG using the same planet textures a billion times over.

99.9% ED is empty space, the rest is filled with no variation - same looking solar systems with the exact same space stations and the exact same missions.

Subnautica you could keep playing forever if you wanted as you need to survive - you could carry on base building. What subnautica gets right is that it recognises that it's a limited game unlike ED does and doesn't try to sell itself off as some MMO masterpiece.
 
Subnautuca's good but it's a small game, nowhere near as much content.

ED is what it is there will never be a total rewrite.

Who says that ED needs to be rewritten? Unless the developers are completely out of their minds, the code will have been structured to allow for new content, new mechanics, new gameplay.

Engineers was what it was until they realised we hated it and changed it.
 
As i said, its a good game, but it didn't hold me, i find ED more fun and interesting.

It has way more content than ED

Debatable unless you can find some way of quantifying what you mean.

has and a story to boot.

ED has a stories. The overarching one and your own personal story. It doesn't have a guiding story for individuals, but there again, Subnautica's story isn't particularly guiding either. Sure, it can lead you to an endgame, but otherwise its just a few scripted events that when done are done. Its not exactly a major factor in the game.

It has more graphical assets,

I very much doubt that.

more story,

Wait, you implied ED didn't have a story earlier, plus you are repeating yourself. ED has more spaceships, ED has more spaceships. 2 points to ED!

more immersion,

Both are very immersive games, but whether a particular person finds one or the other more immersive is up to the person. You're trying to speak for everyone here, that doesn't work.

more stuff to work out,

Like what? You unlock stuff by finding stuff and then the game tells you how you make stuff. There is very little to work out. ED has stuff to work out as well, although its sometimes silly in expecting people to work some things out. Plus there are all the mysteries like the signals and stuff that i'd never work out myself, which for me is a bit of a negative with ED.

stuff to read,

Just descriptions of stuff and lore. Doesn't affect gameplay really. ED also has lots of descriptions.

discovery

Over a fairly limited map, which is fixed, and in sandbox mode you can explore the whole map in a few hours. Not much to discover either when everything has already been discovered by other players and posted all over the internet.

- ED is repetition which you've mistaken for content.

Subnautica is a bit of a grind as well, and a lot of repetition in gathering things, especially on survival mode.

Not dissing on Subnautica here, its a pretty good game, but not one that can keep me engaged for thousands of hours like ED. I doubt ill play the game in total for even tens of hours. Just not enough content there for me.
 
After Power Play was released, it was "then I realized" ...... that the devs are clueless.

Yep. This was the first time I had a reverse FTW moment with Elite Dangerous, or more accurately FDEV.

The ludicrous cinematic trailer that accompanied it was just... wrong. It showed the picture of each power with their quotes, some stock footage and some epically disingenuous background music which gave us the ostensible impression that there was something akin to a galactic scale melodrama brewing.. A real power struggle... But no. That was literally the ONLY, SINGLE JPG of those Powers to this day, April 2018... And each power has exactly one weapon and an unnamed and undeveloped power commodity.

Power Play: One solitary JPG and a handful of clichés...

The second was the Engineers... Absolutely no need to discuss that horrific pile of KFTP nonsense.

After that, things just became a bit of a blur, TBH... 10,000 jumps to travel 300kylies around the outer rim was more exciting than Engineers. Ironically, that repeated honksploration was the biggest achievement I've made to date... 10k repetitions of identical gameplay. Never done it before, will probably never do it again.

Currently having a ball playing Dual Universe in their unfortunately NDA covered Pre-Alpha.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
As i said, its a good game, but it didn't hold me, i find ED more fun and interesting.

So you find a shallow, repetitive game with proven bad game mechanics more fun than a game made so well, it hardly has a negative review about it that has deep and well made game mechanics - yes, you do!
 
So you find a shallow, repetitive game with proven bad game mechanics more fun than a game made so well, it hardly has a negative review about it that has deep and well made game mechanics - yes, you do!

Subnautica is incredibly shallow compared to ED. They are both good games in their own right, but ED's a long term keeper Subnautica's a purely short term thing. It's also incredibly easy even on hardcore.
 
99.9% ED is empty space, the rest is filled with no variation - same looking solar systems with the exact same space stations and the exact same missions.

Sometimes I wonder why did they even bothered with procedural galaxy - game would work with separate playable "bubble" just like in beta with no significant issues. I made a trip to Sig A and this made me realized how empty and pointless 99% of this sandbox is. With base building that is so ridiculed around this parts it would make at least some sense but now? Waste of space literally. Harsh I know but thats my opinion, FD need to put game in this 99% of empty space.
 
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Its not a good game, its great space flight sim and the graphics/sound are excellent, but its not a good game.

This has been Elite’s biggest problem since 1.0, it’s a great space sim but it’s not a good “game”. There aren’t enough mechanics to make it very interesting to play, the meat of the game loops are too simple. It’s why so many people felt like the mechanics of S1 were placeholders and that future updates would flesh them out and improve them.

Unfortunately that hasn’t really happened. They’ve added bolt on features but have not really fleshed out any of the core mechanics. USS still operate the same way. HRES and CZ’s are still as much fish in the bowl mechanics as they have always been. Exploration core gameplay is unchanged at all. Trading hasn’t changed one bit except for the new tools (which don’t change HOW trading plays). CG’s haven’t improved at all and actually lost exploration so they got worse. Bounty hunting went back a bit with the KWS nerfs but otherwise has not improved. Piracy got cargo breakers but is now more frustrating than ever due to C&P, and otherwise has not been improved. All of the core ways in which people play the game haven’t changed hardly at all, in four years.

This is what many hoped Beyond would be improving, but so far it hasn’t done much to make the “game” better. Engineering got glossed a bit but they are an addon to the core game, not the meat of it. Guardian ruins got added but contain no meaningful gameplay at all, instead opting for the usual immense grind which Frontier prefers to create. Will the rest of Beyond do anything to improve the core of the game? Hopefully it does, but the track record suggests it really won’t.

I don’t think Frontier realizes what the actual problem with their game is. They keep adding new bolt on things while completely ignoring what the actual issue truly is: the game needs to be improved, not the feature list.

They even miss (or avoid?) obvious opportunities to actually improve the core. Take wing missions for example. They should have been a conversion of the normal missions to “shareable missions”, turning any of these mission types into improved content for both solo and wing players, with shareable yet scalable missions presenting many new options to play the game in various ways. It could have been a great boon to traders, utilizing the cargo depot to allow even traders in small ships to move huge amounts of cargo around. Or allowing bounty hunters who want a good challenge to fly an Elite 4-wing rated assassination mission solo. With fair rewards of course, paying either the full amount to one player of a divided sum to the wing.

However, Frontier missed all of these opportunities, completely. Was it on purpose, or simply by ineptitude? Do they actively avoid improving the core of the game, or is it just a regular mistake?

Which brings us back to the premise of the thread: is the entire Elite Dangerous project just a social experiment? To see how little gameplay a game can contain while still keeping players interested in playing? A mile wide and an inch deep, but instead of adding depth lets just see if we can stretch it out to two miles? Because that’s what Frontier keeps doing, adding more width instead of depth, bolting on separate and segregated content rather than developing anything connected and shared. I don’t know why they avoid fleshing out the mechanics of the core gameplay. Either they don’t want to, or they don’t realize the core needs it.
 
There is definitely some strange ideas going on. Take Galnet for example. If there's one thing that would be easy to fix, it's Galnet, because the main problem with it is just the lack of useful news articles right? FD's solution? Add audio.

(There are some problems you shouldn't ask an engineer to solve).

And ok so the audio is more useful than I expected and I do use it to kill time on my way somewhere. Byt they still haven't addressed the actual lack of content issue.

The thargs smashed a station inside the bubble this week. Not worth a story? Really?
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
Subnautica is incredibly shallow compared to ED. They are both good games in their own right, but ED's a long term keeper Subnautica's a purely short term thing. It's also incredibly easy even on hardcore.

Are you even listening to yourself? Since when was ED ever hard? Subnautica is incredibly shallow and ED isn't? I can't take you seriously anymore your arguments have now moved into the realm of fantasy but only a few days ago you made sense!

One game has outstanding reviews about it's depth of gameplay and immersion

The other has been labelled "a mile wide, inch deep"
 
Are you even listening to yourself? Since when was ED ever hard? Subnautica is incredibly shallow and ED isn't? I can't take you seriously anymore your arguments have now moved into the realm of fantasy but only a few days ago you made sense!

One game has outstanding reviews about it's depth of gameplay and immersion

The other has been labelled "a mile wide, inch deep"

It's OK for me to rate things completely differently to you.
 
Subnautica is incredibly shallow compared to ED. They are both good games in their own right, but ED's a long term keeper Subnautica's a purely short term thing.

Subnautica has a fixed hand crafted world, and yeah it’s much smaller in scale than Elite’s, so naturally it feels “finished” quicker.

However, Subnautica is NOT shallow compared to Elite. While Elite has the larger game world it feels much less populated, and indeed it has much less variation as well. This is why Subnautica is a fantastic exploration game whereas Elite just isn’t. It’s due to how much there is in Subnautica to explore and do, compared to how little there is in Elite to explore and do. Subnautica is engaging and engrossing to explore while Elite is repetitive and so boring to explore that most players feel the need to watch Netflix while they do it. I played Subnautica for 74 hours (so far) and I didn’t ONCE feel the need to watch or do anything else while I did so. Subnautica’s mechanics are well developed and interconnected, the game plays fluidly and never feels disjointed.

Playing Elite is often a very passive and uninteractive experience, while Subnautica is an extremely engaging and very interactive game. If anything, my time with Subnautica has greatly exposed just how SHALLOW Elite actually is, even after four years of development. Pun intended!

Of course this is a subjective topic, some people might find Tetris to be a deeper game than either of these. It all comes down to what you value in a game. Personally I wish Elite was as polished from a game mechanics point of view as Subnautica is. Elite is often labeled a mile wide but an inch deep, then Subnautica is 200 feet wide but 500 feet deep. The exact opposite of “shallow”.

You won’t find any activity in Subnautica that requires you to do a singular activity 48 times to unlock something though. The game greatly respects the player’s time and efforts while Elite goes out of it’s way to disrespect the player’s time, and THIS is the single greatest lesson I wish Frontier could learn.
 
Subnautica has a fixed hand crafted world, and yeah it’s much smaller in scale than Elite’s, so naturally it feels “finished” quicker.

However, Subnautica is NOT shallow compared to Elite. While Elite has the larger game world it feels much less populated, and indeed it has much less variation as well. This is why Subnautica is a fantastic exploration game whereas Elite just isn’t. It’s due to how much there is in Subnautica to explore and do, compared to how little there is in Elite to explore and do. Subnautica is engaging and engrossing to explore while Elite is repetitive and so boring to explore that most players feel the need to watch Netflix while they do it. I played Subnautica for 74 hours (so far) and I didn’t ONCE feel the need to watch or do anything else while I did so. Subnautica’s mechanics are well developed and interconnected, the game plays fluidly and never feels disjointed.

Playing Elite is often a very passive and uninteractive experience, while Subnautica is an extremely engaging and very interactive game. If anything, my time with Subnautica has greatly exposed just how SHALLOW Elite actually is, even after four years of development. Pun intended!

Of course this is a subjective topic, some people might find Tetris to be a deeper game than either of these. It all comes down to what you value in a game. Personally I wish Elite was as polished from a game mechanics point of view as Subnautica is. Elite is often labeled a mile wide but an inch deep, then Subnautica is 200 feet wide but 500 feet deep. The exact opposite of “shallow”.

You won’t find any activity in Subnautica that requires you to do a singular activity 48 times to unlock something though. The game greatly respects the player’s time and efforts while Elite goes out of it’s way to disrespect the player’s time, and THIS is the single greatest lesson I wish Frontier could learn.

All games are a timesink.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Sometimes I wonder why did they even bothered with procedural galaxy - game would work with separate playable "bubble" just like in beta with no significant issues. I made a trip to Sig A and this made me realized how empty and pointless 99% of this sandbox is. With base building that is so ridiculed around this parts it would make at least some sense but now? Waste of space literally. Harsh I know but thats my opinion, FD need to put game in this 99% of empty space.


I think that's down to Braben's love of astronomy more than anything else - how about the same galaxy but with stuff IN it? Maybe instead of 4 years wasted development on MC, CQC, ENG, TG's that we had it on making a living breathing universe with Power Play an actual game and Wings working amazingly with player discoveries helping the rest of the players e.g. huge Asteroids of gold that causes a massive gold rush (rather than a forum post telling everyone of a new exploit?)

Things like this, from their own marketing video....

Minage-trailer.jpg


Or this, from their own Kickstarter page...

Elite-Dangerous-wallpaper-8.jpg


And what ever happened to the Scavenger Hunt?

[video=youtube;44K9bnjcUSc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=68&v=44K9bnjcUSc[/video]


and OH MY DEAR GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS????????

[video=youtube;5uKD1ap5hsI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=92&v=5uKD1ap5hsI[/video]

And that's "only a mundane example" Brabens own words!

Anyone who says the Kickstarter goals have been met need to watch the video's IN the kickstarter...

omg blockades?? Stations being built with scalfolding, dignitaries opening it, taxiing them there, assasination contracts popping up "but that's just a mundane example"
 
I don’t think Frontier realizes what the actual problem with their game is. They keep adding new bolt on things while completely ignoring what the actual issue truly is: the game needs to be improved, not the feature list.
This is my concern for the Q4 update.
I really want to believe that the Exploration update and additional planetary improvements will be a boon to gameplay, and will be what I've been looking for all these years.
Then my head tells my heart "wake up man!", and I think the exploration update will be some basic bolt-on mechanics, and will be overshadowed by the new Squadrons headliner feature, which will be a complete mess and will fall totally flat.

I really hope I'm wrong, but have a sinking feeling I won't be. :(
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Stationing warships in a system to fight over minerals??? LMAO

This gives us an "inkling" to what we can expect? These are Brabens own words and yet, his KS "inkling" is more detailed than what we have now but it was "just an inkling of what's to come" so in other words he was playing it down and it still sounded amazing.

Can't wait to try mining under an enemy warship that's there to stop me whilst a war rages on above...
 
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Anyone who says the Kickstarter goals have been met need to watch the video's IN the kickstarter...

I hate to agree with you, but I do so. I think David Braben's vision was there and although it is easy to blame Sandy as the the lead designer, the DDF showed that he too had big visions for the game. The problem came in the conversion of those ideas to deliverables in the hands of the users. Ultimately, it would have been the Programme Manager (or gaming indsustry equivalent) that decided what should be delivered; that is where the fault for Elite Dangerous' issues lies IMO.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
I hate to agree with you, but I do so. I think David Braben's vision was there and although it is easy to blame Sandy as the the lead designer, the DDF showed that he too had big visions for the game. The problem came in the conversion of those ideas to deliverables in the hands of the users. Ultimately, it would have been the Programme Manager (or gaming indsustry equivalent) that decided what should be delivered; that is where the fault for Elite Dangerous' issues lies IMO.

Braben clearly had a vision, just the fact that he explains what he wants, which sounds great, and then follows up with "but that's a mundane example" - so what he actually has in mind must be mindblowing, and then none of it emerged which is a bit weird when you think about it.
 
Not dissing on Subnautica here, its a pretty good game, but not one that can keep me engaged for thousands of hours like ED. I doubt ill play the game in total for even tens of hours. Just not enough content there for me.

But if you honestly look at the hours you spend in ED, most of it is loading screens or waiting for things to happen, like USS spawning. Subnautica is much more engaging as there's more activities and things that require to player to decide and react with.
 
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